| Archive for Downsizer For an ethical approach to consumption |
| Cho-ku-ri |
...That C.A.P. is getting the chop?Are the public aware that the removal of subsidised foods will mean higher prices in the shops. Non subsidised foods can only go up in price, as apart from the little hike since autumn, food prices have never been cheaper. I suppose the C.A.P. does need some tinkering, because it is twenty years since the grain mountains, and the global population has risen by 50% since then. (100% in the last forty)
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| Northern_Lad |
Does it matter that CAP is getting the chop? Yes.
Is it a good thing that subsidised food is coming to an end? Yes. |
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| Cho-ku-ri |
Does it matter that poorer people will struggle to feed healthy foods to their children?
Should other subsidies go also, like dental care, legal aid, public transport fuel rebates etc? Does it matter that fallow lands, vital to nature will be back under the plough and that farmers won’t need to cross comply to any land management measures as they won’t be getting paid to do so? I’m not arguing one way or another, I just don’t think the public know what they are starting. |
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| Jonnyboy |
I'd be amazed if CAP gets the chop. France will never let it happen. | ||||||
| Cho-ku-ri |
The French have lost so much influence since enlargement. |
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| Northern_Lad |
If it's a matter of personal finance, and there really is no other way, then other benefits are available.
Dental care is for the public good - keeps them out of hospital. Legal aid is vital as it allows balance in court. Public Transport - this is subsidised?  Again, if it is, then that's for the overall good as it keeps the roads free(er) and the economy ticking over.
Yes, but set-asides arn't necesseraly part of CAP. What's wrong with people paying what things cost, not a price determined to keep people happy? |
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| Cho-ku-ri |
You have argued for non essentials to be subsidised yet basic needs like food, you want people to pay the full market value, why the difference?
The reason why I mentioned it is that the outcry, because of food prices since autumn have been quite vocal from the general public, so I can't undersand why they want to pay even more? |
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| Northern_Lad |
Honesty. It's rediculous that the government pay the farmers to grow things, who then sell it at a cheep price to consumers, who are then taxed more by the government so they can pay the farmers.... I pay NI to provide health care; my teeth are useful in respect of my health. Legal aid allows those with neither the finances or wit to defend themselves on an (almost) equal basis - the very core principal of law in this land. Public transport subsidies are the weakest one for support, but it allows those who are not physically able to get around, saving us all millions in support cost for them. (I'm guessing you mean free travel for OAPs there) |
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| Northern_Lad |
Are you refering to a specific article? I've not heard anything about this; certainly not saying it's not going on, though. I think if you took a poll in here then the majority would be in favour of CAPs removal. |
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| orangepippin |
In very simplistic terms, if CAP is getting the chop, then taxpayers should get a large refund. This will help offset the higher food prices. Personally I think that paying the farmer the "real" price rather than the subsidised price is a good thing ... as long as I can afford to pay it! | ||||||
| vegplot |
Removing CAP may well free up vast quantities of cash which is currently being thrown away by producing crops of which significant amount never make it into the food change because the demand isn't there. The removal of CAP may well see better parity between demand and supply which should be a good thing. | ||||||
| Cho-ku-ri |
I agree that the majority would want CAP removal, because they have moaned about it for years, but most have forgotton why it was introduced in the first place. It was to ensure food security and to reduce the reliance on food importation. Get rid of CAP and Europe's population, and particulary Britain's opens themselves up to a hungry old world.
No, the owners of public transport companies get billions of £s back in fuel rabates. |
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| RichardW |
Did I miss the public anouncment? The current scheme has a time limit but they have not said that it or another scheme will not take its place or have they?
Personaly I think subs are wrong but to get rid of them & still have cheaper food in the shops will take a huge inflation / culture shift with lowering of ALL prices & rise in wages. Or w eshut up shop in teh UK & import it all. Justme |
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| Northern_Lad |
Really? I know they pay tens-of-millions to get licences in the first place. |
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| Rob R |
For years now I have been saying/writing that the best thing for British agriculture would be for it to stand on its own two feet without outside support (surprised everyone in the economics lecture that one, apart from the tutor). Really CKR I am surprised at you taking such a simplistic view.
The sub system has taken control away from farmers for years- they've affected the price of cattle at auction, cropping decisions, set aside, and the sectors that haven't received the support have been squeezed even more by the disparity. The whole system, in a bid for simplicity, has been inflexible & unwieldy. In the short term subsidy is OK to achieve an aim but it just doesn't work well enough as a long term strategy. |
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| Cho-ku-ri |
And if you can't afford to pay it, or the farmer can't afford to grow it at a price you can afford, what happens then? It is a huge gamble to be taking with such a vital resource. You can go for years without dental care, and a life time without legal aid, but you need your daily bread. I guess the public will only appreciate food again when it becomes scarce and expensive. |
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| Northern_Lad |
Yeah, but you get decay which lasts for the rest of your life.
Until you have an accident, and things get out of hand....
Which largly comes from imported grain anyway as we don't have the right conditions for high-glutin wheat. Biscuits; now you're talking. |
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| Cho-ku-ri |
Subsidies have been around for years and years and have worked well. The problems you have highlighted have all arisen since the CAP was reformed and Intervention Stores were closed in the 1980's. Since then, the regulations and red tape for farmers has become unbearable and profitablity has fallen. But scrapping subsidy takes food production back to the 1930's. Is that what the public want? Are they prepared? |
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| Northern_Lad |
The honesty and transparancy of then? Yes. The production levels? No. But do you really think production density will drop because they're not being subsidised? |
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| LynneA |
Looking at the article on the BBC website:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7409739.stm there seem to be more plus points that minuses to the changes proposed. Oh - dental care is health care and that is a universal right, not a priviledge. |
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| Rob R |
You say everything takes us back to the 1930's  the world has moved on but subsidy system was even resrictive in the war years, but there was a need for it then, a need to control & ration.
As for food prices being higher, remind me what the cheapest meats I can buy are again? |
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| Cho-ku-ri |
Good affordable food is primary health care and scrapping CAP may make jepordise that. Is it worth the gamble? |
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| Cho-ku-ri |
Imported Pork and Chicken that dosn't comply to U.K. welfare standards. |
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| orangepippin |
The current system is that I pay a lot of tax, but my food bill is subsidised by the CAP. I can afford to pay the real price of food provided that I get the tax refund due when the CAP is closed. Indeed I would rather do that. If the CAP is closed and my tax bill is *not* reduced then I will have a problem. In effect I will then be paying tax for a service I am no longer receiving. |
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| vegplot |
I doubt very much that if CAP were scrapped we'd see long term food prices rises. CAP a it stands wastes millions every year which should be used towards making agriculture efficient, sustainable and affordable. Hopefully this maybe allowed to happen when CAP is reformed or done away with. |
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| Rob R |
Heavily subsidised? |
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| Andy B |
If farmers are not subsidised to grow certain things wont they all just grow high value cash crops like bio fuels instead of food stuff? | ||||||
| RichardW |
I wonder if those two figures (tax not paid & rise in food costs) will be anything like similar? justme |
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| vegplot |
That's a possibility but farmers are growing cash crops today which aren't a direct need of the food chain. You're entering the realms of food vs fuel, perhaps another debate. |
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| Andy B |
I just wondered if CAP dictated what was grown. |
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| Rob R |
Not any more, it used to. Bioethanol is also made from wheat though. |
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| Cho-ku-ri |
Sadly, many U.K. farms are currently only viable because of the subsidy payment. This isn't a payment for nothing, it is a payment to comply and follow strict rules etc. Scrapping the subsidy would either mean food prices going up or farmers intensifing. This is the exact opposite message the public have been telling farmers they want. There is no doubt food prices in Britain will increase if subsidies are scrapped. To expect a windfall in your tax to compensate is very unlikely. I wonder how much we pay in the pound tax to subsidise food? I bet it is less than a penny. The sums don't add up. | ||||||
| Rob R |
An unfortunate side effect of subsidy, that's true. Subsidy has driven intensity, problems with overgrazing were caused by subsidy, disparity between the sectors drove some parts to intensify whilst others were held back by it. |
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| Cho-ku-ri |
How would scrapping CAP, result in lower stocking levels? Farmers are going to have to work every sq.inch of farmland to the max to pay the rising costs. |
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| vegplot |
It would be interesting to see what the state of farming was and in which direction it was going before the Common Market. My observation on this was my father got out of farming not long after the UK joined the CM, as the farm was not big enough to claim the subsidies at the time. Whereas before hand they had a diverse portfolio of products which sold locally and could make a reasonable living. I wonder if this was the general case for small farms. |
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| Northern_Lad |
I don't think they should listen to the public on everything. I'd quite like farmers to to produce their animals for free, cook it the way I like and then do wth washing up for me. I'd like fags to be priced at £4,000,000 and 3 human kidneys each. I want a car that will do 500 miles powered by the toe-nail clippings from one foot. Just because The Public want something doesn't mean they should get it. |
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| Rob R |
Quite. I'd quite like the public to subsidise me doing nothing, it would certainly be easier than going to the bother of producing something that will actually sell.
I'm not quite sure where this question has come from. Farming is not a simplitic equation of more stocking = higher margins, but when subsidisation becomes the basis for your bottom line this is exactly what farmers do, wether you need it or not. |
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| Rob R |
Yes. I set up in farming working against CAP, many did not bother (barriers to change is the economic terminlogy), it didn't make things easy & there was a certain degree of you're either in or you're out. Farming the system becomes an interesting career to follow but it is completely unnecessary & quite inefficient, in terms of tangible (rather than financial) production output. Unfortunately the average food buyer does not have the time for you to explain that disparity to them, they only see one price, the price. |
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| orangepippin |
A quick check on Google - found that in 1999 the UK agriculture minister stated that the CAP costs £250 per year for every man, woman, child in the UK.
That's roughly a £15bn to UK taxpayers at todays values, if I did the sums right (assume roughly 60m people). With that amount of tax coming back into the economy, I guess people could afford to pay the "real" cost of food. The key thing of course is that if the CAP is abolished, we must make sure we get that tax back. |
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| cab |
Agreed. I resent someone else deciding what foods I should pay for through my taxes; can't I choose what to buy for myself? |
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| Cho-ku-ri |
Before subsidy U.K. housholders spent the bulk of their weekly wages on food, today we spend a much smaller percentage. All I am saying is be prepared to start spending the bulk of your monthly pay cheques on food again. That, plus rising heating costs, means goodbye to the holidays abroad and the two cars in the drive for the avarage earner. Remember smallholders, it isn't just the food on your table that is subsidised, chicken, goat, pig, dog, cat, and horse foods are all subsidised too.
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| cab |
Much of that food not really subsidised by us but instead imported from outside of Europe. At the same time we're subsidising food that we export, and other food that we eat ourselves.
As someone who isn't holidaying abroad, who hasn't even got one car on the driveway (or in the garage) and would rather like not to pay as much tax, and who would rather not pay the tax but actually just buy the products ('cos most of what we eat in our house wasn't subsidised by the EU)... I can't tell, whats your point? |
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| Rob R |
You've got a point, certain methods & products will become more expensive (relatively speaking). Grain feeding ruminants is a classic example- but that doesn't mean that farmers will stupidly continue inefficient practises because there isn't the incentive to do so (and there are restrictive legislation which will also need reforming to a degree). Market prices are also driven by supply & demand, not just subsidy, subidisation just skews the market in favour of some things, which aren't necessarily the most sustainable long term ways of producing food. |
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| Cho-ku-ri |
Sorry, I was aiming this at Mr. Avarage. 
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| Rob R |
Mr Av'agarage?
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| RichardW |
If you did nothing but the absolute minimum to comply with the regs would you make more money than you make now? (and much less work) I know I would make a (small) profit & not a loss each year (ok so on target to start making a profit from next year but only minimal). Justme |
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| Rob R |
Good point. Probably a slight reduction, if you don't count the work that has gone into raising the market value of the place, but that was my way in around the subsidy/legislative minefield, but it was set to take into account the CAP reform that was already in the pipeline. | ||||||
| cab |
Mr. Average? On Downsizer? Surely you jest 
But Mr. Average, freed from paying for food he doesn't choose through taxation, can then buy the food he does want instead. Win-win for me, lose-lose for those farmers who benefit from subsidy and who cannot adapt, and for those people who predominantly buy foods produced with EU subsidy. I wouldn't pretend that this will be painless, but I think Rob makes a fine point about it being good. |
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| orangepippin |
I also think this would be a good outcome. | ||||||
| vegplot |
On the whole it should be good and I agree with it. | ||||||
| Cho-ku-ri |
Well be prepared to dig deep into your pockets, that is all I'm saying or our farmers will sell their harvests to the 'New World'. | ||||||
| Rob R |
You are talking as if world markets are directly affected by subsidy. 
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| orangepippin |
Remember, the other part of the equation is that we get the CAP tax back. That means a transfer of about £15bn from subsidy to discretionary spending. When does the CAP actually stop and when do we get the tax refund? | ||||||
| Cho-ku-ri |
....and when do low earners/ low tax payers start paying more for their food? | ||||||
| cab |
You mean, my tax money can fund the CAP or it can fund a fairer tax/benefits system? |
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| gnome |
they dont. you can't spend money you dont have. we will just have to go hungry like in other third world cuntries. |
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| orangepippin |
When they get the CAP tax rebate? Just to put this in perspective, the amount of tax refund we are talking about is probably the equivalent of about a third of the tax which the government currently makes out of petrol taxes in the UK. These are very big numbers. If we don't get the CAP tax back, then we have a potentially nightmare scenario of food being, in effect £Xbn more expensive with no means to cover the additional cost. If the CAP is truely being scrapped, when do we start to see these tax rebates? |
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| Jamanda |
I don't see why there should be tax rebates. Possible tax cuts, but why should there be rebates? | ||||||
| orangepippin |
Yes, not sure about the terminology. The point is that when the CAP goes, the lack of subsidies to farmers will force food prices up. That should be offset by tax cuts to consumers (since the CAP subsidy is no longer being paid) so that the overall effect on is neutral. | ||||||
| tahir |
It'll be a brilliant day when the CAP finally goes, for lots of different reasons. | ||||||
| Rob R |
I know a lot of low earners who could reduce their food bills now with a little knowledge & reorganisation, but they continue to do so out of convenience, preconceptions & ignorance. I, and we on Downsizer, can do our best to change these attitudes, but you can only lead a horse to water. As long as you can't give good food away you can't give yourself a stomach ulcer over starving people. And as I've said previously, supply is influenced by demand, unless it is skewed by subsidy, the remove of which will make some inefficient foods go up in price, while more sustainable foods can regain price stability. |