Acidic compost

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Jam Lady

Joined: 28 Dec 2006
Posts: 2507
Location: New Jersey, USA

Posted: Mon Oct 19, 15 10:56 pm Post subject:

Pine needles break down to duff. Certainly not smelly anaerobic decay. But my understanding is that the end product of composting is somewhat neutral rather than noticeably alkaline or acid.

Blend stuff up, not lasagna layers. A blend of greens and browns breaks down best - wood chips from leafy branches will heat up too hot to put your hand on. Greens - nitrogen sources such as urine, blood, leather tankage, green weeds. Browns - carbon sources such as cardboard, newspaper, woody materials. Softer material - as expected - decays more rapidly than harder things.

Smaller pieces decay more rapidly than large ones (wood chips vs branches or logs.) Those teensy microorganisms don't have large mouths able to take a bite out of "chunky" stuff.

Hairyloon

Joined: 20 Nov 2008
Posts: 15425
Location: Today I are mostly being in Yorkshire.

Posted: Mon Oct 19, 15 11:27 pm Post subject:

Jam Lady wrote:

Smaller pieces decay more rapidly than large ones (wood chips vs branches or logs.) Those teensy microorganisms don't have large mouths able to take a bite out of "chunky" stuff.

I think it more down to the surface area:volume ratio, and/or depth of penetration.

Falstaff

Joined: 27 May 2009
Posts: 1014

Posted: Tue Oct 20, 15 12:49 am Post subject:

tahir wrote:

vegplot wrote:

Are you sure it was lime they were talking about? I heard the word lye.

I think you're right, woodash contains potash

No it was LIME the context was in relation to brasssicas - use woodash and improve the yield of cabbages, brussels and cauli's - How does that relate to LYE ?

The potash content was said to be small - but ok if you had some fruit trees needing encouragement - GOOSEBERRIES were Said to be especially encouraged by ash !

GrahamH

Joined: 23 May 2015
Posts: 523

Posted: Tue Oct 20, 15 1:14 am Post subject:

When it comes to compost I refer to Steve Solomon.
Most famous for 'Growing When It Counts, Growing Food In Hard Times' he also wrote....'Organic Gardener's Composting'....available for free here, no need to download just read......

https://soilandhealth.org/wp-content/uploads/0302hsted/030202/03010200.html

There is a section (chapter two, Nutrients in the Compost Pile) where he quotes Justus von Liebig....

Although Liebig's name is not popular with organic gardeners and farmers because misconceptions of his ideas have led to the widespread use of chemical fertilizers, Liebig's theory of limits is still good science.

Liebig suggested imagining a barrel being filled with water as a metaphor for plant growth: the amount of water held in the barrel being the amount of growth. Each stave represents one of the factors or requirements plants need in order to grow such as light, water, oxygen, nitrogen, phosphorus, copper, boron, etc. Lowering any one stave of the barrel, no matter which one, lessens the amount of water that can be held and thus growth is reduced to the level of the most limited growth factor.....

The book includes wood-ash and the variances of the different woods.

Steve had a large seed firm in Oregon USA but relocated to Tasmania.
A good read and best of all it's free.....

Mistress Rose

Joined: 21 Jul 2011
Posts: 15598

Posted: Tue Oct 20, 15 6:04 am Post subject:

Lime is calcium oxide turning to calcium hydroxide. It is alkaline but will react with nitrates to make a less soluble compound. Quite a lot of calcium salts are 'sparingly soluble'; that is, they don't dissolve very much in water. Lye is another name for potassium hydroxide, and woodash contains potassium oxide which will turn to hydroxide. Virtually all salts of potassium are quite soluble.

Brassicas like maritime conditions. They will in fact grow in soil that has been contaminated by sea water, so more potash, or even sodium salts may well make them grow better, but it has nothing to do with the amount of potash as a nutrients.

Graham, I haven't read that link, but sounds interesting. Liebig did a great deal more than just chemical fertilizers. He also for instance made an extract of beef that was very popular at the time.

GrahamH

Joined: 23 May 2015
Posts: 523

Posted: Tue Oct 20, 15 6:13 am Post subject:
Hi MR. I thought with you being a chemist you would know of Liebig. He's going back a few years but very knowledgeable and interesting. The link takes you straight to Steve Solomon's book index page, click to go to the chapter. Can read direct or download. Lots of useful information in his books. He is now living in Tasmania.

Mistress Rose

Joined: 21 Jul 2011
Posts: 15598

Posted: Tue Oct 20, 15 6:18 am Post subject:
Liebig was around during the Victorian period. While I don't use chemical fertilisers, it was a stage we had to go through, and some farmers still use it. Before that apparently the UK was importing thousands of tons of guano completely digging out some islands for it.

GrahamH

Joined: 23 May 2015
Posts: 523

Posted: Tue Oct 20, 15 6:28 am Post subject:
His is a very interesting life, his company trademarked Oxo, a branch operated from Fray Bentos. His work on cooking food to retain the 'goodness' resulted in Eliza Acton changing her cook book for the third edition. Lots of work on plant nutrients and soil composition.....I have his biography. Good reading.

Tavascarow

Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Posts: 8407
Location: South Cornwall

Posted: Tue Oct 20, 15 6:35 am Post subject:

Mistress Rose wrote:

Garden lime is calcium carbonate, calcium oxide is builders lime & calcium hydroxide is slaked lime.

Falstaff wrote:

tahir wrote:

vegplot wrote:

Are you sure it was lime they were talking about? I heard the word lye.

I think you're right, woodash contains potash

There is little calcium in wood ash unless the combustibles where high calcium in the first place.
Wood ash is very rich in potassium oxide which as MR says will turn to lye when mixed with water (potassium hydroxide).
It also is a strong alkali so will neutralise an acidic compost heap & raise the pH for brassicas.

Treacodactyl
Downsizer Moderator

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 25795
Location: Jumping on the bandwagon of opportunism

Posted: Tue Oct 20, 15 7:39 am Post subject:

Tavascarow wrote:

There is little calcium in wood ash unless the combustibles where high calcium in the first place.

Wood ash is generally regarded as having high amounts of calcium, calcium carbonate and/or calcium oxide and is often referred to as having a liming effect. (See RHS or Wiki).

Its composition does seem to vary a great deal.

Having re-read the bit about mixing manure (chicken droppings) and wood ash it says potassium carbonates can react with the uric acid and form more stable potassium nitrates.

Tavascarow

Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Posts: 8407
Location: South Cornwall

Posted: Tue Oct 20, 15 8:52 am Post subject:

Treacodactyl wrote:

Tavascarow wrote:

There is little calcium in wood ash unless the combustibles where high calcium in the first place.

Wood ash is generally regarded as having high amounts of calcium, calcium carbonate and/or calcium oxide and is often referred to as having a liming effect. (See RHS or Wiki).

'Having a liming effect' can be achieved by any alkali.
Sodium hydroxide will have a liming effect but I wouldn't recommend using it in the garden.
Great for unblocking drains though.
Yes wood ash contains calcium, different woods will contain varying amounts, but the more soluble sodium & potassium salts have a stronger neutralising (liming) effect until they leach away.

dpack

Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 45514
Location: yes

Posted: Tue Oct 20, 15 9:54 am Post subject:

Treacodactyl wrote:

Tavascarow wrote:

There is little calcium in wood ash unless the combustibles where high calcium in the first place.

that last reaction chain is the one the saltpeter men were looking for and the one i use in my compost bags/mixture tubs are a similar chain but done in a liquid rather than liquid on particles but tubs are only ok if well away from people as they really stink at most stages.

vegplot

Joined: 19 Apr 2007
Posts: 21301
Location: Bethesda, Gwynedd

Posted: Tue Oct 20, 15 10:00 am Post subject:

Falstaff wrote:

Wood ash contains around 3% potassium (a plant nutrient). Leaching woodash produces lye - an alkali.

dpack

Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 45514
Location: yes

Posted: Tue Oct 20, 15 10:42 am Post subject:
iirc pig stye muck is a very good p source as pigs pass p through better than most critters. although the petermen used to favour the earth under the ladies' pews in church as well as the contents of the pig stye and mix both(+ wood ash and black earth as a culture starter) for a good "ferment" before doing the extraction.

wellington womble

Joined: 08 Nov 2004
Posts: 15051
Location: East Midlands

Posted: Tue Oct 20, 15 12:25 pm Post subject:
I thought it might be mor complicated!

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