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pricey

Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Posts: 6444

Posted: Tue Jan 17, 06 1:13 am Post subject:
If you use 3 in 1 tablets, don't use rince aid. This clogs the pump as rince aid is in the tablet, I know this from personal experience, I have 88 machines to look after

Will

Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Posts: 571
Location: Grenoside, Sheffield

Posted: Tue Jan 17, 06 9:28 am Post subject:

Interesting academic study here on the point where it becomes worthwhile to replace an appliance.

Depending on the method of assessment, the energy consumed in producing and distributing washing machines is suggested to be between 12 and 53% of the environmental impact of the appliance over a 15 year life. What it doesn't show is a direct comparison in energy consumption between dishwashers and hand washing.

Behemoth

Joined: 01 Dec 2004
Posts: 19023
Location: Leeds

Posted: Tue Jan 17, 06 10:05 am Post subject:

Back in the 80's and early 90's dishwashers were the devils work being massively inefficient. Good models now are water and energy efficient. Their impact now is in how they are used.

Many of the two bedroomed flats we have going up everywhere around here are equiped with a family size dishwasher as part of the package even though the flat isn't built for families. So although the machine may be efficient it will be used inefficently.

Taking in the whole life costs I think (but don't know) that a pressed steel bowl filled with hot water and a pair of marigolds will still have the edge.

jema
Downsizer Moderator

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 28120
Location: escaped from Swindon

Posted: Tue Jan 17, 06 10:14 am Post subject:

Behemoth wrote:

Taking in the whole life costs I think (but don't know) that a pressed steel bowl filled with hot water and a pair of marigolds will still have the edge.

But how many people hand wash efficiently?

judith

Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Posts: 22789
Location: Montgomeryshire

Posted: Tue Jan 17, 06 10:17 am Post subject:
The rate I get through Marigolds, I would probably find that a dishwasher is more cost-effective.

Behemoth

Joined: 01 Dec 2004
Posts: 19023
Location: Leeds

Posted: Tue Jan 17, 06 10:19 am Post subject:
Hmm.....

puffedpride

Joined: 05 Nov 2005
Posts: 300
Location: bristol

Posted: Tue Jan 17, 06 10:20 am Post subject:

Thanks Will for sharing about the dishwasher production costs (environmentally). It's such a wide range though...12%-53%, which makes it hard to really establish if in general handwashing still has the environmental edge (if dishwashers are efficiently used).

Did those figures also include repair and disposal impacts?

Sorry to keep slapping all you dishwasher users across the face with a pair of marigolds like this

Fee

Joined: 21 Mar 2005
Posts: 15922
Location: Earth

Posted: Tue Jan 17, 06 10:39 am Post subject:

Bugs wrote:

We've started using Ecover tablets, assume they are a bit better than Tesco's own etc, and they are good, in fact I only use half a one. Much better than their washing up liquid or clothes washing stuff. Dunno whether the salt or rinse aid are a problem though

We use the ecover dishwasher tablets too, and I've found that they don't get dishes as clean as the big brand tablets, in fact, I'm getting sick of having to wash bits of muck off my stuff after it's been through the dishwasher. I'm sure they'd be fine if we did a pre-wash rinse, but I don't want to get into that habit of using more water than necessary.

ele

Joined: 05 Sep 2005
Posts: 814
Location: Derby

Posted: Tue Jan 17, 06 10:40 am Post subject:

Behemoth wrote:

Many of the two bedroomed flats we have going up everywhere around here are equiped with a family size dishwasher as part of the package even though the flat isn't built for families. So although the machine may be efficient it will be used inefficently.

I live in a two person household and we have a normal (family) sized dishwasher that does get full everyday if I've been doing any amount of proper cooking

Will

Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Posts: 571
Location: Grenoside, Sheffield

Posted: Tue Jan 17, 06 10:53 am Post subject:

The range from 12% to 53% is for the same appliance (an AAB rated washing machine), calculated according to three different bases.

Based on the total electrical energy consumed over the life of the machine, from raw material extraction through production, distribution, use, maintenance and disposal, the phase up to arrival with end user is 12% of the total.

If other factors such as scarcity of materials, environmental impact of extraction, pollutants created in the production process, pollutants created in use, etc, etc are included in an analysis of the whole life, the impact of the phase up to end user rises to up to 53% of the total, depending on the weighting used.

The point this illustrates is that energy usage is only part of the impact of a product - arguably if entirely renewable energy sources were used, the energy impact could be considerably reduced.

The aim of the study was to estimate mathematically the point at which it becomes environmentally desirable to replace an appliance - i.e. the overall impact of replacing an existing product with a new one is less than continuing to use the old one. On a purely energy based calculation (with an assumption as to how much more efficient the new appliance is) it appears that regular replacement is desirable. However if all the other environmental impact factors are taken into account, the improvement in efficiency required for replacement to be desirable is far higher, and replacement is unlikely to have a positive impact.

None of this has anything to do with whether dishwashing is more or less environmentally damaging than hand washing, but it's an interesting twist on working out how to limit our impact.

Behemoth

Joined: 01 Dec 2004
Posts: 19023
Location: Leeds

Posted: Tue Jan 17, 06 10:55 am Post subject:

Much of the new property round here is destined for the young professional, student, rental market. The area has gone from a vibrant community to one that supports dozens of takeaways and bars. the local small Somerfield has almost disposed of real food and sells ready miles in great piles. They even have take away counters in the supermarket. I may be wrong but I doubt that many of these machines will be used efficiently.

jema
Downsizer Moderator

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 28120
Location: escaped from Swindon

Posted: Tue Jan 17, 06 10:56 am Post subject:

Fee wrote:

Bugs wrote:

We always use the economy cycle on ours, and found ecover tablets were not very good compared to just about any other tablet.

tahir

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 45434
Location: Essex

Posted: Tue Jan 17, 06 11:05 am Post subject:
Never had a problem with Ecover tabs

tawny owl

Joined: 29 Apr 2005
Posts: 563
Location: Hampshire

Posted: Wed Jan 25, 06 1:44 pm Post subject:

pricey wrote:

If you use 3 in 1 tablets, don't use rince aid. This clogs the pump as rince aid is in the tablet, I know this from personal experience, I have 88 machines to look after

Shouldn't use separate salt either, unless it's a very hard water area.

Plus, it's less stuff down the drain.

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