| Archive for Downsizer For an ethical approach to consumption |
| Green Rosie |
Am I over-reacting?Every Friday my boys bring home a book from the small library in their classroom. This week one of them brought back Blue-Beard but when I started to read and translate it to them I quickly felt that it was not text suitable for a 5 or 6 year old:...... The she (his wife) saw the floor was covered in coagulated blood and that this blood reflected the bodies of several dead women attached along the walls. These were all the women that Blue Beard had married and whose throats he had slit one after the other ..... Would you be happy reading this to your 5 year old? Should I say some thing to the teacher? Am I over-reacting? |
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| Grimnir |
I wouldn't say you were overreacting, I wouldn't want our boy to read that and he's older! | ||||||||||
| Chez |
I'd be uncomfortable with it. But I suppose it's also one of those 'depends on the child' questions. | ||||||||||
| James |
that quite nasty. Not 5 y.o. stuff at all | ||||||||||
| Sherbs |
That's pretty explicit. I guess one test would be to think about what certificate would they put on a film that had that scene in it.
If you're unhappy about it, then I think you should speak to the teacher, I'm sure any teacher would rather have to deal with parents that were obviously interested and cared about what their child was reading, than parents who didn't know or care. |
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| Penny |
I wouldn't read it to a five year old 
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| missysx |
i have a 6 year old and 8 year old and i'm quite shocked by that..
definately worth a word with the teacher. |
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| Green Rosie |
That's what I felt - I was beginning to doubt my translation but it is right and I quickly said to the boys that I didn't feel it was a suitable book for them and we read "Jabob et la Lune" instead which was lovely 
The book is due back tomorow so I think I should make the effort and take the boys into school instead of letting them catch the bus and explain my concerns to their teacher. Maybe the French are less worried about this sort of text than me but I felt very uncomfotable with the book. Right - what is the french for "explicit", "gory" and "concerned"? |
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| Pilsbury |
we took a book out of the libaray a few weeks ago, I think it was a Garth nix book and we had read and enjoyed some of them so tried this one but it had the word Ba****** and F****** twice even though it was in the teens section, we marked the pages and pointed it out when we took it back and was told that it was appropeiate for teens, starting at 13 Years old 
i would be uncomfortable reading your book to my nephews so I would say someting |
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| Silas |
I would not have a problem with either books, sorry. | ||||||||||
| Green Rosie |
But you are not 5 years old? Would you be happy dealing with a frightened 5 year old waking you after nightmares at 3 O'clock in the morning? |
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| Chez |
Which Garth Nix book, Pilsbury? | ||||||||||
| Silas |
There are much more frightening thing for 5 year olds than literature. |
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| Jamanda |
I would mention it to the teacher too. I wouldn't want Ben reading that.
The only book I've stopped reading him was a graphic novel called Young Justice which turned out to have a villainess who had got mixed up with a car and had enormous hooters  I think he finished it with his Dad though.
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| Penny |
Did his dad enjoy it? |
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| Green Rosie |
But isn't my job as a mother to protect them from frightening things for as long as possible? This one is within my control. And you didn't answer my question. |
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| Pilsbury |
Shades children, I dont have a problem with the book, I love the abohorsen series and this one was good as well, I was just worried it was in the teens section http://www.amazon.co.uk/Shades-Children-Garth-Nix/dp/0007174985/ref=sr_1_15?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1227822577&sr=1-15 |
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| Silas |
No, I don't think it is. You may protect them from dangerous things, but many things are frightening,that is life. |
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| Green Rosie |
But when I have the ability to remove the frightening thing then I do believe it is my job to do so. I agree that there are many real and imagined frightening things in the world but I watched my five year old's face change from contented sleepy boy to worried boy and I wasn't happy that a book supplied by a school was the reason for that change. |
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| Jamanda |
It's not only the frightening aspect of this book that I would have an issue with for such a youngster but the misogyny involved as well. I'm not saying no-0ne should read the book, but I wouldn't want to explain why some men enjoy murdering women to a five year old. | ||||||||||
| Chez |
I haven't read that one; I am an Abhorsen fan, too. I think that bad language is different from imagery that might prey on a child's mind, isn't it? When I was in my last year at primary school, we were read 'The Hobbit' and I went on to read 'Lord of the Rings' from the school library. I had terrible nightmares about it - I got to the point where Gandalf fights the Balrog and was waking the whole family up screaming. My mother made me take the book back (and I didn't read it again until I was 20  ). I wouldn't feel comfortable exposing my children to that kind of imagery if they were going to be effected by it like that.
It's not 'ooh, children should be protected from nasty things' that's worrying you, is it, Green Rosie? It's whether it actually frightens them in to coniptions. Which I think is quite reasonable. |
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| Pilsbury |
Shades childeren has some disterbing imagery as well, the whole world abducted and turned into meat and creatures hunting down those who escaped ect ect. |
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| Silas |
Well, as a parent you can only do what you think is right, there is no user manual or degree course in parenting and each child is different. Having said that, life skills and a street wise attitude is pretty handy for most kids, and most of them, even 5 year olds are more clued up than most of us give them credit for. | ||||||||||
| Chez |
I think I am more concerned about imagery than about bad language ... . I am already worrying that Leo's report sheet from nursery is going to come back saying something like "Leo told little Jonny to f*** off this afternoon" .
Pilsbury - I might try that one. The Mister Monday stuff left me cold ... |
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| Pilsbury |
didnt even get through th first book of the set, I just couldnt read them | ||||||||||
| Green Rosie |
I wasn't aware that murder of numerous wives and leaving them hanging from the wall was something happening on a regular basis on the streets of today - but then I do live in rural France. And even with my poor french I'm fairly sure that this is not a subject my boys and their friends regularly discuss at playtime. Life skills and a street-wise attitute - Yes - Multiple wife murder and subsequent glorification by hanging - no. |
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| colour it green |
I would not read it to a 5 year old no. stuff of nightmares
Most fairy tales are pretty gruesome, (it was no kiss that woke sleeping beauty in the original version...) but the original tales were aimed at adults not children. the children's versions are usually made a little more gentle. I am not at all bothered by a child being exposed to swear words in literature.. |
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| dpack |
difficult | ||||||||||
| Green Rosie |
So I see
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| Helen M |
i had a similar experience a couple of years ago when my boy brought home a school library book that i felt was unsuitable for his age (six at the time) it had a story line based around teen sex and drug addiction on the rough streets of ireland. i took it into school and was told that they were compleatly unaware of the books content as a lot of their books had been donated to the school. they were appaled that they had let something of this nature slip through the net and removed it from their library. they were very greatful for my bringing it to their attention. i feel that this may be the case with your lads school green rosie. teachers are busy people and cannot vet every book on the shelves and sometimes things go wrong. honest mistakes.
as for sheltering our children from things like this. i believe this can be an ugly world and we all have to live in it. however every child has the right to a blessed childhood and i feel it is my duty to try to provide this for my babies (and yes i know they are not babies). they will encounter hardship, grief and horror in their lives just as much as the next person and i hope they will grow up to feel that they have the protection and love of their family to secure themselves to. i want them to remember a glittering happy childhood full of good memories and few nightmares and if i can shelter them in their youth i will. i also feel that most mothers will agree. i have just read this back and realised how preachy i sound but it is not meant that way. i have a strong instinct to protect the young and vunerable where i can. however i do also agree that you can't hide the real world from them but there is a difference between hiding and protecting. |
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| kevin.vinke |
I think you are quite right.
We vet all the books the kids read. Our Daughter will read a book a day (10) given the chance and loves the McCaffrey Dragon series but some OH wonīt let her read yet. Kids donīt need blood and gore at that age. |
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| Becki |
I wouldn't want my 10yr old reading that.
When we were in Swindon I had the same situation. I didn't let her finish the book and then went into school and explained why I thought it was inappropriate. She didn't read it and they were quite good but I was treated to a how difficult it will be because everyone else is reading it. It had something to do with testicles if I remember correctly. |
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| Silas |
I know that I am very much in the minority here, but I really think that good literature at any age cannot be a bad thing. Protecting children from stories can do no good in my opinion.
Another poster has touched upon fairy stories, even now that they have been sanitised almost beyond recognition, are pretty horrible. |
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| Green Rosie |
I completely agree with what you say Helen M - but I also understand where you are coming from Silas. However there are enough things in the world to scare children without me intentionally adding to that list - especially just before bedtime.
I took the book in this morning. A Mum totally agreed with me. The teacher also agreed that the text wasn't suitable for infants and that the book should have been in the junior classroom .... so no doubt I'll have to deal with the issue again in a couple of years time. But at least I'll be ready this time. I will not read the book at bed-time and I'll be prepared to discuss the issues it raises. |
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| Jamanda |
Ah, but who decides what is "good" literature? Not convinced that this example qualifies. |
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| Silas |
Good point. It is a very subjective thing, and I'm not saying ten year olds should be reading 'Naked Lunch', but I seriously believe that we can easiliy become too protective. |
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| hamster |
Don't know about 'good literature', but if I remember correctly, Blue Beard is a very famous French fairy-tale (that also might have some connection with Brittany), rather like Hansel and Gretel or something. Still seems very gory for children of that age, though.
Apparently I was terrified by the BFG at a similar age, though I think that was suspense rather than gore. |
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| ksia |
Hi Rosie - came to this late!
We tend to find that France is often a long way behind the UK in terms of sensitivity to issues like sexism, racial stereotyping etc but usually quite 'protective' on violence (if you know what I mean). It seems like this was something of a mistake. Maybe the best way next time is to ask other parents what they think. There is a 'goriness line', but it's different for different kids - and adults - at different ages. I'm sure there are many 12 year-olds who can watch films that would make me sick. So - you are the one who knows best what your kids can handle. You are the expert on them. Yours is the final say-so until they're old enough to choose for themselves. (Which is a whole other question!) Ian. |
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| vegplot |
Not a problem with it to be honest. | ||||||||||
| lettucewoman |
I would be concerned with the misogyny line, but not really anything else...most fairy tales (brothers grimm, hans christian andersen et al) are extremely gory, violent etc etc! I read them all as a child, read them to the kids, and no one was particularly bothered. It's up to the individual to decide what their children can take...
I do agree (  ) with silas...sometimes we can be guilty of overprotecting kids...I worked in TIE years ago, and one of the plays was about conservation and environment, and included a play about the people of japan who were poisoned by mercury in the fish...there was a huge debate in the company about whether we should show anyone actually dying...we were doing it kabuki and no style so it was stylised...I was the only one there with a child at the time and felt that the children deserved to see the whole story.
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| Blacksmith |
Better than Pirate red and pirate blue ?
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| Brownbear |
As far as I recall, the malefactor comes to a suitably sticky end himself. Not sure about suitable ages, but on the rare occasions I see children's cartoons on the television, they seem almost entirely to consist of warfare in outer space, or between superheroes and villains, or between fantastical beasts, none of which ever seem to perish as a result of their battles. At least the Bluebeard story shows violent actions as having violent consequences. |
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| Erikht |
I think you are overreacting. It is a story about how killing children are wrong, and will have consequenses. A little blood, killing and gore never hurt anybody. | ||||||||||
| Helen M |
best sentence ever 
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| Northern_Lad |
I don't think it's the act but the full descriptin that's off-putting for me. Fairy tales are full of death and core, but it's not detailed, you're just told that they're killed, not explicit detail of the act, as is the case with the quote. |
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| colour it green |
i agree. it would be possible to tell this story without such details |
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| Silas |
But why? Kids are a lot tougher and much more sensible that we often give them credit for. |
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| Northern_Lad |
Kids also play things back in their heads and enact it out on themselves. Yes, kids are robust, but it's in things that they can't fully grasp. Give them explicit details and they're more likely to react badly. |
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| vegplot |
Fee-fi-fo-fum
I smell the blood of an Englishman. Be he alive or be he dead I'll grind his bones to make my bread. |
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| Silas |
Oh Grandma, what big teeth you have... | ||||||||||
| Northern_Lad |
..and the wolf gobbled grandma right up. Not, and the wolf, having sharp canine, insisor and carnasial teeth, bit into grandma's neck, causing arterial blood to spirt all over the wolf's face and dripping to the floor. But grandma didn't die that fast, oh no, she held on, gripped by panic, feeling her life ebb away as the wolf took bloody mouthful after mouthful of granny's intestines in his big jaws and chomping them up. The last thing grandmama was aware of war the wolf ripping her arm out of the socket. |
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| vegplot |
There's is a limit to what children should be exposed to. I'm not sure where it is. Parents will need to make their own judgements on this. I suggest they vet school books and if they have any misgivings raise them with the school.
Children can be more robust than parents give them credit for and wrapping on cotton wool isn't, on the whole, a good thing. Just a thought. How many here have shown their children sheep or pigs being disembowled? I know VSS's children have been exposed to this aren't in the least bit 'wobbly', far from it from what I've seen. |
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| lettucewoman |
Point taken.... |
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| Silas |
Depends which version you read - the original was much more gory than your effort. I would have no problem with yours though, even to a five year old. |
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| Azura Skye |
I think that if you read such stuff to a five year old, and if it's written in more and more young books - then kids will be accustomed to it. But that's not a good thing.
The emotional wrench one feels when reading such a paragraph as what NL wrote is not something we should just 'get used to'. We need to feel this emotion to empathise and to know wrong when we see it. I don't see what benefit a five year old would get from reading such gory details. There's a difference between showing a child the innards of an animal and explaining what each part is. (I was facinated by this as a child). But to read the pain one endures, and the cruelty of someone being killed by a villain is completely different. I don't think a five year old can understand and cope with this level of emotional turmoil. Kids are so tough, this is true - but it's no reason to push them to get used to these kinds of things. |
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| vegplot |
You're right to point out the difference between emotional and potentially traumatic aspects and the phyiscal in this instance. Can you have one without the other? I think you can - to a degree. | ||||||||||
| colour it green |
we used to live ona farm and my son grew up seeing birth, sex and death amongst the animals, way before i had time to wonder if i should let him or not. We used to see a lot of pheasants and my (then) 3 year old son was excited to see them. Then the farmer showed up at our door with brace of pheasants as a gift. my son's reaction? at tea he asked for 'more dead bird please' my son has always been aware of where meat comes from, and is fine about it.. in this respect I think it is a mistake to protect children from such things.. it is everyday life (and death) after all a story of man killing lots of women, complete with the full on gory details is not daily life. There is a case for all kids to be aware of various fairy tales and legends, and blue beard is one of these, but the stories are retold and refashioned over and over, so why pick out a version not suitable for a 5 year old.. |
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| vegplot |
That is the question. People have their own opinion about what is suitable and what isn't. I refer back to my previous post and if the parent thinks it's unsuitable they should raise it with their school. You don't think it is suitable and I respect that. Azure was right in making her observation. I have no axe to grind. Well, I have an axe but thieves stole my grinder. |
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| Sherbs |
Absolutely. I grew up reading Russian fairy tales and legends which were exceptionally grim in terms of the acts that took place. However, I think it was the explicit nature of the description that concerned me. It was unneccessary. |
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| colour it green |
you are absolutely right. at the end of the day the parent makes the choice for their kids, and all kids are different. just sometimes it is useful to sound it off other parents |
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| crofter |
I wouldn't read it to a 5 year old. There are plenty of better stories. What is the "moral" of Bluebeard anyway? That people may not really be as they first appear? Obey your husband? Even if you are rich and powerful you will not get away with murder?
Are there any old tales in which evil wins? |
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| vegplot |
I question the a need to have a moral to a story. Stories, to me are adventures, recounting the past, entertainment or reinforcing cultural beliefs.
If the story is used to teach social structures then it should contain a moral to teach right from wrong but it's not essential for all stories. |