|
|
 |
Author |
|
| Message | |
|
cab
Joined: 01 Nov 2004
Posts: 30158
|
 Posted: Thu Nov 12, 09 5:15 pm Post subject: Electric car article |
 
|
News reports of this have appeared all over the place, but the one in the Independent is particularly good.
http://www.independent.co.uk/environment/climate-change/undercurrent-of-doubt-over-electric-motors-1819016.html
| Quote: |
| The ETA report stresses that electric cars are only really green if they are using electricity produced by renewable energy systems such as wind power. And it goes on to point out that, under new binding EU targets for cutting car CO2 emissions agreed last December, carmakers can sell up to 3.5 SUVs for every zero-carbon electric vehicle they sell and still reach their official EU target. |
|
|
|
|
 |
RichardW
Joined: 24 Aug 2006
Posts: 5724
Location: Llyn Peninsular North Wales
|
| Posted: Thu Nov 12, 09 6:38 pm Post subject: |
|
Just what I have been saying about the elec used in elec cars. |
|
|
|
|
Silas
Joined: 29 Oct 2004
Posts: 6848
Location: Staffordshire
|
| Posted: Thu Nov 12, 09 6:41 pm Post subject: |
|
I can't believe that you could be so wrong.
There are so many good things about electric cars,I can't see why they are not embraced with open arms. |
|
|
|
|
cab
Joined: 01 Nov 2004
Posts: 30158
|
| Posted: Thu Nov 12, 09 6:47 pm Post subject: |
|
| Silas wrote: |
I can't believe that you could be so wrong.
There are so many good things about electric cars,I can't see why they are not embraced with open arms. |
Good such as..? Really, if the electricity isn't sustainably generated, they ain't that great. Small impact on particulate pollution and maybe a small gain in energy consumption, but not a great deal as things stand.
And if the claim in that article regarding use of electric cars as a means to be allowed to manufacture gas guzzlers is correct, well, its worse than I thought. |
|
|
|
|
vegplot
Joined: 19 Apr 2007
Posts: 11138
|
| Posted: Thu Nov 12, 09 6:50 pm Post subject: |
|
| cab wrote: |
| Good such as..? Really, if the electricity isn't sustainably generated, they ain't that great. |
Don't forget Silas is a supporter of nuclear power. |
|
|
|
|
cab
Joined: 01 Nov 2004
Posts: 30158
|
| Posted: Thu Nov 12, 09 6:52 pm Post subject: |
|
| vegplot wrote: |
| cab wrote: |
| Good such as..? Really, if the electricity isn't sustainably generated, they ain't that great. |
Don't forget Silas is a supporter of nuclear power. |
In the short term so am I. |
|
|
|
|
RichardW
Joined: 24 Aug 2006
Posts: 5724
Location: Llyn Peninsular North Wales
|
| Posted: Thu Nov 12, 09 6:56 pm Post subject: |
|
The amount of fuel used to miles covered (like MPG for a standard car) is terrible for an elec car. Till more (all) elec is "greener" that wont improve. Then add in the fact that elec storage is still a long way from being "ready for market" due to weight, total life before replacement, losses, cost, pollution, speed of charge, mileage on one charge, risk of user charging abuse causing early failure.
Thats without the problems of the four fold increase in elec needed (when we should be reducing comsumption) that the existing power station just cant provide (nor do we have the fuel to power them) & the grid cant distribute.
When (if) they crack those then it might be the answer. |
|
|
|
|
vegplot
Joined: 19 Apr 2007
Posts: 11138
|
| Posted: Thu Nov 12, 09 7:02 pm Post subject: |
|
Electric cars are the future, I'm sure of that but what we're really debating is not the motive force but the way it's generated. |
|
|
|
|
cab
Joined: 01 Nov 2004
Posts: 30158
|
| Posted: Thu Nov 12, 09 7:03 pm Post subject: |
|
| vegplot wrote: |
| Electric cars are the future, I'm sure of that |
Why? |
|
|
|
|
vegplot
Joined: 19 Apr 2007
Posts: 11138
|
| Posted: Thu Nov 12, 09 7:13 pm Post subject: |
|
| cab wrote: |
| vegplot wrote: |
| Electric cars are the future, I'm sure of that |
Why? |
For a variety of reasons but mainly because of the adaptability of the electric motor.
I would hope to see a radical change in the future of motoring with more emphasis on regional strategic public transport systems and cars performing a much more localised solution using smaller vehicles, better social infrastructure to reduce the need to travel to work and encourage the reduced of frenetic traffic volumes to more manageable levels. |
|
|
|
|
cab
Joined: 01 Nov 2004
Posts: 30158
|
| Posted: Thu Nov 12, 09 7:16 pm Post subject: |
|
| vegplot wrote: |
For a variety of reasons but mainly because of the adaptability of the electric motor.
I would hope to see a radical change in the future of motoring with more emphasis on regional strategic public transport systems and cars performing a much more localised solution using smaller vehicles, better social infrastructure to reduce the need to travel to work and encourage the reduced of frenetic traffic volumes to more manageable levels. |
When it comes down to it, the volume of vehicles moving about on our roads is unsustainable however you power them (unless we crack fusion or something). So in that electric cars would have to be part of a wider solution, I agree. |
|
|
|
|
vegplot
Joined: 19 Apr 2007
Posts: 11138
|
| Posted: Thu Nov 12, 09 7:40 pm Post subject: |
|
| cab wrote: |
| When it comes down to it, the volume of vehicles moving about on our roads is unsustainable |
Assuming we don't raise the overall efficiency of transport of things then yes agree entirely. |
|
|
|
|
Jonnyboy
Joined: 29 Oct 2004
Posts: 22812
Location: location, location
|
| Posted: Fri Nov 13, 09 10:12 am Post subject: |
|
Two points.
1. Nobody criticises low voltage electric bulbs for using electricity. We simply recognise that generation methods need to be improved regardless.
2. The debate on efficiency has been done to death, it's simple duffusion and adoption (in a business sense). The more people who adopt the technology will drive the further technological advancement. Is anyone putting of purchasing their first mobile phone until it is the size of a credit card?
EDIT: Third point. SUV is a particularly provocative term. The article starts of talking about cars producing co2 like SUV's and then finishes with the statement that they can produce ''up to 3.5 SUVs''. I would like to see if the agreement actually refers to SUV's specifically. |
|
|
|
|
RichardW
Joined: 24 Aug 2006
Posts: 5724
Location: Llyn Peninsular North Wales
|
| Posted: Fri Nov 13, 09 10:34 am Post subject: |
|
| Jonnyboy wrote: |
Two points.
1. Nobody criticises low voltage electric bulbs for using electricity. We simply recognise that generation methods need to be improved regardless.
2. The debate on efficiency has been done to death, it's simple duffusion and adoption (in a business sense). The more people who adopt the technology will drive the further technological advancement. Is anyone putting of purchasing their first mobile phone until it is the size of a credit card?
|
Thats because
1, low energy bulbs use LESS energy than what they replace. Elec cars use MORE energy than what they replace.
2, No but then the first mobile phone was better than what it replaced (no mobile phone). The elec car is not better than what it is trying to replace so there for it is not ready to market. They should be doing research & development & not be selling the flawed current product. OK they need money to do that & they are trying to get it by selling the existing product but that is not how good business should be done. Invent, R&D, make, test it then sell it when it works better than the item its replacing. To many companies now release goods onto the market that have not had the R&D phase done at all let alone properly. |
|
|
|
|
Jonnyboy
Joined: 29 Oct 2004
Posts: 22812
Location: location, location
|
| Posted: Fri Nov 13, 09 11:39 pm Post subject: |
|
| RichardW wrote: |
1, low energy bulbs use LESS energy than what they replace. Elec cars use MORE energy than what they replace.
2, No but then the first mobile phone was better than what it replaced (no mobile phone). The elec car is not better than what it is trying to replace so there for it is not ready to market. They should be doing research & development & not be selling the flawed current product. OK they need money to do that & they are trying to get it by selling the existing product but that is not how good business should be done. Invent, R&D, make, test it then sell it when it works better than the item its replacing. To many companies now release goods onto the market that have not had the R&D phase done at all let alone properly. |
1. I'd dispute that, an electric car or a petrol car of the same weight requires the same amount of energy to propel it. If you want to add in generation impact then you need to equate in the impact of drilling, extracting and refining oil to balance the equation. And of course one thing electricity generation can become is more efficient.
2. Sorry, but you are fundamentally misunderstanding the nature of business. You may wish to wait for an efficient hydrogen fuel cell before electric cars are sold, but when one is developed it will become available a damn sight sooner because electric cars are being developed and sold now. |
|
|
|
|
|
View Latest Posts