| Archive for Downsizer For an ethical approach to consumption |
| Behemoth |
Can domestic wnd turbines make money?Household windmills are becoming quite the fashion, apparently, but can they make money?Domestic wind turbines have been described as "the new handbags" - the latest luxury items craved by those who want to be first to try new technology. But this description overlooks their green credentials, because any electricity powered by the elements is reducing CO2 emissions, which are blamed for global warming. And there are also the financial motivations. A household with a windmill can save money on bills and sell excess electricity back to the national grid. So could wind turbines become a nice little earner? http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/4374748.stm |
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| dougal |
Note that the article says grants are set to end in February. | ||||
| Mr Solar |
Micro wind turbines and other similer technologiesMy 400 watt 3 phase micro turbine is installed at the higest point of my roof to gain the maximum wind energy along with 6 x 55 watt PV panels and 44 vacuum tubes for my hot water and support to my space heating with a loft air source heat pump as the back up.My 24 volt PV and wind system reduces my electricty by around 1,800 kW a year. I see no point in grid connection, I have a battery bank system and when you all get power cuts, all my lights will still be on, my solar pump and gas boiler pump working and a socket for a TV. It seems everybody is being sold the concept that a grid tie system is the way foward with the oppotunity to gain 0.2p a kwh (1,000 watts or 10 x 100 watt light bulbs) from the utility? What everybody in this country needs to start thinking about is independance from these corparate bodies who are loaning you power, energy and water for the rest of your lives. My gas bill for this 3 bed home with 3 people and 2 dogs for the last 3 months of hot water was £4.50p, what was yours? Your first investment into Micro renewable energy/power and water technologies after you have changed all your bulbs to low energy, all levels of home insulation have been done, is in solar water heating, a world proven technology growing in demand at 30% a year and to cheap to meter, thats why this government does not back it. Solar water heating unlike PV and wind are mainly grid connected to be able to meter the power to your home, solar hot water is direct off your roof, bypassing the meter, so cannot ne metered. If 1 million homes were installed with one of todays solar water heating systems which uses your existing hot water tanks (self install around 1,200 pounds) each one would reduce Co2 by 1/2 ton a year if gas was used to heat the water and 1 ton if by electricty. One million homes would diplace 168 million in gas sales a year, bad news for British Gas and the Government who take the tax. Every time energy and materials rise in cost, so will the cost of a solar hot water system. Every day households put off the investment becouse of perveived pay back, the more each year you pay the utility. Look at playing with wind after you have masted some form of independance from the suns energy and the rain which falls on your roof for 70% of your water needs. Mr Solar |
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| Milo |
Did you have any probs with planning? Neighbours?
We have a combi-boiler therefore no hot water tank. How much of a (financial) disadvantage is this? What are your thoughts on this British Gas venture?: http://www.britishgasnews.co.uk/index.asp?PageID=74&imageid=161&imagefilter=image_all |
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| homeinsulationservices |
Wind turbines of a good size can make money after an initial period (depending on energy consumed).
Example. 1x 5kw wind turbine installed for £21,000 Grant funding for turbine £5000 A 5kw wind turbine will produce around £1000 of energy per year (based on today’s prices). Because you are exporting back on to the grid you can sell the ROCS you gain back to an energy supplier (in some cases £150 pre rock). So it shows that after a period of time your new wind turbine will bring you an income. Renewable energy solutions i.e. Solar P/V or Thermal, Wind Turbines etc are an investment for the future and not a quick fix option. The benefit of connecting to the grid is you can export you energy back and "gain money from it". What happens when you on your holidays etc, the wind is still blowing and the turbine spinning? I do however agree that with a small wind turbine (under 1kw) there really is not much point in going grid connected, as you just would not produce enough energy from it. |
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| tahir |
Welcome on board, is 5kwH about the optimum size to be grid connected? And if so which models are there in that range? | ||||
| dougal |
Has anyone got any *accurate* and *up-to-date* numbers?
I thought that - an export meter (for selling any electricity at all) costs about £500 initially and then £100 or so each year. - the selling price for your electricity is very much less than the price you pay when buying electricity (things would be very different in an "export equivalence" or "net metering" regime...) And hence, while it might be economically viable to generate electricity for your own consumption, far from it being a "nice little earner", my belief is that it remains positively charitable to install excess capacity - until you got up to distinctly non-domestic power levels. Does anyone have real meter cost and electricity sale value info? |
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| homeinsulationservices |
that is basic upto date info. with everything costed in ie turbine, mounting pole, fully installed with all inverters and meters. There are no ongoing costs, once its in its in so to speak and it does it all its self. We have installed a few of these 5kw turbines ( about 10 last year) and also the 15kw ones. the price you sell at is around 1/3 of the price you pay. 5kw turbine do around £1000 on todays prices |
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| dougal |
HIS - do you happen to know who they are selling to?
Would it be Good Energy by any chance? |
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| homeinsulationservices |
good nrg or n power are two good ones, however we dont get involved in that side of things. |
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| dougal |
Thanks for that.
As far as the *economics* of power *sales* is concerned, the commercial arrangement is absolutely central. Good Energy seem to be currently "creatively" mis-interpreting the ROC scheme, which is why I asked. There is a backbencher's Private Member's Bill making its way through Parliament at present. (Currently at Committee Stage, 3rd reading and the Lords still to be navigated.) The DTI said this, in Novemer 05, about the new proposals
http://www.dti.gov.uk/renewables/renew_5.1.2.2.htm see the second to last paragraph.    
Since *paying* to use your own electricity is unattractive, I wonder whether folks are assuming that the new law is actually already in place? It certainly seems that Good are amalgamating microgenerators output, and not actually metering (or paying for) the exported electricity - just distributing the ROC bounty, although the generator gets to consume that same (his own generated) power for free. Which appears to me to be a creative mis-interpretation of what the DTI think the position is. In the Windpower article on this site
And that seems to be what the DTI think as well. You use what you like of your own, for free. Any surplus is exported and sold at a price that depends on when it was generated (needing an expensive meter) and ROCs can be claimed on the *exported* surplus renewable energy sold to the Electricity Co for *resale*. Good work it differently. You just meter the total that you generate (simple and cheap), and Good claim the ROCs on that gross amount. They then pay you nearly as much as the ROCs are worth. (4.5p per unit against a ROC value of around 5p/unit.) And they don't give a monkey's what happens to the energy you've generated - which I think would be a surprise to the DTI. Of course they'll charge you for whatever you need to draw from the grid, at maybe 10p/unit. What I'd like to know is whether the whole industry is doing it the way Good are, and therefore whether the new law (if it gets through) is just legitemising the current position? Or would it be foolish to plan for the future on the basis of Good's method? |
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| tahir |
This is from Iskra Wind | ||||
| dougal |
That looks like a very useful starting point. Suspect its slightly behind the times though 'cos from Good's website they are offering 4.5p/unit (not the 3 quoted) for the ROCs and allowing you to use your own stuff for free.
When you ring around  you'll need to clarify exactly the position on the use of your own and metering (and its cost).
I think the expensive meter is needed when you are using your own for free (reducing the import) and being paid for the exported *surplus* (unlike Good who pay on the quantity generated). |
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| Milo |
What does ROC mean? | ||||
| dougal |
It stands for Renewable Obligation Certificate. A certificate is issued for 1,000 kWh of renewable electricity, I think sold, not just generated for self use... the certificate is tradeable - for money. Have a look at Jerome's article. http://www.downsizer.net/Projects/A_sustainable_world/Wind_power_to_the_people!/ If need be, Google will tell you more... I'd still like to know if it does work completely differently in reality from the way the Government intended it to (and probably think it does) work. 
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