The rich should pay more tax

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The rich should pay more tax
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Treacodactyl
Downsizer Moderator

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 25795
Location: Jumping on the bandwagon of opportunism

Posted: Sat Aug 27, 11 6:14 am Post subject:

bagpuss wrote:

Treacodactyl wrote:

bagpuss wrote:

Which problems do you think we are discussing I thought we were discussing whether the rich should pay more tax or not

Many of the other things that were raised in the thread; mainly countering the assertion the current system is fair.

The differential in living costs between different parts of the country isn't a good example of why our tax system isn't fair

In your opinion, but it's one thing that I think shows your assertion that people have more money left after tax the more they earn isn't necessarily a sign of a fair system.

Shane

Joined: 31 Oct 2005
Posts: 3467
Location: Doha. Is hot.

Posted: Sun Aug 28, 11 4:22 am Post subject:

Hairyloon wrote:

Treacodactyl wrote:

Edit to add, for example, someone just over the 40% threshold living and working in the South East is likely to have far less spare cash than someone just under the 40% threshold living in many other parts of the country.

Again, that is their choice.

Sorry to backtrack a bit, but...

You're right, in theory. People do have the choice as to where they work geographically. However, when people do the job they are best at, it benefits society as a whole. The kind of work I do can only be done in London or Aberdeen in the UK, both of which are hideously expensive to live in or near. The only way to fix this according to your vision would be for the UK to be completely decentralised such that there were no expensive population / employment centres, which wouldn't work (IMO), or for the country to stop doing the kind of work that needs people to get together in numbers to be productive (in other words, ship certain industries in their entirety overseas and import the same services from elsewhere).

Hairyloon

Joined: 20 Nov 2008
Posts: 15425
Location: Today I are mostly being in Yorkshire.

Posted: Mon Aug 29, 11 8:22 pm Post subject:

Shane wrote:

The kind of work I do can only be done in London or Aberdeen in the UK, both of which are hideously expensive to live in or near. The only way to fix this according to your vision...

For one, I do not recall putting forward a vision, and for two, if what you are saying is true, then you fix it by setting your prices such that they cover the higher costs of living.

Shane

Joined: 31 Oct 2005
Posts: 3467
Location: Doha. Is hot.

Posted: Tue Aug 30, 11 4:01 am Post subject:
If you do that, people will choose overseas competitors instead. You didn't state it as vision, but you said I, and people like me, can either choose to do the jobs we are good at or live somewhere cheaper. If everybody did the latter a) a lot of industries would be lost to the UK and b) you'd have a lot of people in the "wrong" jobs, which isn't the best, economically speaking.

Hairyloon

Joined: 20 Nov 2008
Posts: 15425
Location: Today I are mostly being in Yorkshire.

Posted: Tue Aug 30, 11 8:44 am Post subject:

Shane wrote:

you said I, and people like me, can either choose to do the jobs we are good at or live somewhere cheaper.

I don't think I did.
Even so, it must be a pretty rare job that:
a) can only be done in London or Edinburgh,
b) cannot compete effectively with folk overseas,
c) provides a benefit to society and
d) pays enough to be on the highest tax band, but not enough to live on.

Shane

Joined: 31 Oct 2005
Posts: 3467
Location: Doha. Is hot.

Posted: Tue Aug 30, 11 9:07 am Post subject:
I'm not going to play quote tennis, but yes, it is a rare job. Fortunately, the very companies overseas that are undercutting their UK equivalents need a few Western expats to keep the legions of low-paid, moderately-skilled Eastern expats pointing in the right direction

oldish chris

Joined: 14 Jun 2006
Posts: 4148
Location: Comfortably Wet Southport

Posted: Tue Aug 30, 11 9:26 am Post subject:

Looks like the stinking rich Germans are getting worried (possibly by threads such as this

) and are realising that they really ought to cough up a bit more tax: https://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/aug/29/tax-us-more-say-wealthy-europeans

Soon it will only be the UK's parasites that are hanging on to all of their baubles. However, when they threaten to leave, taking all their bling with them, where will they go? Looking like only Communist (sic) China.

Treacodactyl
Downsizer Moderator

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 25795
Location: Jumping on the bandwagon of opportunism

Posted: Tue Aug 30, 11 10:13 am Post subject:

Is it little more than political posturing to keep the gullible happy?

I don't have a problem with allowing anyone to make voluntary tax payments if they wish. I would like to see a non-political study to see what the real effect of a tax rise would be. Would, as the Guardian article says, "in the long term, higher taxes on the rich can hit the less well-off most because less wealth is being generated and put into the economy."

bagpuss

Joined: 09 Dec 2004
Posts: 10507
Location: cambridge

Posted: Tue Aug 30, 11 10:16 am Post subject:

what we are talking about here is where the laffer curve sits for various UK sectors

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laffer_curve

If Shane, TD and others are right then the Laffer curve for the UK means our current tax system drives high earners else where and as such it should be at least left alone if not actually reduced

I would love to see to real numbers about it, I hope that when HMRC do an assessment of the 50% tax level the results are public and transparent so we can see if as the Conservatives claim it doesn't actually make as much money as a lower tax burden might

Mithril

Joined: 22 Jul 2011
Posts: 1755
Location: wessex

Posted: Tue Aug 30, 11 10:34 am Post subject:
I think it depends on how you define rich. IMHO the system as it stands is very unfair on those just in the upper band. Plus, all this talk of 'land tax' is very worrying. Presumably the assumption being if you have land you are rich!

bagpuss

Joined: 09 Dec 2004
Posts: 10507
Location: cambridge

Posted: Tue Aug 30, 11 10:42 am Post subject:

Mithril wrote:

I think it depends on how you define rich. IMHO the system as it stands is very unfair on those just in the upper band.

Plus, all this talk of 'land tax' is very worrying. Presumably the assumption being if you have land you are rich!

How is the current system unfair on the upper band?

Mithril

Joined: 22 Jul 2011
Posts: 1755
Location: wessex

Posted: Tue Aug 30, 11 10:50 am Post subject:

bagpuss wrote:

Mithril wrote:

How is the current system unfair on the upper band?

I think the 40% band starts too low.

(Plus, they haven't really thought through tax credits either. A house hold with one parter working for £40K loses all tax credit. Yet another household where both parters work (so in theory £39K each) still get tax credit. Crazy! It ought to be on househld. Slightly off topic though, but it does annoy me.

)

Shan

Joined: 13 Jan 2009
Posts: 9075
Location: South Wales

Posted: Wed Sep 07, 11 9:52 am Post subject:

Green Man wrote:

I still think it should only be business owners and those self employed who pay tax. Would save Multi £bs in admin.
My next step to world domination would be only those that pay tax can vote. (This may be too far?)

Hmmm, so they take all the risk and pay all the tax... gosh, what an incentive.

Hairyloon

Joined: 20 Nov 2008
Posts: 15425
Location: Today I are mostly being in Yorkshire.

Posted: Wed Sep 07, 11 10:30 am Post subject:
Clear proof that some folk have too much money.

Shan

Joined: 13 Jan 2009
Posts: 9075
Location: South Wales

Posted: Wed Sep 07, 11 10:32 am Post subject:
.... and now we tell people how to spend their money too..

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