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cab
Joined: 01 Nov 2004
Posts: 30158
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 Posted: Wed Aug 09, 06 6:01 pm Post subject: BIG investment in biofuels |
 
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Thumping great chunk of money to be invested by BP in biofuels:
http://www.bp.com/genericarticle.do?categoryId=2012968&contentId=7018719
Basically they're after getting something major in biobutanol (which offers some distinct advantages over bioethanol and biodiesel) as well as getting a whole load of extra ideas generated.
Of course, while its an astonishing sum of money to be thrown at one institute, and therefore a serious, serious undertaking, its still only approximately nine days of profit for BP. |
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Penny
Downsizer Moderator
Joined: 18 Sep 2005
Posts: 17633
Location: Planet, not on the....
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| Posted: Wed Aug 09, 06 6:07 pm Post subject: Re: BIG investment in biofuels |
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| cab wrote: |
| Of course, while its an astonishing sum of money to be thrown at one institute, and therefore a serious, serious undertaking, its still only approximately nine days of profit for BP. |
It is good news that they are trying, but as you say, the figure, as compared to their profits, does put it into perspective a little.
I suppose they really have to do something looking into the future, when there will be diminishing oil supplies. Where will their profits come from then  |
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Treacodactyl
Downsizer Moderator
Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 19592
Location: In the pond with the frogs
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| Posted: Wed Aug 09, 06 6:26 pm Post subject: |
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Mmmn, so that's about £25m a year from a company that made £11.04bn profit last year? Shockingly small amount of money IMO. |
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dpack
Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 13800
Location: w yorks /earth
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| Posted: Wed Aug 09, 06 7:51 pm Post subject: |
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greenwashing or trying , the debate continues . |
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Penny
Downsizer Moderator
Joined: 18 Sep 2005
Posts: 17633
Location: Planet, not on the....
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| Posted: Wed Aug 09, 06 7:54 pm Post subject: |
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| dpack wrote: |
| greenwashing or trying , the debate continues . |
I think economic necessity is the more likely motive |
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Treacodactyl
Downsizer Moderator
Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 19592
Location: In the pond with the frogs
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| Posted: Wed Aug 09, 06 7:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Penny wrote: |
| dpack wrote: |
| greenwashing or trying , the debate continues . |
I think economic necessity is the more likely motive |
Then why not spend a bit more rather than 0.0000000025% of your annual profit? (Sorry if there are too many or few 0s). |
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Penny
Downsizer Moderator
Joined: 18 Sep 2005
Posts: 17633
Location: Planet, not on the....
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| Posted: Wed Aug 09, 06 8:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Treacodactyl wrote: |
| Penny wrote: |
| dpack wrote: |
| greenwashing or trying , the debate continues . |
I think economic necessity is the more likely motive |
Then why not spend a bit more rather than 0.0000000025% of your annual profit? (Sorry if there are too many or few 0s). |
whatever, it's lots and lots of 0s. I agree, they could do so much more, but it's a start. |
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dpack
Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 13800
Location: w yorks /earth
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| Posted: Wed Aug 09, 06 8:18 pm Post subject: |
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bp's chairman was on the radio a while back ,plausible chap , know them by their deeds not their words .
we will see how this develops but when huge amounts of cash can be made destructivly it will happen ,the arms trade for instance or selling heroin or ..... |
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Treacodactyl
Downsizer Moderator
Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 19592
Location: In the pond with the frogs
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| Posted: Wed Aug 09, 06 9:12 pm Post subject: |
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Well at least it's better publicity than some of the recent oil spills in Alaska such as this: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/5057954.stm
Can't help feeling that there's money available to look after such delicate ecosystmes better as well as invest in alternatives. |
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cab
Joined: 01 Nov 2004
Posts: 30158
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| Posted: Wed Aug 09, 06 10:12 pm Post subject: |
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Far be it from me to be the defender of the petrochemical industry, but this isn't a lone development. BP have also got involved with Du Pont, my understanding (which may be flawed) is that they're making butanol by the old fashioned Clostridium fermentation method, presumably trying to get better yields than used to be the case. Butanol is favoured because you can pump it straight into a car engine; it isn't the mose efficient fuel you can make, it isn't the best way of getting energy out of plant material, but it is a fuel you can pump through your existing pipe infrastructure and sell to motorists.
Make no mistake, petrochemical companies are taking this seriously. |
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dougal
Joined: 15 Jan 2005
Posts: 7184
Location: South Kent
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| Posted: Wed Aug 09, 06 11:11 pm Post subject: |
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| cab wrote: |
... Butanol is favoured because you can pump it straight into a car engine; it isn't the mose efficient fuel you can make, it isn't the best way of getting energy out of plant material, but it is a fuel you can pump through your existing pipe infrastructure and sell to motorists.
Make no mistake, petrochemical companies are taking this seriously. |
Seems BP, DuPont and British Sugar are setting up to *manufacture* butanol in 2007.
And that the advantage over ethanol is primarily in energy density.
http://www.autoindustry.co.uk/press_releases/20-06-06
Remember that ethanol (and butanol) are primarily biofuels for petrol engines, while biodiesel suits... diesels! |
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cab
Joined: 01 Nov 2004
Posts: 30158
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| Posted: Wed Aug 09, 06 11:24 pm Post subject: |
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That isn't the only advantage. Butanol sops up less water than ethanol does, so you can store it drier. It also works pretty much as is as a petrol substitute
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Remember that ethanol (and butanol) are primarily biofuels for petrol engines, while biodiesel suits... diesels! |
Also true... And they're the fuels that companies will be looking at for the next 10-15 years, so the processes for making them as cleanly and efficiently as possible are going to be big business.
Making butanol by fermentation ain't new, of course, its been around for years; Weizmann did it commercially first, I think (he was making acetone, which you get from the same fermentation). Hasn't been done much in years 'cos its been cheaper to get butanol from oil. Thats all changing now, and theres a lot of catching up to be done in making that process work better. And it ain't just the fermentation process, there'll be a lot of work done in improving crops to turn them into better feestocks, and looking for other ways of getting useful fuel out of them. |
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MarkS
Joined: 01 Aug 2006
Posts: 2577
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| Posted: Thu Aug 10, 06 7:40 am Post subject: |
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seems an appropriate amount of money for what they are doing. pointless shoving billions into research without any control. they are setting up an institute to do research - I would expect that further funding would be forthcoming depending on the results of the research.
Be more interesting to have some more details on thje direction of the research. |
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cab
Joined: 01 Nov 2004
Posts: 30158
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| Posted: Thu Aug 10, 06 8:25 am Post subject: |
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| MarkS wrote: |
Be more interesting to have some more details on thje direction of the research. |
It would, wouldn't it? But as yet there isn't any real info on that, it'll depend on where it goes.
There's a good bit of work done in the American mid-west, think its Columbia, where they've done a sort of two stage Clostridium fermentation with the first only capable of producing butyric acid and hydrogen, the second converting that to butanol (so you can't get much acetone or ethanol made, which is good), looks like two trickling bed reactors. Nice. I think the smart money is that the research will include crop development (marginal land crops, maximising yield of feedstock, etc.), fermentation research (which will necessarily include some genomics and lots of microbiology and sensors work) and separation technology (its a complex materials problem)... But for half a billion dollars you get a hell of a lot more than that, and its in those more esoteric research proposals that the real excitement will come. |
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Blue Peter
Joined: 21 Mar 2005
Posts: 2175
Location: Milton Keynes
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| Posted: Thu Aug 10, 06 10:43 am Post subject: |
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| cab wrote: |
| I think the smart money is that the research will include crop development (marginal land crops, maximising yield of feedstock, etc.) |
What does marginal land mean in this case?
Peter. |
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