cab
|
BBC Breakfast News Story about RecyclingGuy on the BBC this morning extolling the virtues of recycling, going through a recyclng box to say what might happen to the materials there in. He talked about how a plastic bottle might end up keeping us warm as part of a fleece, fair enough I thought, but why not use it as a bottle? Then he pulled out a tin can and talked about it becoming another tin can or part of a bit of machinery. Okay, thinks I, can't do much else with it. Then out comes a wine bottle, and he said that it could become another wine bottle and that recycling it was therefore obviously worthwhile... Or, better yet, it could become the sand in a golf course bunker!
For pities sake...
Ther R's, reduce, reuse and recycle, in that order. We could, of course, take sand, melt it down, make a bottle, then grind up the bottle for sand. Or we could take a bottle, melt it down and make another bottle.
Or, we could seriously address the energy issue here and take the bottle, and use it again as a bottle!
Shop shelves are full of hundreds of designs of bottle, they're all SLIGHTLY different. Why not have, say, a dozen designs? Standardise them across Europe, and re-use them? How hard can that be? Why do we persist with the crazy practice of melting something down to make it again before we wake up?
Same goes for plastics, packing material and suchlike. Why are we composting cardboard boxes rather than reusing them? Why are we manufacturing millions of plastic bottles and then recycling them rathter than using simple, re-useable containers?
|
Jonnyboy
|
Commercial realities, isn't a 500ml plastic coke bottle design patented?
But don't stop there, why not have standardised car engines and common parts such as brakes, suspension etc, based on the most efficient design as another example, you reduce the manufacture and stockholding of spares, reduce carbon emmissions increase average fuel efficiency
|
wellington womble
|
because that would be far too easy for people to keep the cars they've got and not buy new ones! I agree, but it will only come through legislation, as capitalism is thriving in this country!
Which reminds me - There's no waste like home is on on thursday - not sure if its the first, 8.30 BBC2.
|
Behemoth
|
| Jonnyboy wrote: | Commercial realities, isn't a 500ml plastic coke bottle design patented?
But don't stop there, why not have standardised car engines and common parts such as brakes, suspension etc, based on the most efficient design as another example, you reduce the manufacture and stockholding of spares, reduce carbon emmissions increase average fuel efficiency |
Ahh but this would stifle innovation they would argue..
..as for glass bottles it would seem sensible. I think with plastic bottles reuse is problematic as they get squashed in transit and become damaged/unhygenic, hence the shredding and making fleece and insulation.
|
bagpuss
|
I am now struggling to remember whether it was you or my mums OH who suggested that wine makers should just use like 6 different bottle designs and we should just return them for cleaning
Certainly most glassware could have this sort of model applied to them
As far as plastic containers go it might be a little more difficult but I don't think they would really need to make them that much more sturdy to make them more resusable then you just need big vasts of drinks, margerine and other such things and then it would be far easy but I suspect the manufacturers would have none of it
|
judith
|
A small part of the problem is that manufacturers are not responsible for their packaging as they are in Germany. In the unlikely event that I would have a 500 ml Coke bottle, I can't hand it back to Mr Cola and demand that he reuse it or dispose of it in an environmentally friendly manner.
|
cab
|
| bagpuss wrote: | | I am now struggling to remember whether it was you or my mums OH who suggested that wine makers should just use like 6 different bottle designs and we should just return them for cleaning |
I've been saying precisely that for years; if your mums OH says the same thing then he is clearly a wiser man than I gave him credit for 
| Quote: |
Certainly most glassware could have this sort of model applied to them
As far as plastic containers go it might be a little more difficult but I don't think they would really need to make them that much more sturdy to make them more resusable then you just need big vasts of drinks, margerine and other such things and then it would be far easy but I suspect the manufacturers would have none of it |
Or start putting things back into re-useable glass bottles rather than plastic ones.
|
cab
|
| Behemoth wrote: |
Ahh but this would stifle innovation they would argue..
|
Except of course that the truly innovative component would immediately corner the whole market.
|
Jonnyboy
|
| cab wrote: | | Behemoth wrote: |
Ahh but this would stifle innovation they would argue..
|
Except of course that the truly innovative component would immediately corner the whole market. |
Not unless it was priced as cheaply as the crap alternative it wouldn't, why else aren't we all use eco light bulbs?
|
cab
|
| Jonnyboy wrote: | | cab wrote: | | Behemoth wrote: |
Ahh but this would stifle innovation they would argue..
|
Except of course that the truly innovative component would immediately corner the whole market. |
Not unless it was priced as cheaply as the crap alternative it wouldn't, why else aren't we all use eco light bulbs? |
Because light fittings are still compatible with crap light bulbs, and because the crap ones aren't priced according to their environmental damage. Go back to the example of car parts, your example that Behemoth was commenting on (and I was answering), a truly innovative change that is better than the existing component would replace the older components as newly constructed vehicles replaced older ones.
Not that I propose a one size fits all approach to the automotive industry, I'm just following through that argument to its rational conclusion.
|
@Calli
|
Once upon a time.......fizzy drinks were sold in returnable glass bottles. Now the handling and transportation costs have made this route prohibitive. It is always the transport and handling hidden costs to any product!
Are we consuming such vast quantities all round? I am always horrified each trip to our recycling point by how much I am taking......and we are trying?????? 
|
Jonnyboy
|
| cab wrote: |
Because light fittings are still compatible with crap light bulbs, and because the crap ones aren't priced according to their environmental damage. Go back to the example of car parts, your example that Behemoth was commenting on (and I was answering), a truly innovative change that is better than the existing component would replace the older components as newly constructed vehicles replaced older ones. |
I don't think the fittings has anything to do with it, unless you forced people to put eco only fittings in new homes.
What I'm saying in both cases is the commercial realities get in the way, an eco light bulb is a fantastic innovation, but people don't care enough to fit them in their houses.
Take ABS in cars, it's great and it saves lives, but many cars are still sold without it as standard.
Going back to the bottle thing, great idea but coke will never agree to it. As you pointed out with the environmental aspect of light bulbs, we need legislation to push these things through.
I guess one of the problems was the advent of plastic bottles which did away with the deposit on glass ones, we should bring that back.
|
wellington womble
|
Building regs now state that energy saving light bulb fittings must be fitted in at least 3/10 rooms in any new house. Himself fits them in all rooms cos its easier that working out how many he needs, and people immediately request that they are removed, usually having never tried them, or having any good reason why they don't want them.
I suppose at least recylcing is getting people to start taking responisbility for their waste - no-one changes habits overnight, I guess. We recylce a lot, and I don't worry too much about it at the moment, as I think we still bin too much, so I'm concentrating on that at the moment.
|
cab
|
| Jonnyboy wrote: |
I don't think the fittings has anything to do with it, unless you forced people to put eco only fittings in new homes.
|
I was hinting at that, yes.
| Quote: |
What I'm saying in both cases is the commercial realities get in the way, an eco light bulb is a fantastic innovation, but people don't care enough to fit them in their houses.
|
That's enturely true, because the cost of lightbulbs isn't related to environmental cost of using them. The sensible environmental approach would be to change that.
| Quote: | Take ABS in cars, it's great and it saves lives, but many cars are still sold without it as standard.
|
Think of it in terms of the standard car components argument; suppose ABS were required as standard in new vehicles? How would that change things? Would that in any way inhibit new innovation?
| Quote: |
Going back to the bottle thing, great idea but coke will never agree to it. As you pointed out with the environmental aspect of light bulbs, we need legislation to push these things through.
|
Then coke can stick their bottles where the sun doesn't shine Really, they aren't the only company to haver distinctive containers, and the commercial interests of a few do not outweigh the environmental beefits.
| Quote: |
I guess one of the problems was the advent of plastic bottles which did away with the deposit on glass ones, we should bring that back. |
I agree wholeheartedly.
|
Jonnyboy
|
My point on ABS was that it's a fantastic innovation that hasn't immediately cornered the market.
What we seem to be converging on is that many of these innovations that benefit the environment are stymied by market forces and the fact that environmentally damaging products are cheaper to produce and sell, and have the benefit of an existing volume market.
It seems that more environmental legislation is the only way forward. Hopefully it could be in the form of short term support.
|
cab
|
| Jonnyboy wrote: | My point on ABS was that it's a fantastic innovation that hasn't immediately cornered the market.
|
But in your standardised car world, it would.
| Quote: |
What we seem to be converging on is that many of these innovations that benefit the environment are stymied by market forces and the fact that environmentally damaging products are cheaper to produce and sell, and have the benefit of an existing volume market.
It seems that more environmental legislation is the only way forward. Hopefully it could be in the form of short term support. |
There isn't any evidence that any major political party in the UK take any of this seriously anyway. Ought we consider direct pressure on the European parliament?
|
Jonnyboy
|
I'm less hopeful that the EU parliament will do anything than I am that our government will.
|
tahir
|
Legislation on either a local or European level is the only way we're going to move forward in the short term on waste reduction and energy efficiency in this country
|
Jonnyboy
|
| tahir wrote: | | Legislation on either a local or European level is the only way we're going to move forward in the short term on waste reduction and energy efficiency in this country |
I agree, but it's still a minority issue, despite it's effect on the entire population.
|
tahir
|
| Jonnyboy wrote: | | tahir wrote: | | Legislation on either a local or European level is the only way we're going to move forward in the short term on waste reduction and energy efficiency in this country |
I agree, but it's still a minority issue, despite it's effect on the entire population. |
Absolutely, my little bruv has just bought a car that averages 22mpg, even though I spoke to him about alternatives and the fact that he can't actually drive it (legally) to anywhere near it's capabilities in the real world. There's many more of them than there is of us, that's why legislation is essential, this needs to go hand in hand with an increase in fuel costs and proper taxation on aviation fuel
|
Jonnyboy
|
Catch 22, How do we introduce legislation in a democracy when the majority don't support it?
|
tahir
|
| Jonnyboy wrote: | | Catch 22, How do we introduce legislation in a democracy when the majority don't support it? |
Happens everyday, we don't vote on every bit of legislation that is introduced, we trust our elected representatives to do the right thing.
|
Jonnyboy
|
| tahir wrote: | | Jonnyboy wrote: | | Catch 22, How do we introduce legislation in a democracy when the majority don't support it? |
Happens everyday, we don't vote on every bit of legislation that is introduced, we trust our elected representatives to do the right thing. |
But as said earlier, none of the main parties are taking this seriously. As a minority how can we effect change?
|
tahir
|
| Jonnyboy wrote: | | But as said earlier, none of the main parties are taking this seriously. As a minority how can we effect change? |
Sometimes vocal minorities (see fundamentalist muslims) have an impact WAY beyond what you'd expect, I think places like this are a good start, if we move only one person to become more deeply involved in the political structures that can enable such legislation then that's a start.
|
bagpuss
|
Here is another suggestion which is kind of related but not really about recycling
This is from my mothers OH who has suggested that all new build houses should be forced to have a small wind turbine and some solar cells to provide at least 25% of there electricity
This should reduce demand on our existing infrastructure and also improve matters when the coal and oil runs out
|
tahir
|
| bagpuss wrote: | This is from my mothers OH who has suggested that all new build houses should be forced to have a small wind turbine and some solar cells to provide at least 25% of there electricity
|
Just an increase in insulation and airtightness in new builds could cut energy demands substantially, an obligation to invest in renewables too would be brilliant, both are a long way off (in the UK at least)
|
bagpuss
|
| tahir wrote: |
Just an increase in insulation and airtightness in new builds could cut energy demands substantially, an obligation to invest in renewables too would be brilliant, both are a long way off (in the UK at least) |
I think my mums full list included not only power sources but also triple glazing and proper insulation
I think their main premise was that if it is insisted on at the first build stage it is a lot cheaper than doing it after the fact
|
tahir
|
| bagpuss wrote: | | tahir wrote: |
Just an increase in insulation and airtightness in new builds could cut energy demands substantially, an obligation to invest in renewables too would be brilliant, both are a long way off (in the UK at least) |
I think my mums full list included not only power sources but also triple glazing and proper insulatation |
The AECB (www.aecb.net) are involved in drafting the next generation of building regs but it's a long and extremely slow process and from what I've heard will probably bypass the current spate of building mania in the UK
|
Jonnyboy
|
| bagpuss wrote: | Here is another suggestion which is kind of related but not really about recycling
This is from my mothers OH who has suggested that all new build houses should be forced to have a small wind turbine and some solar cells to provide at least 25% of there electricity
This should reduce demand on our existing infrastructure and also improve matters when the coal and oil runs out |
I would certainly go for some kind of system where a combination of environmentally friendly products must be utilised. So if solar or wind power wasn’t practical you would get a benefit for using recycled materials or geothermal heating for example.
New builds are zero vat rated so your rebate could be related to how environmentally friendly your build is.
I know that the insulation on our house is far, far better than it used to be. We seem to have stuff rammed in everywhere. Even the beads in the cavity wall have a heat reflective coating.
|
tawny owl
|
| Jonnyboy wrote: | | What I'm saying in both cases is the commercial realities get in the way, an eco light bulb is a fantastic innovation, but people don't care enough to fit them in their houses. |
I think that's a little unfair. They [i]are[/i} expensive, and quite a number of them don't seem to be very good: they take ages to warm up to any sort of light, and even when they do, it's still quite poor; they're usually bigger (some a lot bigger) than a normal bulb, which means they won't fit some light fittings; and the early ones at least used to blow after a very short life, and when you consider they were costing 6/7 quid, you can't really blame people for not trying them again.
I have tried several different types, and I'm sorry, but I just can't hack the crap light that they all seem to give out., perhaps because I have bad sight anyway, but I get eyestrain and headaches after a very short while. Most of my lights are now halogen, and as they're only 20/30 watt, I think that's still doing my bit.
|
