| Archive for Downsizer For an ethical approach to consumption |
| Blacksheep |
Another sick sheep question for mihto/othersWe found a ewe down with her head back today, intially thought she was dead until I got close enough to see her breath. Managed to get her to stand up which she did drunkenly with ears drooped.She has 10 week old lambs on her has been healthy up to now although seemed a little quiet maybe during the week. Had a BTV8 vaccine 6 days ago - no other recent treatments or stress. Had Heptavac P booster a month before lambing. We have injected calciject + extra magnesium this morning. Also had penicillan, combivit and anti-inflammatory from the vet. But still very weak and staggering when she is up. She has facial odema - looks like Bluetongue pictures (!) and she also stuck her mouth in some water for a while. However we noticed that one site where she had the calciject - armpit - is continuing to drip fluid, slightly strawlike colour over an hour after the calciject and that she has considerable odema around her throat/chest/sternum and top of her legs. Temperature only very slightly raised. Earlier today droppings fairly normal but now scouring, passing water. She has drooled some fluid from her nose and mouth. She wasn't bloated when I found her so don't think she had been down too long. Her breathing is quite rapid, her eyes look normal. not convulsing The vet is not sure what is wrong, and although thinks it sounds like a bad reaction thinks it is too long after the vaccine to react. Also we did not notice an adverse reaction when she was vaccinated last summer. Any ideas anyone, although I suspect she is too far gone to recover? 
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| mihto |
Re: Another sick sheep question for mihto/others
This one I don't like. If she was my patient I would keep a very close watch on her and have her PM'd when or if she dies. The medication has not had time to take hold yet. This does not sound like hypomagnesemia, however. Bluetongue certainly comes to mind. Whithout knowing your rules this would be one for DEFRA, I think. In Norway we would have taken a blood sample as soon as we could and then sent the whole sheep to the nearest lab. Any other animals sick? What kind of grazing is she on? Any chance of a plant poisening? Keep us informed and post more info when things change one way or another. |
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| Blacksheep |
This one I don't like. If she was my patient I would keep a very close watch on her and have her PM'd when or if she dies. The medication has not had time to take hold yet. This does not sound like hypomagnesemia, however. Bluetongue certainly comes to mind. Whithout knowing your rules this would be one for DEFRA, I think. In Norway we would have taken a blood sample as soon as we could and then sent the whole sheep to the nearest lab.
Any other animals sick? What kind of grazing is she on? Any chance of a plant poisening? Keep us informed and post more info when things change one way or another. _________________ Thank you for the quick reply Mihto. She is in a pasture/hay field with 10 other ewes and twenty lambs. This is old semi-improved pasture, on a sheep hill farm. We are not aware of any poisonous plants (OH is an ecologist so can identify the plants). All the other ewes are well, lambs too, the majority of this group were vaccinated against BTV8 earlier in the week. I am not really expecting her to live very much longer and we will take her body for a PM - are local vets do this but it is generally a look and see rather than sending for any tests (we had 2 shearling losses to pulpy kidney a couple of years ago which had a PM by the local vet - the vaccine company said in order to confirm this the carcases should be taken to the VLA but need to be taken immediately and during office hours so not always possible and we had no further losses - this is different to those cases. If she is still alive in the morning we will ask for bloodtesting (for bluetongue - anything else?), the main vet does some work for DEFRA so will know if it is reportable but is not working today. The duty vet has not suggested a bloodtest. This sheep 'should' be fully protected against BTV8 virus, I would also expect her temperature to be much higher for this, she seems to have developed significant swelling in a very short space of time. We are on the west side of the country and not had cases of Bluetongue reported in this area (as yet). |
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| mihto |
I'm of course very interested in this case. We are tiptoeing here on the West coast: 4 herds of bluetongue seropositive cattle have been discovered in the southern part of the country a few months ago and the vector season has just started.
My textbooks are all in my office and I cannot confirm if all symptoms fit. However, there will always be variations. In this case we would expect any bluetongue symptoms to come from the vaccination. I have no idea if the vaccine contains attenuated or dead virus. Sometimes attenuated virus can be strong enough to survive and precipitate disease. In the Netherlands animals seropositive for serovariant 6 suddenly surfaced, possibly because they had used illegally imported vaccine of the wrong serotype. I'm sure the head vet would be very interested in this case tomorrow. The disease most likely to be confused with bluetongue in Norway is a rather common plant poisoning with Narthecium Ossifragum (Bog asphodel). The white faced sheep react with oedema of the head when exposed to sunlight. This is a mountain plant and probably not found on your pasture. There are other diseases which can be confused with bluetongue as well, but your symtoms seem violent enough to actually kill the sheep. I hope that you keep on posting as the sheep progresses. |
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| VSS |
Sounds like some sort of allergic reaction possibly to a plant she has eaten. Is she showing any photosensitivity? | ||
| kanisha |
The only BTV 8 vaccine available in the UK is dead vaccine it cannot seroconvert. . at only 8 days post vaccination she isn't covered for a BTV8 infection could be an allergic response unless something like a snakebite? | ||
| Blacksheep |
the BTV8 vaccine is not a live vaccine here so shouldn't cause disease as such, although maybe a reaction in a small number of cases? (I havn't imported any illegal vaccines!)
Although we are a hill farm our land is permanent pasture rather than moorland, we do have N. ossifragum in the UK but generally in moorland/heathland boggy areas - definately none on our farm. We have fed hay cut from this field last summer all through the winter without any problem - sometimes poisonous plants are more palatable when dry. Would need to have a checklist of all poisonous grassland plants to make sure there are none, but think it quite unlikely, there is nothing unusual growing and think we would have seen a problem before now or from feeding the hay. re photosensitivity - there is nothing obvious on the skin - what else should I be looking for apart from the swelling? She is not showing any improvement sadly. |
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| Blacksheep |
thanks for the reply Kanisha - she should be covered against Bluetongue by last summers vaccine given at the beginning of August - I understand it should last a year although immunity will get weaker towards the end of the year hence vaccinating fairly early on in the season now.
We havn't seen any adders on our farm but doesn't mean they are not there, some farmers in the area have claimed sheep loses due to snake bites. Do you know the symptoms? |
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| kanisha |
sorry not specifically in sheep but swelling nausea fatigue and according to what i've just read this is the worst time as the snakes are full of venom as they emerge from hibernation. i do know on a vet list just this week they discussed adder bite treatment for a dog so they are about.
http://www.herpetofauna.co.uk/adder.htm |
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| crofter |
Re: Another sick sheep question for mihto/othersCould it be listeriosis? |
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| Blacksheep |
I havn't found any information specific to sheep and adder bites but have found that in dogs is causes their heads to swell and spreads down their throats - with their collars needing to removed, which is interesting - we will keep a lookout for adders, OH doesn't really think that there is enough rough grassland for them, but we do have wide fenced hedges so maybe these provide enough habitat. With it just being a single sheep it does seem it may be a possibility.
thanks crofter re listeriosis - have only seen this in a person - my father, very very nasty. I think the penicillin antibiotic treatment should have been able to help if it was this, although it may have been too late. Her eyes have looked normal and have not seen the circling so not sure that it would have been this - trouble with sheep is there are too many things that can go wrong though and so difficult to know what you are dealing with. All the sheep in her field were checked very carefully this evening and all looking bright and well |
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| crofter |
Just done a bit of reading about listeriosis - no swelling, just paralysis of one side. | ||
| mihto |
How is the ewe today? Snakebite is a definite possibility. Listeriosis it is not. I have seen and treated too many of those over the years.
The oedema is the clue here. An adder bite could give her these symptoms. I have never seen a sheep with snake bite, though. Dogs and cattle yes. The confusing bit is the symptoms coming so close to bluetongue vaccination. Keep us posted! |
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| Blacksheep |
Thank you for checking back Mihto. Unfortunately the ewe showed no response to the treatment and died late last night. I am at work today and my OH has been trying to organise the PM with our vets - they of course all seem to be out on calls this morning, so I am waiting for an update. I have asked him to query whether it could have been an adder bite - from what I could find regarding the symptoms it does sound a definate possiblity. Can this be conclusive on a pm?- it will obviously now be quite a long since the ewe died for any testing and very hot here (perfect adder weather). I will certainly be keeping a lookout for adders if we get an inconclusive result back I will set some tin out to attract them if they are around.
I had some suspected allergy problems last year and one consultant I saw said that normally when there is a bad reaction there is a combination of factors at work - so in this case if the ewe had then had a minor reaction to the vaccine and then got a bite shortly after the vaccine this might have induced a more severe reaction to the snake bite (or anything else that might have triggered some kind of reaction) maybe? Thanks for your advice on this all, I will let you know the outcome of the PM for the ewe later on. |
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| Blacksheep |
PM carried out by local vet and they think malignant oedema due to severe gangarene found in the chest/throat area - this would have needed a wound to let an infection in and could possibly have been a snake bite - something certainly triggered this very rapid infection to take hold as she was fine a few days before when vaccinated (we use a clean needle for each sheep)- checked twice daily, and up and grazing until Sunday morning, and I guess venom would trigger rapid tissue breakdown. We have certainly had the hot weather for them to have come out of hibernation. All her body organs were healthy at the PM. I hope not too see this again - will now be checking for adders, we do have a lot of voles in those fields so plenty of food source for the adders - but not much you can do if they are around. | ||
| mihto |
Interesting and a bit unexpected. Did you feel any crepitation (air bubbles under the skin)? One would have expected fever as well. ...
Were "meat-eating" bactria mentioned? Any injection can, with a lot of bad luck, start malignant oedema. Typical deep wound infection with soil bacteria and so rare that I have never seen it clinically. Snake bite may still have been the reason. A real big case of extremely bad luck
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| Blacksheep |
thanks for your reply Mihto - certainly not 100% conclusive PM re cause - just severe gangrenous tissue found. The swelling was the pitted type on the top of her legs and a looser swelling in her chest area, tighter around her head but didn't feel the air bubbles/crepidation. Also the skin was punctured for the calciject would air have been noticeable escaping then - plenty of fluid drained out. The injection was subcutanous with a fresh needle used - Also she should have had vaccination cover against the main clostridial bacteria with her booster being given in January.
'meat-eating' bacteria not mentioned? Just bighead or malignant oedema as possible causes of the gangrene - externally her skin did not look unhealthy. The lack of fever - maybe she had a fever during the night, not sure. When we took her temperature during the day it was 39.8 both times |
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| mihto |
We are really getting into details here... Malignant oedema (Cl. septicum) is probably not covered by the common vaccine. The air bubbles are not always present, but the muscle can turn rather dark. Once the symptoms are there, treatment is often futile. Huge doses of penicillin may sort it out. If air bubbles are present youwill not see them escaping: they are inside the muscle. The clostidium infections are very often confusing and a lab is necessary. Some bacteria are prevalent on certain pastures and you may need to keep your eyes open. Most cases are only single events, however. Now I wish you a really peaceful, healthy, uneventful and wonderfully boring season. Seems you just about had enough! |
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| Blacksheep |
Have checked and the vaccine should have offered protection against C.septicum - the link gives details of the vaccine http://www.noahcompendium.co.uk/Intervet_Schering-Plough/Heptavac_P_PLUS/-28964.html . Can't be reported as a failture without the PM /tests being carried out by the VLA - I wish this was easier to organise.
my OH saw the PM carried out and says yes the affected muscle was dark - brown and there was lots of greyish fluid in her - he did not notice air bubbles - but would not necessarily have known what to look for - would think the vet would have pointed it out though. Definately hope not to see another case (our vet thinks it is a one off case too, and very unlucky) - if we do get another case hope the timing enables us to get proper testing done by the VLA. thank you for helping me to try and understand this Mihto - a very quiet boring rest of the year with the sheep would be wonderful! |