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Hairyloon

Biogas injection...

I've heard that you can get RHI payments for producing biogas and injecting it into the gas mains.
Sounds a bit crazy, but it is up on the official website, but not very much information about it...

So I thought I would consult at the fountain of knowledge...

What do we know?
Nick

Do a search for biogas uk. Every non water company biogas producer is there, along with a ton of information. The main centre of excellence is in treforest at the Uni, and they're having an open day on Thursday this week. Probably not aimed at tiny individuals, but certainly communal groups are very much a target audience. If you want an invite, yell.

Free lunch, too.
Nick

http://www.biogas-info.co.uk/

And head to the NEC, first week in July. Free conference, addressing all your needs. And I'll buy the beer.
dpack

cat like

ive known cat stuff for a very long time and some of it is very sensible,low tech and local

whether these methods would qualify for adding subsidy to product i dont know but they do seem to know about the production og gas for local use

ps this stuff is usa based but cat are well worth a visit if you go to wales,they do courses etc but are often up for an informal chat with interested/ing folk
Hairyloon

The main centre of excellence is in treforest at the Uni, and they're having an open day on Thursday this week.

Pretty sure I can't do Thursday(s). But thank you for the offer.
Quote:
Probably not aimed at tiny individuals...

I'm not that small... who's been gossiping?!
Quote:
Free lunch, too.

I think I didn't want to know that, since I can't go. Sad
Mistress Rose

Is CAT what used to be the Centre for Alternative Technology? We went there once and it was quite interesting, but could have done with more people to talk to as well as the exhibits.
Hairyloon

Is CAT what used to be the Centre for Alternative Technology? We went there once and it was quite interesting, but could have done with more people to talk to as well as the exhibits.

I believe so. Went a long time back and was fairly disappointed.
Probably worth another visit by now, if they haven't progressed much then it's worth the trip to give me something new to complain about. Wink
Nick

They're featured in this weeks Kitchen Cabinet podcast. Something about solar cookers, it seems. Nick

Seems biogas is not for small concerns, but for larger ones. Essentially, the setup problems, monitoring and control is the same for a large and small set up, which makes it uneconomical below a certain size.

They're playing with some interesting science, tho.
Hairyloon

Essentially, the setup problems, monitoring and control is the same for a large and small set up, which makes it uneconomical below a certain size.
I expect that it is only a matter of time before the technology to do the monitoring and control improves and becomes cheaper.
How big are we talking about?

Meanwhile, back to plan B: put it in bottles and inject it downstream of the meter. Then it is only the customer who needs to be happy. Wink
Nick

500mw is small. Perhaps less than fifty tons a day input.

Figures are very rough but the orders of magnitude are right.
dpack

small scale for local use is possible but a bit madmax style from what i have read of it

for small scale gas production i recon wood distillation is a goer but storage etc have issues and really for a generator you might as well burn wood in a steam engine
Hairyloon

for small scale gas production i recon wood distillation is a goer but storage etc have issues...
Hence investigating the idea of injecting it into the mains.
Hairyloon

500MW is small. Perhaps less than fifty tons a day input.
If we assume 200g per person per day, that is 250,000 people...
Nick

Which is why they're built at the back of sewage works, or slurry pits or fed by lorry loads of waste pork scratchings. Hairyloon

Which is why they're built at the back of sewage works, or slurry pits or fed by lorry loads of waste pork scratchings.
Well obviously, but that is about the size of Plymouth. Not a big city as cities go, but I would hesitate to call it "small".

Definitely a problem that wants addressing.
Nick

Where are you getting a figure of 200g from? Certainly no one I know creates that little waste daily. Nick

Look at the link, every one outside the water industry is there and it tells you the size and output rate. Much below that currently can't be done viably. Hairyloon

Where are you getting a figure of 200g from? Certainly no one I know creates that little waste daily.
Encyclopedia Britannica. I didn't think it sounded enough either, but google didn't readily contradict it.
Nick

If they were only supplied by dry, pure poo you might be right. Hairyloon

Essentially, the setup problems, monitoring and control is the same for a large and small set up...
OK, it seems to me that most of this problem stems from the fact that methanogenesis is not an exact science: any time you make biogas, you get an uncertain mix of gasses.

So what if we inject hydrogen?
Electrolysis is an exact science: if you set out to produce hydrogen, then you can be reasonably certain that what you produce is fairly pure hydrogen so all you would need to do is meter the volume.
Nick

Yeah. They're doing that. And working on the storage and use of it. They even have a few hydrogen pumps you can fill your car up with free. Hairyloon

Yeah. They're doing that...
I would expect them to be doing that. I'm wondering about us doing that...
Nick

It's a relatively public resource. Drop them an email and they'll share their research and findings. Nice people with great facilities and they reckon there'll be more than 300 new plants in the next couple of years. Hairyloon

It's a relatively public resource.
Meaning these: http://www.biogas-info.co.uk/ ?
Hairyloon

for small scale gas production i recon wood distillation is a goer but storage etc have issues...
It depends what you are trying to run: how big a bucket of gas do you need to roast a dinner?
Is not hard to pump it into a bottle either.
Quote:
and really for a generator you might as well burn wood in a steam engine

Except that I have a selection of infernal combustion engines sat around wanting a job...
On that point I have a challenge to put on the table: how to run a two stroke engine on gas?
Nick

It's a relatively public resource.
Meaning these: http://www.biogas-info.co.uk/ ?

No, the centre of excellence at South Wales uni.
Hairyloon

It's a relatively public resource.
Meaning these: http://www.biogas-info.co.uk/ ?

No, the centre of excellence at South Wales uni.
Ah. I'd missed the link to them... Embarassed
dpack

[quote="
On that point I have a challenge to put on the table: how to run a two stroke engine on gas?[/quote]

i think the american chap that makes wood gas has some "scrapheap challenge"type instructions .iirc it looked like a pipe into the inlet on the engine side of the place the carb would normally be

how you get oil in to replace the oil in the fuel for a 2 stroke im not sure

i know quite a few vehicles were converted to low pressure town gas(big bag on roof)during ww2
Hairyloon

Quote:
On that point I have a challenge to put on the table: how to run a two stroke engine on gas?

how you get oil in to replace the oil in the fuel for a 2 stroke im not sure
Yes. That is the tricky bit.
Nick

The main centre of excellence is in treforest at the Uni, and they're having an open day on Thursday this week.
Pretty sure I can't do Thursday(s). But thank you for the offer.
Quote:
Probably not aimed at tiny individuals...

I'm not that small... who's been gossiping?!
Quote:
Free lunch, too.

I think I didn't want to know that, since I can't go. Sad

The lunch was great, btw. Wink
Hairyloon

The lunch was great, btw. Wink
I imagine it was. Sad
Can you do the next one on a not-Thursday, else give me more notice?
Nick

I was just an invited guest. But, they're running two more days. Ask for an invite. Smile Hairyloon

I was just an invited guest. But, they're running two more days. Ask for an invite. Smile
When and where?
Nick

Treforest is where. When, I don't know. Hairyloon

Treforest is where. When, I don't know.
What do they call it?
Sounds a bit cheeky asking for an invite to "that talk with all the gas and a free lunch". Wink
Nick

Something like the AD centre of excellence demonstration day.

You're after either Tim Patterson or Sandra esteves (sp?) I think. She's the centre director.

There's a contact us box on the site. I found they were very responsive via that.
Hairyloon

Was this it?
You know I'm shy: I like to make sure I've got the right place before I start asking silly questions. Wink
Nick

Was this it?
You know I'm shy: I like to make sure I've got the right place before I start asking silly questions. Wink

Yep, that's the place. It was their first attempt at a day. They have funding, and a remit to engage with industry, to become a centre of excellence, and to help the biogas industry as a whole. The demo days are a chance for them to bring industry in, show off their capabilities and staff, to sell their services, and to find out what the industry wants, expects and needs. They have two further days planned, but outside of those, I found them very approachable and helpful.

If you simply got in touch, explained you were interested to find out more with a view to potentially setting up a small digester, I'm sure they'd welcome you for a quick show round, but the open day would allow you to talk to other people who are doing it, and can save you reinventing the wheel, or answer some questions.
Hairyloon

I will do that, but is that a reason to stop discussing it here also?
We may think of other things to put to them.
Nick

No, not at all. Hairyloon

My current thinking is to pump it into a bottle and run the house off it instead of the mains.
Ideally I'd like to simply connect the bottle to the house (through an appropriate regulator) and have a changeover tap to go back to the mains when the bottle runs out, but I can foresee a raft of problems with that idea. None of them insurmountable, except perhaps the rules, but I've got a spare boiler doing nothing so I could set that up on bio-gas and leave those problems for another time...
Hairyloon

Of course, this project has gone on a back burner for the time being, except insofar as I have successfully produced a bucket of burnable gas...

The big hurdle at the moment is the daftness of the idea: it has the shape of a very daft idea, but I cannot see what is actually daft about it. Confused

Another minor thought occurred about it. If you install a biogas generator at the allotment and feed it with all the plant matter that you have no better use for, then that would mean that for you, there would be no such thing as weeds.
This would make it a lot easier to keep the plot "weed free" as required by the association rules. Wink
dpack

i like the logic of that Laughing Laughing Laughing

my version is "those are not weeds ,they are a green pharmacy and a few snacks"
Hairyloon

my version is "those are not weeds ,they are a green pharmacy and a few snacks"
What use in that context are grass, docks, and buttercups?!
dpack

couch grass roots make a very effective poultice against green wounds especially those caused by soil bacteria.other grasses have other properties.

docks are a perfect remedy for nettles and some insect stings and among the many types there are medicines for burns scalds ,ulcers and other skin problems ,some will stem bleeding including that from stomach/intestinal infections and ulcers.

buttercups are rather harsh but have been used to raise blisters much like spanish fly to treat gout etc(there are better things for such problems ) but they are very good to cause a ugly but fairly harmless ulcer to increase one's begging appeal.

Wink
Hairyloon

Good to know.
The only flaw in that plan though is that I'm growing them in commercial quantities and that is also against the rules.

It's a hypothetical point anyway: on my plot nobody gives a monkeys what anybody grows, and on herself's plot the association is a law unto itself.
Hairyloon

At about that time I set up a little experiment to prove to myself that gas production is as easy as I though it was (pretty much it is): a load of weeds in a barrel of water, an upturned bucket on top with a tap in the bottom of the bucket.
It sat for a few weeks doing not a lot, whereupon I had a sudden idea of where I might find some of the right bacteria... and a week or so later I was rewarded with a blue flame. Very Happy
It was a very low production rate (it is not a big barrel), indeed, I thought it may have stopped, so I did not worry too much about doing anything with it or leaving it going, but I came back yesterday after a couple of weeks away and found the bucket nearly climbing out of the barrel: presumably it has had a sudden big spurt of production.
Any guesses what has occurred?
Mistress Rose

The initial spurt might have been from the soft tissue, and now the more fibrous material is breaking down. Not too sure of this, but one possible explanation. Hairyloon

That was the theory I'd gone to.
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