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Coal free Britain
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Mistress Rose



Joined: 21 Jul 2011
Posts: 8496

PostPosted: Fri May 20, 16 6:07 am    Post subject:  Reply with quote    

I don't think the EU alone are doing this. Do you really think if we left that the British government would do any better? I rather think they would relax all the rules rather than try to enforce restrictions on imports from countries that have lower level rules than us. Most of them wouldn't know the environment if it came up and hit them in the face, and some of them would like to get out of the European Court of Human Rights.

I can't seem to get links at the moment, so will have to look at that later.

Rob R



Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 31902
Location: York
PostPosted: Fri May 20, 16 7:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote    

Much of the in campaign is about trade getting harder and more expensive, unless they're lying, in which case that doesn't bode well. The current government is also electing to stay in and I would hope that any future governments we vote in would be capable of running our own country. The National Trust is having to give away a farm to get someone to farm it right - not all EU regs are bad but neither would they all be repealed but at least we would have the ability to tailor them to be practical so that it might become easier to manage .

Tavascarow



Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Posts: 8399
Location: South Cornwall
PostPosted: Fri May 20, 16 8:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote    

Rob R wrote:
Much of the in campaign is about trade getting harder and more expensive, unless they're lying, in which case that doesn't bode well. The current government is also electing to stay in and I would hope that any future governments we vote in would be capable of running our own country. The National Trust is having to give away a farm to get someone to farm it right - not all EU regs are bad but neither would they all be repealed but at least we would have the ability to tailor them to be practical so that it might become easier to manage .
The NT giving their farm rent free has nothing to do with trade & everything to do with how environmentally sensitive the site is.
They don't want any conventional sheep farmer but one who's in tune with the environment & understands the extra work involved in farming such a rare & easily damaged site.
You know this as well as you are in a similar situation.
I've yet to hear anything from the Brexit campaign that convinces me the environment will be safer if we leave.
Quite the contrary.

Rob R



Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 31902
Location: York
PostPosted: Fri May 20, 16 1:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

Tavascarow wrote:
Rob R wrote:
Much of the in campaign is about trade getting harder and more expensive, unless they're lying, in which case that doesn't bode well. The current government is also electing to stay in and I would hope that any future governments we vote in would be capable of running our own country. The National Trust is having to give away a farm to get someone to farm it right - not all EU regs are bad but neither would they all be repealed but at least we would have the ability to tailor them to be practical so that it might become easier to manage .
The NT giving their farm rent free has nothing to do with trade & everything to do with how environmentally sensitive the site is.
They don't want any conventional sheep farmer but one who's in tune with the environment & understands the extra work involved in farming such a rare & easily damaged site.
You know this as well as you are in a similar situation.
I've yet to hear anything from the Brexit campaign that convinces me the environment will be safer if we leave.
Quite the contrary.


Those requirements are in no way connected to need to give it away. Such sites developed out of trade, much more local back then, of course.

Tavascarow



Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Posts: 8399
Location: South Cornwall
PostPosted: Sat May 21, 16 12:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote    

Rob R wrote:
Tavascarow wrote:
Rob R wrote:
Much of the in campaign is about trade getting harder and more expensive, unless they're lying, in which case that doesn't bode well. The current government is also electing to stay in and I would hope that any future governments we vote in would be capable of running our own country. The National Trust is having to give away a farm to get someone to farm it right - not all EU regs are bad but neither would they all be repealed but at least we would have the ability to tailor them to be practical so that it might become easier to manage .
The NT giving their farm rent free has nothing to do with trade & everything to do with how environmentally sensitive the site is.
They don't want any conventional sheep farmer but one who's in tune with the environment & understands the extra work involved in farming such a rare & easily damaged site.
You know this as well as you are in a similar situation.
I've yet to hear anything from the Brexit campaign that convinces me the environment will be safer if we leave.
Quite the contrary.


Those requirements are in no way connected to need to give it away. Such sites developed out of trade, much more local back then, of course.
They want it farmed in a certain way, probably organic. Offering it at virtually zero rent has ensured it's been publicised far & wide. I've seen links to it all over facebook & other social media.
They will get thousands of applicants & will have the pick of the bunch.
Also lots of good PR.
They haven't given it away the terms are for a set period & no doubt if the successful applicants make a go of it the rent will rise.
Local councils used to own many farms & let them on a reduced rent to enable young farmers to get their toe in the door.
Obviously not this extreme, but as I said it's a very vulnerable easily damaged habitat that requires someone special.
Letting it at virtually zero rent will ensure they get that/those person/people they need.

Rob R



Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 31902
Location: York
PostPosted: Sat May 21, 16 8:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote    

Not every Welsh hill farm has to be let for so little, and there are of course elements of all the points you've listed, but there are also many points that you have omitted about the effect of the market.

Tavascarow



Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Posts: 8399
Location: South Cornwall
PostPosted: Sat May 21, 16 8:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote    

Rob R wrote:
Not every Welsh hill farm has to be let for so little, and there are of course elements of all the points you've listed, but there are also many points that you have omitted about the effect of the market.
I'm not saying they should be.
This case is unique & has no relation to EU trade or "a coal free Britain."
If you think I've omitted something please share.

Mistress Rose



Joined: 21 Jul 2011
Posts: 8496

PostPosted: Sat May 21, 16 8:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote    

I don't think staying in or exiting the EU will have much effect on the market. If we leave, then either we will have to very quickly forge new trade links, or we will have virtually no market. We will be competing with countries like China that don't have the same environmental or animal care rules that we do. They could very easily flood this country with cheap food, and unless people look more closely than thay have in the past, bankrupt most British famers.

Yes, the EU agricultural policy is a one size fits nothing, but at least it does contain some safeguards for both animals and the environment. Sadly, most of the Brexiteers, as I said before, wouldn't know the envirnonment if it came up and slapped them in the face.

As for the NT farm, it is sad that they can't employ someone to farm it the correct way rather than hoping someone can make a go of it, all be it that they have the advantage, at least initially of virtually no rent.

Ty Gwyn



Joined: 22 Sep 2010
Posts: 3953
Location: Lampeter
PostPosted: Sat May 21, 16 9:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote    

We are already competing with China swamping the market with cheap produce,look what`s happened to the steel industry in part,

Regarding safeguards of animals by being in the EU,look how some treat their`s in Europe,pig`s still in crate`s and tethered,bird`s still in old type battery cages,

If that is a level playing field,sooner were out the better,and I live with the environment.

Mistress Rose



Joined: 21 Jul 2011
Posts: 8496

PostPosted: Sat May 21, 16 9:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote    

The fact some EU countries don't apply the rules as strictly as the UK is not the fault of the EU. The main problem we have in that case is that people 'want' high welfare standards, but aren't willing to pay for them. The fact the welfare standards are there, and supposed to be applied across the EU if the relavant point.

Yes, we are suffering from dumping by China, but it was our govenment that apparantly prevented the EU from applying tarrifs.

dpack



Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 32650
Location: yes
PostPosted: Sat May 21, 16 12:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

fossil and nuke freeportugal

way to go,the uk might have a higher population density and less sun but we do have more rain,wind, gravity and coastline.

Rob R



Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 31902
Location: York
PostPosted: Sat May 21, 16 12:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

Mistress Rose wrote:
The fact some EU countries don't apply the rules as strictly as the UK is not the fault of the EU.


No, but the fact that we can't refuse the stuff coming into (or going out of) our country certainly is.

Tavascarow



Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Posts: 8399
Location: South Cornwall
PostPosted: Sat May 21, 16 12:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

Rob R wrote:
Mistress Rose wrote:
The fact some EU countries don't apply the rules as strictly as the UK is not the fault of the EU.


No, but the fact that we can't refuse the stuff coming into (or going out of) our country certainly is.
But we can.
All food sold is labelled with country of origin.
If people don't care that's not the fault of the EU.
If consumers stop buying it they will stop sending it.
It's called freedom of choice.

& the UK isn't Mr Squeaky clean when it comes to applying some EU rules.
Human rights & the environment the main ones.

Rob R



Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 31902
Location: York
PostPosted: Sat May 21, 16 2:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

Tavascarow wrote:
Rob R wrote:
Mistress Rose wrote:
The fact some EU countries don't apply the rules as strictly as the UK is not the fault of the EU.


No, but the fact that we can't refuse the stuff coming into (or going out of) our country certainly is.
But we can.
All food sold is labelled with country of origin.
If people don't care that's not the fault of the EU.
If consumers stop buying it they will stop sending it.
It's called freedom of choice.

& the UK isn't Mr Squeaky clean when it comes to applying some EU rules.
Human rights & the environment the main ones.


Usually I'd be right behind you on that one (consumer choice) but the issues we're seeing at the moment in the dairy trade (and other agricultural commodities) isn't the physical movement of produce causing the price to go down. To a degree it is caused by too much production in the UK but mostly the price is dictated by the fact that there is a much bigger over supply in Europe. UK dairy farmers could cut back to attempt to raise the price but the supply would be filled by countries such as Ireland and Poland who are both increasing.

The UK isn't perfect, of course not, but if we're talking about general trends, we do tend to be early adopters of advances. I'm all for many of the protections we have, but the way the EU works can be, as Mistress Rose says, one size fits noone.

Ty Gwyn



Joined: 22 Sep 2010
Posts: 3953
Location: Lampeter
PostPosted: Sat May 21, 16 9:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

Mistress Rose wrote:
The fact some EU countries don't apply the rules as strictly as the UK is not the fault of the EU. The main problem we have in that case is that people 'want' high welfare standards, but aren't willing to pay for them. The fact the welfare standards are there, and supposed to be applied across the EU if the relavant point.

Yes, we are suffering from dumping by China, but it was our govenment that apparantly prevented the EU from applying tarrifs.


The banning of pigs in crates in the UK was 1999,it was not due to start in Europe till 2005,and some countries 10 yrs later had still not applied,

On the steel tariffs I agree,Osbourne and his rail buying spree to China for HS2 could not be faultered by slapping tariffs on Chinese steel,god forbid,but we also get large tonnages of European steel imported into the UK.

EU carbon emissions directives,it seems to be,Do as I say,Not as I do,
Well in Germany`s case anyway.

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