[Mary-Jane]

Yes they are a bad thing. It doesn't matter how many times they get used and re-used, they're still going to end up in landfill. It's utterly futile to charge for them - in Ireland there was a drop in use for a while when the charge came into place, but now it's almost back to the same level of use as before.

The only way forward is a total ban, starting with the supermarkets. We have family in France where the supermarkets have been banned from giving out plastic bags. Apparently it took about a week for the entire nation to adjust and now it's simply taken for granted that you bring your own bags or use cardboard boxes. I fail to see why we cannot do that here...or perhaps the supermarkets have now become so powerful that they only have to whine a bit to Gordon Brown and he rolls over and implements this ridiculous charge instead of saying "Tough titties" and imposing an outright ban...

[Mary-Jane]

Sadly I doubt it WW. A few pence on a shopping bill isn't going to make any difference to the sort of people who can't even begin to think about the environment having a problem with plastic bags.

[Mary-Jane]

No matter. Everyone will just have to bring their own bags. What's the problem?

I was quite heartened to see the number of people who brought their own bags to our local supermarket when I went shopping this morning. Whilst I was at the checkout I would say that plastic bag users were definitely in the minority at that moment in time...

[Mary-Jane]

Yes, but not everywhere.

[cinders]

Yes, but not everywhere.

[Barefoot Andrew]

A most promising observation, but sadly not matched by the folk around here. I still see people using a Sainsbury's carrier bag for their pint of milk, or even more perplexing, their newspaper.

I usually wheel trolley to car and load up the cardboard boxes I keep permanently therein. Today I popped in for a few items which didn't warrant a trolley. The young chap at the checkout seem to be slightly bemused that I declined a bag and just carried everything in hand/under arms. I had intended to take in my 'bag for life' but forgot and left it in the car
A.

[Treacodactyl]

Yep they are and I think most, if not all, supermarket carrier bags are bio-degradable. Tesco is aiming to reduce the number of carrier bags it issues by 25% this year as well.

Bio-degradable bags still release methane in landfill though IIRC. I'm not sure if bio-degradable bags have the same impact on wildlife and non-bio-degradables, anyone know?

We've been using our own bags for quite a while now and only use a black bin liner, made from recycled plastic, for the outside bin (the council don't want you to use the wheelie bins) which lasts about two weeks.

[wellington womble]

Those are the kind of things I would envisage reducing with a charge - himself often pops in for a bottle or two on his way home, and invariably comes back with a carrier bag. I think if they charged he would think whether he actually needed one, and wouldn't just take one without thinking. I usually base my non-downsizer pschology on him!

[Jonnyboy]

That's only one element of the varied damage they do. For example, turtles think they are jellyfish and eat them, then die.

But I do agree that if someone is going to pillory them based on carbon footprint then it should be justified.

[Northern_Lad]

That's only one element of the varied damage they do. For example, turtles think they are jellyfish and eat them, then die.

But I do agree that if someone is going to pillory them based on carbon footprint then it should be justified.

[cab]

Thats why I said I'm all in favour of getting shot of carrier bags, they are a needless waste, and like any needless waste the knock on effect is going to involve litter and the harm it can cause. So don't get me wrong, there is no bad in reducing carrier bag use.

But thats only part of the story; without a simple assessment of how big an impact each carrier bag makes, we can't really see the whole problem or work out the best solution unless we put numbers on it. For example, you'll hear the producers of carrier bags say that paper bags have a big impact because they cost more energy to make and ship.

So it seems to me that a good starting point, a good bit of data to have, would be a carbon cost. It isn't everything, but its clearly important.

[Mary-Jane]

I once stood behind a woman in the queue in Boots and she bought a lipstick. Just one lipstick. Nothing else. She had a handbag the size of Wales...and asked for a bag.

I leant over and with a big, friendly smile said "Why don't you just pop it in your handbag instead of using a plastic bag?" To which she replied "F*ck off and mind your own business."

[Mary-Jane]

Actually, that's probably where I went wrong.

[Barefoot Andrew]

Actually, that's probably where I went wrong.

[Jonnyboy]

Be honest, you want it wrapped in brown paper, tied with string and then delivered to your door by a ruddy faced grocers assistant who tips his cap in thanks when you toss him a florin.

[Mary-Jane]

I didn't. She was upper-middle-aged, the size of a bus and looked as if she could throw a right hook that could do serious damage. I'm argumentative...but I'm not bl**dy stupid. So I just stood there with what Gervase calls *That Look* on my face.

In any event, she snatched her plastic bag and marched out of the shop leaving the cashier open mouthed. We looked at each other and immediately started giggling.

[Mary-Jane]

He does, he does...

[Mary-Jane]

[Barefoot Andrew]

A.

[Gervase]

You make that sound like it's a bad thing...

[lottie]

I absolutely love the skill with which the supermarket staff where my daughter lives skillfully pack the big brown paper bags---wish we had that kind of service here ---if you try to put anything in they are not amused---you're doing them out of a job.

[Northern_Lad]

He does, he does...

[Jonnyboy]

Bloody hell, I'd only tip a shilling. Florins had real gold in 'em.

[lottie]

I didn't. She was upper-middle-aged, the size of a bus and looked as if she could throw a right hook that could do serious damage. I'm argumentative...but I'm not bl**dy stupid. So I just stood there with what Gervase calls *That Look* on my face.

In any event, she snatched her plastic bag and marched out of the shop leaving the cashier open mouthed. We looked at each other and immediately started giggling.

[cab]

Yep. I agree with everything you said there.

Really, I'm opposed to waste, so re-using bags is a good idea. But the current venom against carrier bags seems to be rather at the expense other equally or more important environmental problems.

I'm all for reducing carrier bag use, but I'd be less cynical about it if we could also see some of the other charges that all supermarket users face targetted specifically at those causing environmental damage. That means that I'll believe that the supermarkets making these initiatives are 'greening up' and that the newspapers pushing them to do so really care when they also start charging for parking at supermarkets/malls.

[cab]

I wouldn't go as far as that; I don't see any link between carrier bags and, say, Heathrow. But there is synergy between environmental issues that revolve around the same retailers; Marks and Spencers are claiming to be green for bringing in this carrier bag charge, Tescos give you a 'clubcard point' for each bag you re-use... Well fine, but when are they going to stop messing about and start really addressing issues they cause by basing themselves in stupid locations with mega-carparks, issues such as traffic congestion, particular pollution and carbon dioxide emissions? If I walk or cycle there I'm not only paying for other peoples right to park there, I'm also having to deal directly with the environmental harm.

Until they start doing something serious about these other issues, I'm not going to fall for this greenwashing.

[cab]

Low hangnig fruit. But as someone who has picked fruit from more trees than I could count, I'd say that there is nothing WRONG with going for the low hanging fruit, so long as you don't pretend that such is the be all and end all. All of this focus on carrier bags... Its a good target, its worth it, but lets not take our eye off the other big issues in the process.

[Nick]

Catch up, Terminal Five is about to open!

[Andy B]

That's only one element of the varied damage they do. For example, turtles think they are jellyfish and eat them, then die.

But I do agree that if someone is going to pillory them based on carbon footprint then it should be justified.

[cab]

One shop I went into a while back insisted that I had to have the shoes I was buying in their carrier bag. I said no, I don't want a bag. So of course they said I had to, it was a security thing, and I said fine, I'll shop somewhere else.

Dreadful to think how bad shoplifting must be for a specific retailer if they tell the staff are led to believe that losing a sale is better than allowing a customer to leave without a carrier bag.

[JB]

Though to be fair sometimes that's the staff and not the store. One store I went to (can't remember where or what I was buying) the till assistant insisted that I had to have a carrier bag - "I don't need one", "but we always put these in a bag", "but I already have a bag", " but we always put the stuff in a bag" and so on. Eventually I let her put it in a bag at which point I immediately took it out again and handed the bag back to her. She was quite happy with that but just not the idea she couldn't give me a bag in the first place