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Porky

Joined: 06 Nov 2009
Posts: 14

Posted: Sat Nov 07, 09 3:37 pm Post subject:

even if the land doesn't have an address, if it has ever been used for agricultural purposes it should have a CPH

not sure what you mean about renting on a seasonal basis and transferring etc. - surely the only use of the holding number would be on licences moving animals to and fro? am i being thick??

its the herd mark that identifies you to your animals isnt it?

i understand the next bit - we have 460 acres with 3 holding numbers as it is used by seperate tenants and of course if it were on one CPH we would constantly be putting each other on standstill.

when i said 'dodgy' i was meaning if someone fills a form in , puts '0' in the acreage box and then states that they wish to keep livestock

Nat S

Joined: 15 Aug 2008
Posts: 3610
Location: York

Posted: Sat Nov 07, 09 3:56 pm Post subject:

Porky wrote:

Not all land has been used for ag. purposes though so pieces could exist that don't have holding numbers - woodlands for example.

You need a holding number before you get a herd number - if holding numbers only went to landowners, everyone else would not be allowed a herd number.

If you have cattle, you have to have passports and they stay with the KEEPER not the OWNER and the movements are noted in there. So you'd merrily fill in the passport to denote that the cattle were on so-and-so's land - hey presto, they just gained themselves free cattle! How can you prove they are yours if the landowner's name/number is the one in the passport, and they are the one with it in their hand? With other livestock, what would go on the eartags? Who would do the paperwork? If something bad was found to be going on, who'd take the flack in the eyes of the law?

If you have multiple holding numbers on one property, you are all subject to each other's standstills if you 'share facilities' (shared grazing, buildings etc).

Anyone who rents land would be classed as 'dodgy'.

Rob R

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 16803
Location: York

Posted: Sat Nov 07, 09 4:53 pm Post subject:

It may be useful at this point to take a look at the RPA website

RPA wrote:

How do I apply for a CPH number for land in England?

* Ring the Customer Service Centre on 0845 603 7777.
* Choose the Customer Registration option.
* Choose the next option based on the type of registration you require.

Explain to the Customer Service Centre operator why you need a CPH number. They will check to see if we already have your details. If we do not, they will ask you for some information to check whether or not you need a CPH number and what type of CPH number you require. We will write to you when this has happened and tell you what the CPH number is. If you need the number urgently for moving animals we will ring you to let you know the number as well as sending you a letter.

What information do you need when I apply for a CPH number?
When you ring the Customer Service Centre we will ask you for:

* SBI (if you are already registered with us)
* Organisation Name
* Land Location - Postcode or OS Grid Reference(s)
* Tenure (e.g. owner, owner/occupier, tenant 365 days or more and tenant 364 days or less)
* Activities (e.g. cattle keeper)
* Contact Details

We will also ask you to give any other information you think is relevant and which may affect the CPH allocation.

Do I need / can I have a CPH number for horses?
You don’t need a CPH number specifically for horses but, if you are a horse owner who wishes to claim the Single Payment Scheme you do need a CPH number. If you want to register a horse then you need to contact the relevant breed society.

What is the 5/10 mile rule for CPH allocations?
The five mile rule applies to all sheep and goat keepers and simply means all land within a five mile radius of the main Place of Business is covered by one holding number, it doesn’t need a separate CPH number. The five mile distance is measured as a straight line from the main site and any outlying land that is within five miles of the main site (either fully or partially) is all considered to be the main holding. Only land outside this boundary needs a separate CPH number.

The ten mile rule applies to all livestock keepers, excluding sheep and goat keepers. The ten mile rule works the same way as the five mile rule.

Animal Health / trading standards / BCMS say that I need an additional CPH for temporary grazing, but the 5/10 mile rule suggests I don’t, so what do I do?
If you claim SPS and have extra bits of land you use for temporary grass keep that would fall within the 5/10 mile rule, then you will need a temporary CPH number. This is for cross compliance purposes.
We would assign you a CPH number from the 7000 series to cover this temporary grazing.

I keep animals on someone else’s land, do I need my own CPH?
Yes you do, if you are responsible for the animals. The CPH will link your record to the animals and the land area.

bring me sunshine

Joined: 13 Jan 2009
Posts: 1929
Location: Somerset

Posted: Sat Nov 07, 09 5:15 pm Post subject:

Ixy wrote:

bring me sunshine wrote:

Ixy wrote:

One easy example for me is that of the pigs we have in outdoor pens behind an electric fence. It seems that once they have got used to the fence, we can't possibly get them over the line where the fence was for love nor money. It takes forever to convince them, and no matter how much they look or how much we cross the line, or put food out or whatever, they just don't seem to learn, even though they are moved every week or so.

I'm not jealous.... I'm not jealous....

no, you're really not! Or if you are, next time we have to move 'em, you can give it a go!!

Ha! I left the fence off for what, an hour and a half this afternoon? Came back to find my young boar grazing on the wrong side, looking very pleased with himself. Luckily the piglets didn't follow him

bring me sunshine

Joined: 13 Jan 2009
Posts: 1929
Location: Somerset

Posted: Sat Nov 07, 09 5:19 pm Post subject:

Porky wrote:

her banner on facebook read 'Wendy S...'

Is it wrong that I thought I recognised Buzz in your profile pic?

BadgerFace

Joined: 25 Mar 2009
Posts: 330
Location: Sunny Sussex

Posted: Sat Nov 07, 09 5:54 pm Post subject:

And to cloud the CPH matter further, I found this on DEFRA's web guide to Pig Identification...

Quote:

Paperless registration of pet keepers

There are increasing numbers of people who keep one or two animals as pets, for example pot bellied pigs, who find they need to comply with animal movement legislation and therefore require a CPH number. In the past they have had to go through the same procedure as our other customers to register with us. However this has now changed.

For those customers who are only keeping animals as pets and do not take part in any of the schemes administered by the RPA or for which RPA make payment, registration can be completed over the phone and a CReg 01 will not need to be completed. This new procedure started on 1 August 2008.

So it seems if you want to keep a pet pig one simple phone call is all it takes ?

Porky

Joined: 06 Nov 2009
Posts: 14

Posted: Sat Nov 07, 09 6:44 pm Post subject:

well done badgerface, pity you didn't come up with that one a bit earlier !

must learn how to do that quote thing on this forum - can anyone give me a quick lesson?

no, you didn't recognise Buzz on my profile pic, that's me and Sue

We are definitely not subject to standstill on the other CPH no's on our land, i've had loads of paperwork checks over the years and its never been a problem

[/quote]

Porky

Joined: 06 Nov 2009
Posts: 14

Posted: Sat Nov 07, 09 6:49 pm Post subject:
must learn how to do that quote thing on this forum - can anyone give me a quick lesson? just worked it out!

Rob R

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 16803
Location: York

Posted: Sat Nov 07, 09 6:55 pm Post subject:

Porky wrote:

must learn how to do that quote thing on this forum - can anyone give me a quick lesson?

Just ensure that anything you want to quote is

Code:

[quote]written between the two quote functions, like so[/quote]

If you press the quote button in the 'Post a reply' window it puts the start quote function in [quote ] and an asterisk appears on the button, press it again, the asterisk disappears and it puts the end quote function in [/ quote]

If you type in ="the name of the source you wish to quote" after the word 'quote' into the start function, it will add their name in, as below:

Code:

[quote="Rob R"][/quote]

Edit: well done!

Nat S

Joined: 15 Aug 2008
Posts: 3610
Location: York

Posted: Sat Nov 07, 09 7:38 pm Post subject:

Porky wrote:

We are definitely not subject to standstill on the other CPH no's on our land, i've had loads of paperwork checks over the years and its never been a problem

do you share facilities?

Porky

Joined: 06 Nov 2009
Posts: 14

Posted: Sat Nov 07, 09 8:38 pm Post subject:
not sure what you mean - we have a farm, 15 acres of its mine with my holding number, 4 acres of it is rented by a bloke who has a holding number for that bit and the other 430 odd acres are farmed by another bloke under another holding number.

bring me sunshine

Joined: 13 Jan 2009
Posts: 1929
Location: Somerset

Posted: Sun Nov 08, 09 8:53 am Post subject:

Porky wrote:

no, you didn't recognise Buzz on my profile pic, that's me and Sue

Jools

Joined: 28 Jul 2006
Posts: 147
Location: South Wales

Posted: Mon Nov 09, 09 8:15 pm Post subject:

bring me sunshine wrote:

Jools, you're more than welcome to come over to meet mine, so you can see what they're like in the flesh, especially in the wet with all this rain!

I would love to. Thanks.

I'll pm you.

Jools

Joined: 28 Jul 2006
Posts: 147
Location: South Wales

Posted: Tue Nov 10, 09 9:29 am Post subject:

Shan wrote:

Jools wrote:

I'm not trying to cause an argument, just curious about how people who are aware of decent animal husbandry can eat the animals that they've named.

I name my pigs and yes, I give them affection and yes, I have every intention of eating them. I want them to have a good fullfilling life. Who says that an animal destined to become meat, should not have attention or even affection? Surely, it is crueler to buy some anonymous lump of meat?

I quite agree with you. It's just that I think I'd become too attached to them. You know, in my head it all makes perfect sense, but my heart would over-rule my head!

Ixy wrote:

I'm just wondering if this just applied to pigs with you, or other intelligent creatures too? To be perfectly honest, from my work training cattle I would put them as intelligent, if not moreso, than a german shepherd and certainly as intelligent as a pig. Mine have learnt things in a fraction of the time it took the dog to learn a comparable trick. They are also as affectionate with me as the pigs - they love a belly/back rub as much as the pigs do and will come away from the rest of the herd to get one.

One easy example for me is that of the pigs we have in outdoor pens behind an electric fence. It seems that once they have got used to the fence, we can't possibly get them over the line where the fence was for love nor money. It takes forever to convince them, and no matter how much they look or how much we cross the line, or put food out or whatever, they just don't seem to learn, even though they are moved every week or so.

Whereas when I first started paddocking the oxen behind an electric wire, when the fence came down the first time and I attempted to lead them over the line, they hesitated but when they saw me cross, obviously assumed it was fine and followed - not even a food bribe involved.

Nope, not just pigs. I'd feel the same with any animal. That's interesting about how the two different animals reacted to your moving the fence.

To be honest with you, I don't think that I'd eat meat even if I did sort out my head and heart. Mum said I was never very keen on meat when I did eat it (which is probably why I found it so easy to give it up) and the few times I've tried little bits since then, I didn't like the taste nor the feeling it left in my mouth afterwards.
But, as I said, I'm quite happy to cook it for my family, so it's important to me that it's good meat and I'm so glad that more people are rearing animals in a good environment.

Chez

Joined: 13 Aug 2006
Posts: 15151
Location: Quantock Hills, Somerset

Posted: Tue Nov 10, 09 11:16 am Post subject:

Jools wrote:

I quite agree with you. It's just that I think I'd become too attached to them. You know, in my head it all makes perfect sense, but my heart would over-rule my head!

It's hard to start with, but you get used to it. And it helps if you have an arrangement with someone where they help you with yours and you help them with theirs. Moral support and all that. And a big freezer means that you can leave the bits for a few months and don't then think 'Oh, we're eating Mable'.

I think that if you get to the point where it's enjoyable you are probably a bit psychotic.

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