| Archive for Downsizer For an ethical approach to consumption |
| bubble |
boletus pinophilus ?Is this Boletus pinophilus,at first I thought B. badius because its similar,a bit rare?
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| cab |
Extremely hard to say. Doesn't bruise with any colour change at all? | ||||
| bubble |
Sadly I've dried it cab ,comparing pic with Michael Jordans bible and M. Bon and R. Courtercouice B. Duehm ,its B. pinophilus [pinicola]Its just that I have'nt differentiated it before, I just lumped it in with the bays . | ||||
| PeteS |
Bubble,
I found a number of these in the summer. B. pinophilus: Pores - white/cream, becoming olive/brown with age. NEVER yellow and UNCHANGING when bruised. Stem - fine reddish brown dots arranged in a network which is whitish at apex. To me the stem looks like it could just fit B. pinophilus, but I can't be 100% from these pictures. B. pinophilus (like most things) is easier to ID when more mature. Do the pores bruise blueish green? If they don't then I'd say B. pinophilus. |
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| bubble |
thanks lads
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| Truffle |
lots of photos going round of pulled-mushrooms, just to point out to any beginners viewing these that it's fine if identification is needed, but for general collecting, please cut rather than pull.
Thank you! Truffle |
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| bubble |
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| Truffle |
Very strong links between damaging mycorrhiza and reduced yields- additionally, trampling during collection (over very long periods of time) is also strongly correlated with plummeting yields. Will dig out some papers as references. Most people think it's ok as they don't see such damage on a very local level- but it's well reported in the lit as really quite damaging. You don't collect like that right bubble (most of your photos look like they're cut)? | ||||
| Stewy |
I always cut my mushrooms and believe it to be best practice. If you look at this thread you will see that he mainly uproots them by the looks of it.
http://forum.downsizer.net/viewtopic.php?t=46915 |
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| nettie |
TBH I cut when I am certain of ID, quite apart from anything else it saves on gritty bits in the gills/pores, and lets you know immediately if you have a maggot problem  And it makes sense not to disturb the "roots", the same as you try not to disturb plant roots if you want good yields. Mind you there are some books that recommend pulling fungal fruitbodies whole, I reckon there is confusing advice out there.
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| Truffle |
Your absolutely right, it's the old 'science communication' issues. Harvesting like this has caused huge problems in Japan and China with their matsutake and its clear that its damaging for mycorrhizal mushrooms. I'm not sure if its the case with other species, for example I would assume that Lepista spp. are pretty tolerant of (and indeed, may even benefit from) such behavior. We're working on mycorrhiza every day and assess a large number of samples every year as well as attending/presenting at scientific conferences- and its clear that human behavior does have quite a strong impact. I know of some new commercial collecting areas for B.edulis, where people are harvesting fruiting bodies before they even break the surface. Tapping the litter with sticks to find them and excavating them whole- can't be sustainable in the long-term. There was an excellent study conducted a few years back that showed disturbance of the forest floor (and removal of leaf litter) caused a mass of fruiting the following year but after that, close to desertification (at least in terms of fungi)... Hopefully people reading this, many of whom have just stumbled on it through google, will remember to cut! 
Thanks all and I know pretty much all of us here cut/break,
Truffle |
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| bubble |
A lot of made up misinformed RUBBISH.What have squirrets[bayboletes]deer [ceps and others]goats etc beenDOING FOR THE LAST TENS OF THUSANDS OF YEARS ,THEY RIP MUSHROOM OUT and eat it.LIke i've said in some of my earlier posts use system, logic , field experience like the Ancient Greeks and Romans and LOOK at nature ,sometimes read books and arrive at a judgement!!!
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| Truffle |
- I suggest you go and read a few conference proceedings and get to your local university library to read a few journals. If we all discounted science as 'misinformed rubbish', I'm sure you wouldn't be here to type this - please provide evidence 'for' rather than 'misinformed rubbish' 
edit 1: matsutake case study: http://209.85.229.132/search?q=cache:JOrMgY-e-ikJ:www.matsiman.com/formalpubs/Effects%2520of%2520mushroom%2520harvest.pdf+matsutake+over+harvesting&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk&client=firefox-a edit 2: trampling reduces fungi numbers, but 'normal' harvesting doesn't, nb only a 10 yr study and lack of spores likely to impact on a longer time scale: http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&ct=res&cd=21&ved=0CAcQFjAAOBQ&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.wsl.ch%2Fpersonal_homepages%2Fegli%2Fegli_2006c&ei=eS8WS8azHs-l4QbqpJXjBg&usg=AFQjCNETlLWYLvS1Kv6tkvMx9_ccLMERBA&sig2=5Q2mX0R5GyywDH5kvYjwOQ edit 3: not open source, but worth reading through your local univeristy lib: a) Arnolds, E., 1991. Decline of ectomycorrhizal fungi in Europe. Agric. Ecosyst. Environ. 35, 209244. b b) Egli, S., Ayer, F., 1997. Est-il possible dĠame´ liorer la production de champignons comestibles en fore t? LĠexemple de la re´ serve mycologique de La Chane´ az en Suisse. Rev. For. Fr., Nume´ ro special, pp. 235243. 0 c) the above are both quite old, IWEMM conference proceedings provide a good insight into studies showing decline in yields with poor harvesting systems Its also worth pointing out that many areas where mycorrhizal mushrooms are now commercially harvested have only recently (0-15yr) been exploited to such a degree, and such exploration may not be sustainable in the long term (which we already know from much older case studies). Collecting on the scale on downsizer is not an issue though, so don't worry Pete/Stewy/Cab/Bingo/Me I just wanted to post some info for people and mainly advise against pulling- but my reply has got out of control and far too lengthy, apologies and I'll sign off now!
Thanks, Truffle www.PlantationSystems.com |
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| bubble |
Top of my head,if as a lay person [electrician] if I was to say that spores go up into the stratosphere go round and round the globe for AGES and hang around untill we kill all trees most of life as we know it WITH GM crops and those same spores can wait to re-colonise after millions of years o mosses evolving into trees etc., and that mushroom spores are virtually indestructible I wouldbeMORE LIKELY TO BE RIGHT THAN the majority of the theories that 'scientists'come up with.THE FACT about this subject is that its never really been seriously studied BACAUSE theres no money in it.Truffle tell me how long mycellium stays alive after a solitary tree has been chopped down[parhaps in embryo ]a birch or beech;does it wait perhaps 6 7 or 8 years for sapling or not???
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| bubble |
You don'nt need a scientist to tell you that repeated [for some period ie paintball games] trampling must be harmful.
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| Truffle |
There's no actual data/point/argument in the above response- more like an unstructured stream of consciousness and so it does not warrant a reply. Read the above papers as a starting point (there's hundreds published every year). Thanks and that's the end of my engagement. |
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| cab |
In my view certain species do just as well (even better) if picked regularly and the sites handled roughly; Lepista is a good example, Coprinus even better.
(quoted in whole because IMHO you'd have to travel a long way to find anyone more knowledgeable about mycorrhiza than Truffle; it seems rational to me that risking damage to the roots and ground mycelium of such fungi is quite needless, as you'll cut the mucky bit off the bottom anyway. For initial ID or for good instructional images things may be different, of course). |
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| cab |
Bubble, its obviously true (to me, at least) that those sites regularly ravaged by foragers picking for the restaurant trade don't continue to thrive; it has never been my observation that all the fungi disappear, but the species that live in association with tree roots die off and others (often less tasty!) appear.
Deer do pick and nibble on shrooms, as do squiggles, but not intensively. And it ain't like the odd sample picked whole for ID is damaging. But if you go through some sections of wood that you know used to be very productive but have been ravaged by large scale, commercial picking, its just heartbreaking. Regarding the survivability of mushroom spores, they're complete wusses. I mean, many bacterial spores will persist for thousands of years (there are contentious claims of spores surviving for millions of years in amber), but the death curves for fungal (specifically basidiomycete) spores when exposed to UV (like, for example, in sunlight) are shocking, they die far faster than you could believe. I did a wee bit of work (donkeys years ago) on oyster mushroom crossing, and part of that included some good old fashioned UV mutagenesis; getting that right to get sufficient chance of mutation without killing them turned out to be much harder than my previous experience with bacteria (which had been primarily Streptomyces and, if memory serves, Nocardia; and they're not even the hard boys of bacteriology). |
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| AnnaD |
I didn't know that about cutting instead of pulling. I'll cut them in future. And as Nettie says, it's a good way to find out if there's a maggot problem. | ||||
| kuma |
I picked dozens of these Bubble, exactly the same as showing in your picture and concluded that they were a variant of b badius as the pores did blue slightly. They were much firmer with a more bulbous stipe and the margin slightly wavy compared to a "regular" b badius.
Obviously I cut them. |
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| PeteS |
I am a bit confused here. Isn't the issue pulling versus cutting?
In.......... matsutake case study: http://209.85.229.132/search?q=cache:JOrMgY-e-ikJ:www.matsiman.com/formalpubs/Effects%2520of%2520mushroom%2520harvest.pdf+matsutake+over+harvesting&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk&client=firefox-a "(2) BMP (best management practice): harvest with minimal disturbance to the O2 litter layer and mushrooms removed by gentle rocking and pulling". Isn't this basically pulling? In.......... trampling reduces fungi numbers, but 'normal' harvesting doesn't, nb only a 10 yr study and lack of spores likely to impact on a longer time scale: http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&ct=res&cd=21&ved=0CAcQFjAAOBQ&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.wsl.ch%2Fpersonal_homepages%2Fegli%2Fegli_2006c&ei=eS8WS8azHs-l4QbqpJXjBg&usg=AFQjCNETlLWYLvS1Kv6tkvMx9_ccLMERBA&sig2=5Q2mX0R5GyywDH5kvYjwOQ "The results reveal that, contrary to expectations, long-term and systematic harvesting reduces neither the future yields of fruit bodies nor the species richness of wild forest fungi, irrespective of whether the harvesting technique was picking or cutting". Doesn't this say that there is no difference between picking (pulling) or cutting? And In........ Managing forest ecosystems to conserve fungus diversity and sustain wild mushroom harvests - Pilz, D.; Molina, R., eds.: http://www.treesearch.fs.fed.us/pubs/5634 "Preliminary data indicate no difference between cut-harvest and pull-harvest. Our data agree with that of Egli and others (1990), who observed no difference between cutting or pulling of 15 other edible species. The fact that our study (comparing treated and control plots over time) was the first of its kind, however, dictated that we attempt to provide as much baseline data as possible for future studies" This clearly states no difference between pulling or cutting. Now, I tend to cut rather than pull but there are cases when I prefer to pull. A good example of this is winter chanterelle. Quite often these are so close together that by trying to cut a larger mushroom you cannot help cutting all the little small mushrooms around it. I would rather leave these small ones to grow and release their spores - they are no use to me as they are too small to pick - and I can come back later when, hopefully, they have grow to a decent size. |
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| Truffle |
Hi Pete- yep, the study is posted for balance and also its important to bear in mind that it's only a 10yr study, which may in part be why in contradicts other studies. I think its best to have a balanced insight and the cautions form scientist are targeted at mycorrhizal fungi edit to add, that a lot of valued mycorrhiza fungi can take up-to 10 years from growing on a root system to producing a fruiting body, so we're looking at a slow-developing system (although some can take a staggeringly little 3 months!) |
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| PeteS |
In my view the biggest danger to all fungi is loss of habitat. I have a recent sad example of this and it was done in the New Forest by the Forestry Commission!
I knew of a great spot for winter chanterelle. In fact Bingo showed it to me last year. There were loads of other species in there too (edible and inedible) but about a month ago they decided to cut all the trees down. This was done in the name of conservation but I can't see why and it just looks like they are making money out of the timber. I do know why they sometimes do this kind of thing - there are some parts of the Forest where pine plantations have tress so close together that hardly anything else grows, however, this place was not like that. The site now looks like a nuclear bomb has gone off. Huge machines have cut tracks over 1ft deep into the wet ground. Trees have been hacked down and pulled across the forest floor. Large areas are just mud pits and very difficult to walk over. I took a look at the place the other day - not one fungus in sight, all gone. Fortunately I know other good spots for winter chanterelle but how long will it take for the fungi to grow back? Will it happen at all? My guess is at least 10 years. |
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| bubble |
its a shame that these so called scientists, Peters did'nt use their energy and muscle to lobby strongly about what you 've just said instead of chucking second hand scientific orthodoxy thinking its going to persuade us to do the right thing so that the forests' they' go to are filled to the brim with mushies;what a load of HOGWASH.Allow me to just concur with you and say that the biggesr danger to fungi is chopping down trees ,spray -drift spray-gm crops,paintball games and some scientists.What a ridiculus thing they find a rare mushroom they put a fence and a notice and think they are going to conserve it whilst their cousin the farmer or For estry people rip and burn a nice bit of habitat somewhere else.Form a body [RIHA] reinstatement of indigenous habitat areas and we'' ll all join it. Lobby and use some LOTTERY money. | ||||
| Truffle |
Perhaps you should also lobby on other environmental concerns, since by your thinking, we can destroy all our woodland and they will regenerate from moss and all the mushrooms in the air that can live for millions of years. I'm sure everyone would bow down to this electricians knowledge, and your views on environmental factors, climate change and GM will save the world
What do scientists know? maybe its time electricians shaped policy and pushed the boundaries of knowledge. You should probably also branch out into pharmaceuticals and a cure for malaria. I'm sure many scientists would equally thrive in installing 3-phase electric systems with 'innate' knowledge. 
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| bubble |
Well electricians succes fully operated computers and got he modern printers going about 25 yrs ago when printers went on strike, they did it with very minimal training ,you cant be a sparkie if you are not clever,but sometimes if you have poor immigrant parents and no history in the family of going to uni . thats how it is it does'nt mean that you are thick and have no opinions.We now have PHD's and chartered enginners in the family .
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| cab |
Steady on Bubble, Truffle is a good bloke, and the science behind what he does (and says) is sound (although I still say theres more than a little 'dark art' to mycology, especially mycorrhiza...). I've definitely seen areas with good stocks of mycorrhizal fungi damaged by careless overpulling of mushrooms. That there are other risks too (deforestation, pollution, etc. - and I agree, the biggest problem can be loss of habitat) doesn't mean that as foragers we shouldn't also do as best we can to minimise our impact. Personally, I favour either cutting at the base or pinching to break at the bottom of the stem, depending on what the sample is. I'm not especially careful with, say, blewits, but other than the occasional sample for ID or for a good image, I don't pick boletes and similar shrooms growing with trees that way. |
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| bubble |
Steady on now Cab ,I know Truffle is a good bloke ;I did'nt say he is'nt.Right I've spoken to higher authority A. Outen and the Mycological society and the jury oncut or not cut is still out.Alan thinks that its probably better to pull 'cause you can never be sure your knife is'nt contaminated with something that may affect the mycellium.This was and is the advise I take ,finito.
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| doctoral |
I totally agree with cutting as it does not affect the mycelium - listen to those who know!!! 
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