Tradbritfowlco
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Best breed for bacon?On the farm I have a spacious stable (I assume it once housed a working hrose or two?) and attached, walled yard - perfect for a couple of weaners I reckon!
I want loads of bacon! bacon bacon bacon - love it. So what breed is going to give me the best/most bacon? Gloucester old spot?
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Stacey
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We get brilliant bacon from our Tamworth x Landrace. The Tamworth is an ace flavour and the Landrace keeps it leaner. Not sure about keeping pigs in a yard though - will they be able to dig?
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Tradbritfowlco
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No, it's a solid floor, I'd be sticking a load of straw down for them to root in etc.
where did you get the landraceXtams from? is that a common cross I'm likely to find?
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Stacey
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Hmm - I wouldn't be happy about keeping pigs on a hard floor myself. They like to dig stuff up with their snouts.
We did the Tamworth Landrace cross ourselves. Tamworth sows and Landrace AI. Guess that's not much use to you really 
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RichardW
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Get what every you can localy if you are just buying weaners in. Once you choose to have your own sow then choose a breed to keep.
Justme
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Rob R
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That is a question to which there are as many answers as there are respondents, Chris will be along shortly to say that Welsh pigs are the best. I'd go with Justme's advice & just get what are available & make your own mind up. Most people either do that or buy the breed that appeals to them most visually, going on to promote that breed as the very best.
The very best bacon I've had was from a Large Black, although GOS, Saddleback, Tamworth, & various others have all been very good.
As long as they aren't on bare concrete a walled yard will be fine for them & they'll be perfectly happy providing they've got plenty of fresh bedding/other carbonaecous material to root in- and they'll make great compost out of it! The worst thing for many commercial pigs isn't what's underfoot (which must be freely draining, wether inside or out) but the air & sunlight quality.
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Stacey
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It just seems bit rich that I get told it's best to be 'natural' but it's ok to keep pigs on hard ground? 
Guess it's not what you know.......
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Mary-Jane
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| Stacey wrote: | It just seems bit rich that I get told it's best to be 'natural' but it's ok to keep pigs on hard ground?
Guess it's not what you know....... |
I'm with you on this one Stacey. I realise we're complete beginners at pig keeping and it probably is 'okay' to keep pigs on hard ground - but it isn't natural to my mind. Ours love digging with their snouts and I cannot imagine keeping them in a concrete yard, even if they have got loads to root around in.
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Rob R
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It depends, you can see pigs in trully awful conditions on poorly drained soils causing erosion, nutrient leaching & further drainage problems, not to mention the effect it has on the pigs (there was a lot of those sprung up round here on the wolds about fifteen years ago when demand for free range pork really started to increase), equally you can see excellent conditions in deep litter housed systems.
To be 'natural' for a pig you need lots of established tree cover & plenty of litter & vegetation (as opposed to just soil). Healthy decaying litter discourages pathogenic bacterial build up (as does natural sunlight), but wet litter/water logged soilds encourage pathogens.
It's definitely what you know.
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Pel
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Its fine to keep pigs on hard ground, ours get fattened up on brick floors, but they will need a muck out every other day when small, and when they get bigger every day.
They can root in the straw, and if you have a veg patch throw in some veg, and they will have great fun, anything long e.g. leeks, brussel sprout stems they love to play tug of war... quite comical when one hits the other, and the other charges the hitter.
I would love try Large black bacon, i've heard it is the best and looks nice too.
Out of the mixed lot at work, I would say the pedigree welsh or the landrace x (tamworthxwelsh). But with weaners just go for what ever you can get like what Justme said.
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Tradbritfowlco
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Hey, I'm perfectly happy with the large black idea, they are one of my favourites!  Lincolnshire is full of pigs, I'm confident I'll be able to find some!
I'm not going for 'natural', just what works in my situation and doesn't compromise welfare to much for my liking. I've seen pigs outdoors thigh-deep in mud, and crammed into crates etc. in commercial set-ups. A nice strawed yard and stable to shelter in seems a pretty cosy compromise.
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Tradbritfowlco
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found a breeder in boston 
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Stacey
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| Mary-Jane wrote: | | Stacey wrote: | It just seems bit rich that I get told it's best to be 'natural' but it's ok to keep pigs on hard ground?
Guess it's not what you know....... |
I'm with you on this one Stacey. I realise we're complete beginners at pig keeping and it probably is 'okay' to keep pigs on hard ground - but it isn't natural to my mind. Ours love digging with their snouts and I cannot imagine keeping them in a concrete yard, even if they have got loads to root around in. |
I've been keeping pigs for 7 years and I really don't think I'd ever be happy keeping them on hard ground. I've had snide digs about my goat husabndry for considering restraining her for 5 minutes a day but suddenly it's ok to keep pigs in conditions that I believe aren't in the least bit conducive to a happy pig for 6+ months?
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Tradbritfowlco
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| Stacey wrote: | | Mary-Jane wrote: | | Stacey wrote: | It just seems bit rich that I get told it's best to be 'natural' but it's ok to keep pigs on hard ground?
Guess it's not what you know....... |
I'm with you on this one Stacey. I realise we're complete beginners at pig keeping and it probably is 'okay' to keep pigs on hard ground - but it isn't natural to my mind. Ours love digging with their snouts and I cannot imagine keeping them in a concrete yard, even if they have got loads to root around in. |
I've been keeping pigs for 7 years and I really don't think I'd ever be happy keeping them on hard ground. I've had snide digs about my goat husabndry for considering restraining her for 5 minutes a day but suddenly it's ok to keep pigs in conditions that I believe aren't in the least bit conducive to a happy pig for 6+ months? |
I really hope you're not referring to me there? I'm not the slightest bit concerned about the goat; your goat do what you want, I don't make up welfare laws. I was actually thinking of it from a hassle for you point of view. 
Please don't drag your childish hissy fit into my completely unrelated post.
and you may not believe these are not good conditions for a pig, but I think we'd both agree that there are far worse conditions out there, so once you have persuaded all worse systems to change, I will reconsider getting some pigs for you OK?
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Stacey
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| Tradbritfowlco wrote: | | Stacey wrote: | | Mary-Jane wrote: | | Stacey wrote: | It just seems bit rich that I get told it's best to be 'natural' but it's ok to keep pigs on hard ground?
Guess it's not what you know....... |
I'm with you on this one Stacey. I realise we're complete beginners at pig keeping and it probably is 'okay' to keep pigs on hard ground - but it isn't natural to my mind. Ours love digging with their snouts and I cannot imagine keeping them in a concrete yard, even if they have got loads to root around in. |
I've been keeping pigs for 7 years and I really don't think I'd ever be happy keeping them on hard ground. I've had snide digs about my goat husabndry for considering restraining her for 5 minutes a day but suddenly it's ok to keep pigs in conditions that I believe aren't in the least bit conducive to a happy pig for 6+ months? |
I really hope you're not referring to me there? I'm not the slightest bit concerned about the goat; your goat do what you want, I don't make up welfare laws. I was actually thinking of it from a hassle for you point of view.
Please don't drag your childish hissy fit into my completely unrelated post.
and you may not believe these are not good conditions for a pig, but I think we'd both agree that there are far worse conditions out there, so once you have persuaded all worse systems to change, I will reconsider getting some pigs for you OK? |
Iirc you're the one who started to bring emotional terminology into the thread about my goat and started talking about force and strapping down. Childish hissy fit? So, there are worse conditions, so what? It doesn't alter the fact that you're intending to keep pigs in unatural conditions knowing full well that they aren't ideal and just because you want some bacon. Personally I think that makes you a selfish bellend and I certainly won't be paying any attention to your opinions on animal husbandry.
I do hope you're ok with that 
I refer you to your own advice
| Quote: | | but perhaps looking at it from the animals POV will help? |
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Tradbritfowlco
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yeah, I couldn't care less to be honest, you know damn well it's fine and you're just trying to make me feel bad because you believe I was insulting you in the other thread. real mature.
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Stacey
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| Tradbritfowlco wrote: | | yeah, I couldn't care less to be honest, you know damn well it's fine and you're just trying to make me feel bad because you believe I was insulting you in the other thread. real mature. |
What makes you think you're that important? I'll challenge hypocrisy wherever I see it, you're not special.
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Mary-Jane
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Okay guys - let's cool it and settle to differ over these issues please. Everyone has their own ways of approaching animal husbandry and it's important to respect that.
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Stacey
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| Mary-Jane wrote: | | Okay guys - let's cool it and settle to differ over these issues please. Everyone has their own ways of approaching animal husbandry and it's important to respect that. |
No. I don't think I will. I'm fed up with the double standards on this site.
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Tradbritfowlco
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 hypocrisy? get over yourself.
why the emphasis on being on soil? in a strawed yard they have:
litter
company
shelter
plentiful food and clean water
space to move freely/play
vegetation can be brought in
and I can add objects for amusement. pretty much EVERYTHING that can be provided in a paddock, except that when it rains it won't get muddy.
I'm happy with that, as the RSPCA would be.
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Pel
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At work we are with RSPCA Freedom Foods, and get inspected every year, and they do not mind the growers being on hard ground as long as they have a material to root in, water for drinking and cooling in and pens are kept clean, inspectors are happy with this.
However we are Organic as well, except for the pigs because of them being on hard ground from birth to slaughter.
If we put them on soft ground for a third of their life then they could be classed as organic.
Everyone has their individual standards and the two above are legalised standards (if thats the right term)
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Stacey
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| Tradbritfowlco wrote: | hypocrisy? get over yourself.
why the emphasis on being on soil? in a strawed yard they have:
litter
company
shelter
plentiful food and clean water
space to move freely/play
vegetation can be brought in
and I can add objects for amusement. pretty much EVERYTHING that can be provided in a paddock, except that when it rains it won't get muddy.
I'm happy with that, as the RSPCA would be. |
RSPCA???!!! Don't make me laugh. Pigs dig with their snouts. They do it all day, every day, it's what their snouts are designed for. It makes them happy. Your pigs won't be happy. Fine - your pigs, I don't really care but when you start preaching to other people about animal welfare prepare to be challenged on it. Personally I don't think it's acceptable to keep animals like that just because you want some bacon. Buy it from somewhere the pigs have been kept in better conditions.
This is just another shining example of downsizer hypocrisy
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Tavascarow
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Getting back to the point in question.
If you want bacon get gilts, boars may be tainted by the time they get to bacon weight.
If you don't mind fat bacon my favourite would be GOS but for leaner & longer pigs a commercial cross is better.
I know bacon outdoor reared is going to taste better than that reared on concrete but if you feed them plenty of greens & roots there won't be much difference.
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Tradbritfowlco
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well likewise, i reserve the right to challenge your ideas on welfare
; I'm perfectly happy to eat pigs kept in these conditions. Their snouts can be used to dig in straw and flip over objects such as tyres etc. I also think it's unrealistic to expect to feed the population entirely on free range animals, there has to be some kind of compromise. Keeping animals in captivity IS unnatural, full stop, so you can't use the old 'it's not natural' route.
why you think its a heinous crime to keep pigs in yards, but OK to get milk from a goat so stressed by the milking process she has to be hobbled, I don't know?
see, it works both ways.
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Tradbritfowlco
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| TAVASCAROW wrote: | Getting back to the point in question.
If you want bacon get gilts, boars may be tainted by the time they get to bacon weight.
If you don't mind fat bacon my favourite would be GOS but for leaner & longer pigs a commercial cross is better.
I know bacon outdoor reared is going to taste better than that reared on concrete but if you feed them plenty of greens & roots there won't be much difference.
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thanks for some constructive input! they can have plenty of greens thats for sure!
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jema
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All I know about Bacon is that Alisons' very simple cures works very well for her and I know that from tasting her bacon, it never worked as well with anything I have cured from butchers or farm.
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Stacey
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Oh, the selective editors are out in force tonight
Hypocrisy reigns and we all get wet
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NeathChris
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You need a long pig for bacon. I would use a modern breed or a traditional x modern.
Personally i wouldnt use tamworths, to small an eye of meat on the loin, saddlebacks or GOS need crossingwith a modern pig to cut the fat down.
I run my pigs outdoors, but NOTHING wrong with concrete or hard floor as long as they are well looked after with adequate bedding.
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Stacey
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| NeathChris wrote: | You need a long pig for bacon. I would use a modern breed or a traditional x modern.
Personally i wouldnt use tamworths, to small an eye of meat on the loin, saddlebacks or GOS need crossingwith a modern pig to cut the fat down.
I run my pigs outdoors, but NOTHING wrong with concrete or hard floor as long as they are well looked after with adequate bedding. |
In your opinion.............
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Stacey
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Is there anyone here selling pork from pigs kept on hard ground? Are they selling them as happy meat? Are they open and transparent about it?
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RichardW
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We keep our pigs (and all other animals bar the sheep) in during the winter as it would be cruel to keep them out as our land for the pigs is very very wet over winter. Our winter pen is very large for the number of pigs has a sepperate sleeping area & we add LOTS of straw & other bedding in the sleeping & rooting area. Yes its a solid flour but it does slope & is well drained so does not become foul.
Justme
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Stacey
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As long as you're open about it. Personally I wouldn't buy meat from you now but as long as you're transparent about your husbandry and the fact that the pigs are kept in it's up to people buying to make an informed decision. You don't sell that as 'ethical meat' though do you?
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Pel
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| Stacey wrote: | | Is there anyone here selling pork from pigs kept on hard ground? Are they selling them as happy meat? Are they open and transparent about it? |
Yep we do, to the thousands of public who come and visit us each year. They can see how the pigs are kept, they can see what they eat, they can even smell and feel what they eat and what straw feels like.
We even have the odd one or two saying isnt it cruel to keep them outdoors in the sun... to which i say they have the choice to be in or out, then i normal get told, i should make them go inside
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NeathChris
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| Quote: | I run my pigs outdoors, but NOTHING wrong with concrete or hard floor as long as they are well looked after with adequate bedding.
In your opinion.............
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I would like to think my opinion on pig keeping is an informed one.
It is proven that the bet environment for a pig is at 19oc on a deep litter system whether in or outdoors.
It is also important to periodically run outdoor pigs on concrete from time to time to help keep their feet in good condition and wear down overgrowing feet.
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Pel
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| NeathChris wrote: |
It is proven that the bet environment for a pig is at 19oc on a deep litter system whether in or outdoors.
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I've got a book that says the same thing.. in a more detail way over about 5 chapters.. The growing and finishing pig: improving efficiency. you can buy it off amazon 
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Stacey
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Isn't it amazing what the public will buy just because they're told it's 'ethical'  And isn't it interesting that the people saying that it's ok to run pigs on concrete are the ones who stand to make a financial gain?
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Stacey
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| Pel wrote: | | NeathChris wrote: |
It is proven that the bet environment for a pig is at 19oc on a deep litter system whether in or outdoors.
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I've got a book that says the same thing.. in a more detail way over about 5 chapters.. The growing and finishing pig: improving efficiency. you can buy it off amazon |
And there we have it.
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Pel
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| Stacey wrote: | | Isn't it amazing what the public will buy just because they're told it's 'ethical' |
How do you mean?
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Stacey
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| Pel wrote: | | Stacey wrote: | | Isn't it amazing what the public will buy just because they're told it's 'ethical' |
How do you mean? |
I think it's quite clear
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Behemoth
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| Stacey wrote: | | As long as you're open about it. Personally I wouldn't buy meat from you now but as long as you're transparent about your husbandry and the fact that the pigs are kept in it's up to people buying to make an informed decision. You don't sell that as 'ethical meat' though do you? |
Would it be ethical to keep pigs outdoors 'on natural ground' in unsuitable conditions?
I don't know much about keeping pigs by the way but I thought Rob's earlier posts help put this discussion in context as to the main issues to be considered.
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Pel
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| Stacey wrote: | | Pel wrote: | | NeathChris wrote: |
It is proven that the bet environment for a pig is at 19oc on a deep litter system whether in or outdoors.
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I've got a book that says the same thing.. in a more detail way over about 5 chapters.. The growing and finishing pig: improving efficiency. you can buy it off amazon |
And there we have it. |
I would like to point out that the book was published in 1988, so improving back then would be like how some people keep them on here, the pig industry has improved a lot since then.
Even then they new what the best environment was.
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Stacey
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| Behemoth wrote: | | Stacey wrote: | | As long as you're open about it. Personally I wouldn't buy meat from you now but as long as you're transparent about your husbandry and the fact that the pigs are kept in it's up to people buying to make an informed decision. You don't sell that as 'ethical meat' though do you? |
Would it be ethical to keep pigs outdoors 'on natural ground' in unsuitable conditions?
I don't know much about keeping pigs by the way but I thought Rob's earlier posts help put this discussion in context as to the main issues to be considered. |
Define unsuitable conditions.
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Stacey
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| Pel wrote: | | Stacey wrote: | | Pel wrote: | | NeathChris wrote: |
It is proven that the bet environment for a pig is at 19oc on a deep litter system whether in or outdoors.
|
I've got a book that says the same thing.. in a more detail way over about 5 chapters.. The growing and finishing pig: improving efficiency. you can buy it off amazon |
And there we have it. |
I would like to point out that the book was published in 1988, so improving back then would be like traditional now, probably in the same way most people keep on here.
Even then they new what the best environment was. |
I don't understand your point. I know I woudn't want you looking after my pigs though
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Behemoth
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I thought Rob did it earlier.
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Cathryn
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Define ethical, define natural.
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Stacey
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| Behemoth wrote: | | I thought Rob did it earlier. |
So, are you making a point or just piggy backing someone elses?
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Pel
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| Tradbritfowlco wrote: | | found a breeder in boston |
Hope you find 2 lovely large black gilt TBFco.
Are you feeding meal or pellets?
meal when in poo form is easy to shift, compared to pellet in the form of poo... at the smallholders show i was looking at the poo thinking "that ones pellet... that ones meal.." Pellets poo gets quite sticky, so is a bit tricky when its a hot day, as it tends to 'melt' on.
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Behemoth
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| Rob R wrote: | It depends, you can see pigs in trully awful conditions on poorly drained soils causing erosion, nutrient leaching & further drainage problems, not to mention the effect it has on the pigs (there was a lot of those sprung up round here on the wolds about fifteen years ago when demand for free range pork really started to increase), equally you can see excellent conditions in deep litter housed systems.
To be 'natural' for a pig you need lots of established tree cover & plenty of litter & vegetation (as opposed to just soil). Healthy decaying litter discourages pathogenic bacterial build up (as does natural sunlight), but wet litter/water logged soilds encourage pathogens.
It's definitely what you know. |
I've seen the farms Rob's on about, ex girlfriend's family had a farm like this in Lincolnshire. Outside, arks, flat, hard, open, fields. Revolutionary for the time (early 90's) but I'd not say it was suitable even if it was free range.
OH now jokes that if I'd stayed with that one I'd have land and pigs now.
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Stacey
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| ruby wrote: | | Define ethical, define natural. |
Ethical can't be defined because it's totally personal - therefore people buying ehtical goods are fooling themsleves that it matches their ethics when in reality it's a fairly meaningless term. For example, I ddin't know that the meat producers on here were happy keeping pigs on hard ground and calling it ethical. I certainly woudn't buy pork from anyone here now. I assumed that their ethics matched mine - it's a mistake we all make I think.
Natural? I don't think pigs are designed to be kept on concrete? By watching their natural daily behaviour I see that what they really enjoy doing is rooting. Pigs snouts are massively strong and no amount of hay or soft bedding is going to satisfy that urge. If someone's land is getting too muddy for pigs to live outdoors all year then it's not suitable land for pigs.
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Nicky cigreen
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| NeathChris wrote: | | It is also important to periodically run outdoor pigs on concrete from time to time to help keep their feet in good condition and wear down overgrowing feet. |
thats interesting.. we are still working up to keeping pigs.. the arrangement we have is an old piggery - all concrete. but we want to give them access to ...well.. normal ground with mud etc... so we planned to use the bay, the concrete yard and a fenced off bit of ground for routing etc. I am thinking this would work out ok for both their feet and rooting needs
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NeathChris
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Would work well colour it green.
Alot of pigs kept soley outdoors tend to have foot trouble, so it is necessary to run them on concrete now and then to sort out there feet.
Stacey, i think you just want an agument, you better go and look at pig systems and draw your own conclussions, each to there own and diferen systems for different places and pigs to achive the desired result and end product.
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Tradbritfowlco
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| Pel wrote: | | Tradbritfowlco wrote: | | found a breeder in boston |
Hope you find 2 lovely large black gilt TBFco.
Are you feeding meal or pellets?
meal when in poo form is easy to shift, compared to pellet in the form of poo... at the smallholders show i was looking at the poo thinking "that ones pellet... that ones meal.." Pellets poo gets quite sticky, so is a bit tricky when its a hot day, as it tends to 'melt' on. |
I'll probably look into making up my own feed, coz I like doing that for the birdies already (though at the moment they're on pellets), but if that's not possible....I'll have to think about what I'm feeding from, and how much might get wasted, like if meal gets chucked about and just drops through the straw and gets wasted thats no good, they can root for pellets in straw though and stand a chance of finding them again! I don't mind it creating more work for me to shovel about, as long as its not making the feedbill any bigger than it needs to be!
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Stacey
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| NeathChris wrote: | Would work well colour it green.
Alot of pigs kept soley outdoors tend to have foot trouble, so it is necessary to run them on concrete now and then to sort out there feet.
Stacey, i think you just want an agument, you better go and look at pig systems and draw your own conclussions, each to there own and diferen systems for different places and pigs to achive the desired result and end product. |
In 7 years not one of our pigs has had the slightest sign of foot trouble. The word 'systems' sums it up for me. It's all about money at the end of the day. Profit. Products.
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RichardW
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| Stacey wrote: |
Define unsuitable conditions. |
In my case land that is so water logged that the animals & arks (and the soil) would be at the bottom of the slope if the pigs were left on it over winter. It also gives the land time to recover so that they have some thing to root for when they go back in the spring. The animals would be so wet cold that they would be suseptable to problems.
| Stacey wrote: |
If someone's land is getting too muddy for pigs to live outdoors all year then it's not suitable land for pigs. |
Quite possibly you are right but by that account then virtualy all milk producing cows are on land unsuitable for keeping them on. Bet you still buy / use milk (I wont mention the goat milking oh bugger just have, I was with you on that one though). We have to use what we have to the best of its & your abillities. Nothing is perfect for any useage.
Most of my sales are direct face to face so people can see what I do & how I do it (some even choose which pig thay want). If you could actualy see how pigs still do root on a deep liter system I am sure you might think differently. Come the bad weather the sows are happy to come inside. How do I tell? well if I need to bring them in for any reason in good weather they give me the run around & its a multi person long job, in winter its open the field gate & they are waiting at the pen gate to get in the nice dry warm pen.
Justme
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Pel
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| Tradbritfowlco wrote: |
I'll probably look into making up my own feed, coz I like doing that for the birdies already (though at the moment they're on pellets), but if that's not possible....I'll have to think about what I'm feeding from, and how much might get wasted, like if meal gets chucked about and just drops through the straw and gets wasted thats no good, they can root for pellets in straw though and stand a chance of finding them again! I don't mind it creating more work for me to shovel about, as long as its not making the feedbill any bigger than it needs to be! |
If you left one part of the concrete area free from straw, the bit outside their indoor shelter you could feed meal or pellets on the floor. Not much point wasting straw outside as it will get rained on (IMO). The only problem i can see with chucking pellets into the straw, is that any they don't find will go mouldy and attract rats/mice into their pen.
The only thing about feeding meal is that you need to make sure you have enough protein and carboydrates and not to have too much of either, I know NeathChris feeds meal that he mixes himself, but i'm sure there are others on here that can give you pointers, also any free food that you can mix in saves on costs.
At work we used to feed meal, but now on pellets, if i could change it i would go back to meal.
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Stacey
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| Justme wrote: | | Stacey wrote: |
Define unsuitable conditions. |
In my case land that is so water logged that the animals & arks (and the soil) would be at the bottom of the slope if the pigs were left on it over winter. It also gives the land time to recover so that they have some thing to root for when they go back in the spring. The animals would be so wet cold that they would be suseptable to problems.
| Stacey wrote: |
If someone's land is getting too muddy for pigs to live outdoors all year then it's not suitable land for pigs. |
Quite possibly you are right but by that account then virtualy all milk producing cows are on land unsuitable for keeping them on. Bet you still buy / use milk (I wont mention the goat milking oh bugger just have, I was with you on that one though). We have to use what we have to the best of its & your abillities. Nothing is perfect for any useage.
Most of my sales are direct face to face so people can see what I do & how I do it (some even choose which pig thay want). If you could actualy see how pigs still do root on a deep liter system I am sure you might think differently. Come the bad weather the sows are happy to come inside. How do I tell? well if I need to bring them in for any reason in good weather they give me the run around & its a multi person long job, in winter its open the field gate & they are waiting at the pen gate to get in the nice dry warm pen.
Justme |
I have huge issues with the dairy industry and particularly vegetarians who lambaste me for raising animals for meat but drink milk and eat cheese. It's the reason we have a goat. The difference between your 'system' and what Tradbritfowlco is proposing is that your pigs are at least outdoor reared for a proportion of the time. As far as I understand it he/she's proposing to keep them on hard ground all year round.
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NeathChris
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I have seen many sows from free range/organic farms with terrible feet and legs. By feet trouble i mean they tend to drop onto their pasterns and not stand correctly.
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Stacey
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| NeathChris wrote: | | I have seen many sows from free range/organic farms with terrible feet and legs. By feet trouble i mean they tend to drop onto their pasterns and not stand correctly. |
Oh, that's alright then
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NeathChris
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Its not alright. Pigs need to be able to walk nd stand corectly to maintain essential functions and to be able to breed.
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Stacey
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| NeathChris wrote: | | Its not alright. Pigs need to be able to walk nd stand corectly to maintain essential functions and to be able to breed. |
I was being sarcastic - I don't see your point at all. If those sows have bad feet then they're not being looked after properly regardless of the 'system'. I'm not naive enough to think all free range/organic is good or equal but lots of people are and will happily buy without question.
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Tradbritfowlco
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| Pel wrote: | | Tradbritfowlco wrote: |
I'll probably look into making up my own feed, coz I like doing that for the birdies already (though at the moment they're on pellets), but if that's not possible....I'll have to think about what I'm feeding from, and how much might get wasted, like if meal gets chucked about and just drops through the straw and gets wasted thats no good, they can root for pellets in straw though and stand a chance of finding them again! I don't mind it creating more work for me to shovel about, as long as its not making the feedbill any bigger than it needs to be! |
If you left one part of the concrete area free from straw, the bit outside their indoor shelter you could feed meal or pellets on the floor. |
ah good thinking yes - but I would have a trough or some kind of feeder rather than throwing it on the floor - I meant if they chuck it about like the chickens do! I have an indian game cockerel and as soon as he gets near feed, he goes into a scratching frenzy and chucks it everywhere making mad hen-attracting noises. dunno how impressed the hens are about it
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Pel
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| Tradbritfowlco wrote: |
ah good thinking yes - but I would have a trough or some kind of feeder rather than throwing it on the floor - I meant if they chuck it about like the chickens do! I have an indian game cockerel and as soon as he gets near feed, he goes into a scratching frenzy and chucks it everywhere making mad hen-attracting noises. dunno how impressed the hens are about it |
Ahhh i see what you mean.. depends on if you get messy eaters, most eat in their trough but other pick it out and eat over the floor, so bits come out.. they do clean up afterwards though.
Stacey what are you getting at? apart from detering everyone from the orginal topic- Best breed for bacon
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Rob R
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| Stacey wrote: | | ruby wrote: | | Define ethical, define natural. |
Natural? I don't think pigs are designed to be kept on concrete? By watching their natural daily behaviour I see that what they really enjoy doing is rooting. Pigs snouts are massively strong and no amount of hay or soft bedding is going to satisfy that urge. If someone's land is getting too muddy for pigs to live outdoors all year then it's not suitable land for pigs. |
I take it you don't feed your sheep or goats any concentrates?
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Stacey
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Oh, here we go
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Behemoth
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..here we go, here we go, here we go-oh
Here we go!
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NeathChris
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I think a point comes where to coin a phrase "you cant educate pork" springs to mind.
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Stacey
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And what are the chances of you getting a slap on the wrist for that comment, eh chris? Somewhere between zero and fark all no doubt.
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Rob R
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I can't find the 'rest my case' emoticon, so I'll just consult my double standards checklist 
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Stacey
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| Rob R wrote: | | I can't find the 'rest my case' emoticon, so I'll just consult my double standards checklist |
What double standards would they be?
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Pel
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| Stacey wrote: | | Mary-Jane wrote: | | Okay guys - let's cool it and settle to differ over these issues please. Everyone has their own ways of approaching animal husbandry and it's important to respect that. |
No. I don't think I will. I'm fed up with the double standards on this site. |
These ones you said.
What are the double standards then? MJ was talking to everyone.
Edited- didn;t make sense
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Stacey
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| Pel wrote: | | Stacey wrote: | | Mary-Jane wrote: | | Okay guys - let's cool it and settle to differ over these issues please. Everyone has their own ways of approaching animal husbandry and it's important to respect that. |
No. I don't think I will. I'm fed up with the double standards on this site. |
These one you said. |
Pardon?
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Rob R
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The definition of natural, as quoted above 
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Stacey
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| Rob R wrote: | | The definition of natural, as quoted above |
I still don't understand the point you're trying to make.
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Pel
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Stacey,
neither do I, what you on about?
I quoted you saying double standard earlier, and the you asked what double standard to Rob, so surely you must know what they are, otherwise you wouldn't have said anything.
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Stacey
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Have you been drinking?
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Rob R
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Had you answered my question you might have followed, as you rolled your eyes I assumed you knew.
You said you don't think pigs are designed to be kept on concrete- that definition of 'natural' is a difficult one to follow up.
As for deep litter, two feet tends to surfice in satisfying that urge, but I've yet to see an adult get through four (best to build it up as the pig grows anyway).
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Stacey
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And what does any of that have to do with concentrates? And why is that definition of natural a difficult one to follow up?
Anyway - I see the 'mods' are in the room - it'll be interesting to see what ensues
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Rob R
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Because the rumen was not designed to consume concentrates.
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Behemoth
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Haven't we all?
If we're talking about 'exhibiting natural behaviours' doesn't feeding pellets or what ever mean you are keeping animals in an environment where they can't exhibit them. i.e. you have to supplement thier feed cos you're denying them access to their forage. I hasten to add I've only kept gerbils.
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Stacey
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| Rob R wrote: | | Because the rumen was not designed to consume concentrates. |
So because we give some supplemental feed it's ok for someone else to keep pigs on concrete? If we were feeding 100% concentrates I'd concede your point.
Would you like me to buy you some more straws to clutch?
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Stacey
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| Behemoth wrote: | Haven't we all?
If we're talking about 'exhibiting natural behaviours' doesn't feeding pellets or what ever mean you are keeping animals in an environment where they can't exhibit them. i.e. you have to supplement thier feed cos you're denying them access to their forage. I hasten to add I've only kept gerbils. |
Haven't we all what?
We feed concentrates as a supplement - not the entire feed. They forage - we certainly don't deny them that.
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Rob R
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The two are not connected, it is a point you were making about natural behaviour & keeping animals in unnatural environments.
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Stacey
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| Rob R wrote: | | The two are not connected, it is a point you were making about natural behaviour & keeping animals in unnatural environments. |
If the two are not connected then why are you mentioning it?
By the 'logic' being touted on this thread because some animals are treated badly everything is ok as long as we're treating them slightly less badly. I find that unpalatable on a site such as this.
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Behemoth
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| Stacey wrote: |
Haven't we all what? |
Been drinking....
multiple post faster that I can type.
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Stacey
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| Behemoth wrote: | | Stacey wrote: |
Haven't we all what? |
Been drinking....
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No
May I draw your attention to the pithy pop tune 'You don't have to take your clothes off to have a good time....'
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Behemoth
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| Rob R wrote: | | The two are not connected, it is a point you were making about natural behaviour & keeping animals in unnatural environments. |
Agriculture is an un-natural activity.
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Tradbritfowlco
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*slightly* less badly? how ridiculous. pigs that have everything pigs kept on soil have, except for one thing - they cannot dig soil - are only slightly less badly treated than pigs kept indoors in tiny beddingless crates with no other activity than to chew the bars? This 'argument' is insania.
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gil
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| Behemoth wrote: | | If we're talking about 'exhibiting natural behaviours' doesn't feeding pellets or what ever mean you are keeping animals in an environment where they can't exhibit them. i.e. you have to supplement thier feed cos you're denying them access to their forage. I hasten to add I've only kept gerbils. |
Not necessarily - hill sheep outwintered on the hill with acres and acres to roam and forage may still appreciate / need supplementary feed in the form of hay or silage. They're still exhibiting their natural sheepy behaviour, it's just that seasonal conditions are such that there's not sufficient fresh grass or whatever [e.g. heather] available. I assume that if no additional feed were supplied, they would lose weight and condition. Seeing as hill ewes are likely to be pregnant in winter, this would not be good for them or their imminent lambs.
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Stacey
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| Behemoth wrote: | | Rob R wrote: | | The two are not connected, it is a point you were making about natural behaviour & keeping animals in unnatural environments. |
Agriculture is an un-natural activity. |
Of course it is. I've never said otherwise but surely our responsibility as livestock keepers is to try to minimise any discomfort that can come about via the sliding scale of 'unaturalness'.
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Stacey
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| Tradbritfowlco wrote: | | *slightly* less badly? how ridiculous. pigs that have everything pigs kept on soil have, except for one thing - they cannot dig soil - are only slightly less badly treated than pigs kept indoors in tiny beddingless crates with no other activity than to chew the bars? This 'argument' is insania. |
What?
Ok - I've reread it a few times and I think I've got the jist of what you're trying to say....
You may think of it as only 'one thing' but to the pig that is a very large part of what makes it happy. It's almost like saying that keeping a bird in a cage is only depriving it of 'one thing' .
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Behemoth
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| Stacey wrote: | | Behemoth wrote: | | Rob R wrote: | | The two are not connected, it is a point you were making about natural behaviour & keeping animals in unnatural environments. |
Agriculture is an un-natural activity. |
Of course it is. I've never said otherwise but surely our responsibility as livestock keepers is to try to minimise any discomfort that can come about via the sliding scale of 'unaturalness'. |
And within that is the sliding scale of what 'welfare' means.
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Rob R
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| Stacey wrote: | | Behemoth wrote: | | Rob R wrote: | | The two are not connected, it is a point you were making about natural behaviour & keeping animals in unnatural environments. |
Agriculture is an un-natural activity. |
Of course it is. I've never said otherwise but surely our responsibility as livestock keepers is to try to minimise any discomfort that can come about via the sliding scale of 'unaturalness'. |
Indeed. The original points provided were pigs on soil is not automatically better for the animal nor the environment, and neither are indoor pigs necessarily mis-treated or restricted from carrying out their natural behaviours. It all depends on the husbandry.
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Tradbritfowlco
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pigs in a strawed yard have:
shelter
clean bedding
plentiful food
fresh greenery
objects to play with
litter to root in
friends to be with
space to roam/play
fresh water to drink
the only difference to paddock pigs being that they cannot dig.
how is that only slightly better than factory farmed pigs who may not have half those things?
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Stacey
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| gil wrote: | | Behemoth wrote: | | If we're talking about 'exhibiting natural behaviours' doesn't feeding pellets or what ever mean you are keeping animals in an environment where they can't exhibit them. i.e. you have to supplement thier feed cos you're denying them access to their forage. I hasten to add I've only kept gerbils. |
Not necessarily - hill sheep outwintered on the hill with acres and acres to roam and forage may still appreciate / need supplementary feed in the form of hay or silage. They're still exhibiting their natural sheepy behaviour, it's just that seasonal conditions are such that there's not sufficient fresh grass or whatever [e.g. heather] available. I assume that if no additional feed were supplied, they would lose weight and condition. Seeing as hill ewes are likely to be pregnant in winter, this would not be good for them or their imminent lambs. |
That's a very good point. If left to their own devices many of the sheep would die of natural causes - as we require them to stay alive for food or financial reasons we intervene in many different ways as we need them to be alive and healthy.
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Stacey
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| Behemoth wrote: | | Stacey wrote: | | Behemoth wrote: | | Rob R wrote: | | The two are not connected, it is a point you were making about natural behaviour & keeping animals in unnatural environments. |
Agriculture is an un-natural activity. |
Of course it is. I've never said otherwise but surely our responsibility as livestock keepers is to try to minimise any discomfort that can come about via the sliding scale of 'unaturalness'. |
And within that is the sliding scale of what 'welfare' means. |
And ethics
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Stacey
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| Tradbritfowlco wrote: | pigs in a strawed yard have:
shelter
clean bedding
plentiful food
fresh greenery
objects to play with
litter to root in
friends to be with
space to roam/play
fresh water to drink
the only difference to paddock pigs being that they cannot dig.
how is that only slightly better than factory farmed pigs who may not have half those things? |
I've responded to this already
Have you ever seen a pig rooting?
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Behemoth
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of course.
Night nigth.
hic.
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Pel
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Stacey, Please answer the following as i would like to know your opinions.
How would you keep a pig?
where would you keep it? (indoor or out please say what condition the field would be in, in all four seasons)
What bedding material would you give it?
what would you feed it?
Where would the feed come from?
How would you know what was in that feed?
How would you know the pig is happy, what are the signals they give out?
What welfare scheme would you be with?
What breed of pig would you keep in your conditions?
Would you eat your pig?
What age would you send it off for slaughter? that would seem like it had a good length of life
Would you keep your pig even if it was making at least a loss of 12p a week?
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Stacey
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| Behemoth wrote: | of course.
Night nigth.
hic. |
Don't dream of pigs will you?
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Tradbritfowlco
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| Stacey wrote: | | Tradbritfowlco wrote: | pigs in a strawed yard have:
shelter
clean bedding
plentiful food
fresh greenery
objects to play with
litter to root in
friends to be with
space to roam/play
fresh water to drink
the only difference to paddock pigs being that they cannot dig.
how is that only slightly better than factory farmed pigs who may not have half those things? |
I've responded to this already
Have you ever seen a pig rooting? |
I've worked with pigs, yes I've seen them rooting.
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