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Ixy

Cats!

WHY is it OK for cat owners to let their animals roam wherever they want? Mad Mad Mad Mad Mad we can't do it with ANY of our stock - we'd be strung up for letting our cattle wander the countryside eating people's crops. My dog would be SHOT for going next door and attacking a single sheep. But it's perfectly OK for somebody's cat to come here and savage a broody.

I don't know that she'll survive. She's bloody, soaked to the skin and caked in mud. The cat that I've chased off a few times and was hanging around this morning is the only likely culprit as the eggs themselves were untouched (but well dead Crying or Very sad ) and a stoat/fox would have at least had a go at them, and most likely, actually acheived killing a game hen.

I really don't give a monkeys if they are pensioner's only companions or what - when people own an animal, they should take responsibility for it Mad
tahir

I'm with you there.
Shan

I'm sorry to hear about your chicken but I must admit I am surprised that it was a cat. We live next door to the game keeper who rears pheasants and he has 11 cats. The reason he keeps them is because they don't go after the pheasants or his chickens but they keep down the rats from the feed. We have chickens that free range and whilst his cats do come here, the chickens quite easily see them off. I'd keep an eye open if I were you for other predators, just in case it was not the cat.
Rob R

Having watched a [the] cat 'stalking' birds behind mesh from the window we know it is capable. Was trying to think of what would attack the broody and not take the eggs, when the cat sauntered into view...
Gervase

A powerful water pistol - like a 'supersoaker' - works well. Most cats learn fast, and a couple of soakings should be enough. Failing that, an empty detergnet bottle full of water can be handy.
dpack

live catch trap ?
they dont see very well in the dark ?
fat on offerings and uninterested ?
they do help with the rodent thing but have a downside
a talking to by rufty ?i will have a word with him on monday
Fee

Sorry Sad

People aren't going to stop having cats, though, I suggest a water pistol at hand for whenever you see them near.
Ixy

I was thinking more, y'knw - a blunderbuss. Mad
Fee

Laughing Well, that'll teach em Wink
Ixy

Problem solved - I'm getting an eagle... Cool
dpack

the chookmobile girls are quite handy Twisted Evil
bodger

I've had a cat take eight out of a brood of thirteen 6 to 8 week old chicks over the last few weeks.
ros

Ixy wrote:
Problem solved - I'm getting an eagle... Cool


or an eagle owl Very Happy

I don't have chooks for the local cats to attack - but I hate the mess they make of my veg patch - if a dog messes on the pavement the owner can be fined - but there is nothing to stop all the neighbourhood moggies doing it in my garden Mad Mad Mad Mad

(except the kids with water soakers and hopefully new puppy will have a say in the matter soon )
Ixy

I had a sandpit when I was little...you can imagine what they did to that...
cab

Re: Cats!

Ixy wrote:
WHY is it OK for cat owners to let their animals roam wherever they want? Mad Mad Mad Mad Mad


It isn't. But, strangely, everyone else is somehow expected just to put up with it on the grounds that cats are cute. Go figure Rolling Eyes

Theres one comes into our garden and always scrats in the same place; I've tried chilli, garlic, water pistols, hurling bucket loads of water on it... nothing much seems to work.
yummersetter

Cork?
cab

yummersetter wrote:
Cork?


Cork?
ros

a cork Shocked

tempting
vegplot

I feel a Bubble moment coming on.
yummersetter

Oh, isn't scrat the euphemism I thought it was?
Chez

They mark the edge of their territory with faeces, apparently; so if you don't have a cat yourself, your garden (especially in populated areas) tends to be disputed territory. I have heard of a couple of people who have made the offending animal welcome and therefore it 'owned' their garden as well and the problem was solved.

No help to Ixy and Bodger, though. Commiserations Sad.
mochyn

Our 2 cats are excellent ratters (and squirrelers) but are scared of the hens. However I wouldn't trust them near very young birds. I'm not surprised that some cats will go for mature birds though and I'd agree with the water pistol idea! Indeed if one of my cats attacked a neighbour's birds he'd be within his rights (as far as I'm concerned) if he shot her.

Holly leaves are a good deterrent on soil to stop pooing though.
cab

I just don't get why with any other livestock its your fault if your animal causes harm, but with a cat the emphasis is always on the victim. Its backwards; cat comes and defecates in my garden, it seems only fair that I should go and defecate in the owners living room.
Gervase

Agreed. I think you should try it. And video the reaction.

There is an alternative...
mochyn

cab wrote:
...cat comes and defecates in my garden, it seems only fair that I should go and defecate in the owners living room.


Sounds fair enough to me! Laughing
vegplot

cab wrote:
I just don't get why with any other livestock its your fault if your animal causes harm, but with a cat the emphasis is always on the victim. Its backwards; cat comes and defecates in my garden, it seems only fair that I should go and defecate in the owners living room.


Damned difficult keeping a cat from prowling. At least they attempt to bury their poo unlike dogs.
cab

vegplot wrote:

Damned difficult keeping a cat from prowling. At least they attempt to bury their poo unlike dogs.


Then don't have a cat. If my my pet went out and caused damage elsewhere (digging in my asparagus bed and defecating about the place is causing damage) then I'd not keep that pet.
RichardW

Not much cat love in this thread.


We have 5. The hens pinch the mice from the cats give half a chance. Our cats even used to climb in with the day olds & never harm any.

I would have thought most hens would soon see a cat off. But then broody hens are a bit dopey.

Be very hard to keep a cat in.
vegplot

cab wrote:
Then don't have a cat. If my my pet went out and caused damage elsewhere (digging in my asparagus bed and defecating about the place is causing damage) then I'd not keep that pet.


Well you will have dug garden, heaven for cats.
gz

ros wrote:
Ixy wrote:
Problem solved - I'm getting an eagle... Cool


or an eagle owl Very Happy )


That might not be a good idea- they go for chooks Sad

http://squashblossomfarm.blogspot.com/2009/09/owly.html
Ixy

RichardW wrote:

I would have thought most hens would soon see a cat off. But then broody hens are a bit dopey.

Be very hard to keep a cat in.


It's not dopey, it's protective, doing her job - I think she gave it a good fight, her eyes are swollen shut now Sad

If it's so hard to keep them in, don't have one. They should be on leads or have aviaries or something. Aside from damage to livestock, there's also health worries with kids in sandpits and damage to native, wild birds.
cab

Ixy wrote:

If it's so hard to keep them in, don't have one.


I like cats. They're beautiful animals, they're great fun and I get on with them. But I haven't got one because to keep a predator like that as a pet, keep it fed and in full health, and to let it wander around killing wild animals for a hobby and defecating all over the neighbourhood can in no way be considered ethical. Nor can keeping a cat indoors all the time be in any way fair.

I don't get how anyone could claim to be an ethical cat owner.

Of course, many people who have cats don't claim to be ethical...
RichardW

Ixy wrote:
RichardW wrote:

I would have thought most hens would soon see a cat off. But then broody hens are a bit dopey.

Be very hard to keep a cat in.


It's not dopey, it's protective, doing her job - I think she gave it a good fight, her eyes are swollen shut now Sad



I think you missed my point.

dopey = sleepy, not on top form etc
not stupid or silly.

A broody is not normally as active or awake as a non broody. Also poss low in energy as they tend to eat very little.


So you want to keep your livestock as naturally & free ranging as possible but want cat owners to keep them in a very un natural state? Cat roam its what they do. It natural. The problem as usual is that people live to close to each other so the cat density is high.
cab

RichardW wrote:

So you want to keep your livestock as naturally & free ranging as possible but want cat owners to keep them in a very un natural state? Cat roam its what they do. It natural. The problem as usual is that people live to close to each other so the cat density is high.


So if you can't keep a pet without it causing damage to others property, livestock or health then don't keep that pet. Got a cat? Is damage that cat does your responsibility? If not, why not?
Rob R

Ixy wrote:
Aside from damage to livestock, there's also health worries with kids in sandpits and damage to native, wild birds.


And spreading disease such as Toxoplasmosis to both pregnant sheep & humans by deficating in the feed. Sad
RichardW

I think this might put the "cat" among the pigeons.


Dont over feed your cat, let it roam & hunt more of its own food. Either way it will still hunt as its instincts force it too. But if its hungry it will eat what it catches.

Its rare that one of ours catches some thing & does not eat it. The odd one that does get left is normally due to us shouting at it to take it out side to eat it. Mostly they will but sometimes not. Ferrets dont seem to mind.
RichardW

We dont have anything close enough to worry about "damage".

In fact our neighbours (farmers) at the last house liked the cats around as they helped keep the rodents down.

Oh & yes owners should be responsible as long as it can be proved its their animal not just that they have a cat & its cat damage.
Rob R

RichardW wrote:
So you want to keep your livestock as naturally & free ranging as possible but want cat owners to keep them in a very un natural state? Cat roam its what they do. It natural. The problem as usual is that people live to close to each other so the cat density is high.


Cattle and sheep and pigs all roam greater distances in nature than on even the most free ranging farms but we're not allowed that excuse if they break into the neighbour's garden. We had some kittens on the farm the other week too, one of which bit Ixy when she picked it up out of the straw. What if the cat doesn't have an owner? Very few seem to be identified.
RichardW

Sounds like you have some "wild" ones setting up local to you.

Cats do seem very adept at slipping collars. We spent a few years buying new ones for ours. In the end we gave up. In winter you could see the collars hanging in the bushes where the cats had used the branches to pull them off.

But you would not keep them locked in the barn all year. I would assume that cats would have been roaming the same distances as the cattle, sheep & pigs when they were all wild. After all the (big) cats would have been eating them. But of course evolution & domestication changed all that.
Rob R

RichardW wrote:
But you would not keep them locked in the barn all year.


That's right, but I'd do my best to keep them on my land on a daily basis.

My parents had a similar problem in years gone by with peacocks coming into the garden to eat the veg. Sad
Ixy

RichardW wrote:
Ixy wrote:
RichardW wrote:

I would have thought most hens would soon see a cat off. But then broody hens are a bit dopey.

Be very hard to keep a cat in.


It's not dopey, it's protective, doing her job - I think she gave it a good fight, her eyes are swollen shut now Sad






So you want to keep your livestock as naturally & free ranging as possible but want cat owners to keep them in a very un natural state? Cat roam its what they do. It natural. The problem as usual is that people live to close to each other so the cat density is high.


I keep animals free range on my own land. I expect cat owners to do so too. The second my livestock venture off my land, I get an earful or worse and have to be very apologetic.

As for living too close together - we must have maybe 10 neighbours within a three mile radius. Laughing
bring me sunshine

Cats are laws unto themselves and have never been fully domesticated, despite what the purring heap of fur on my pillow would have me believe.
RichardW

Ixy wrote:

I keep animals free range on my own land. I expect cat owners to do so too.
As for living too close together - we must have maybe 10 neighbours within a three mile radius. Laughing


Bit unreasonable to expect them to put up what would basically be a cage (any thing less & they will be out) round the garden.

As your neighbours are that far away I would guess you have wild cats.
How far do cats roam? I have seen some of ours about a mile away.

Oh & just so you know.

You dont own the cat it owns you.
Rob R

RichardW wrote:

Oh & just so you know.

You dont own the cat it owns you.


Oh I know, I know too well Sad
Ixy

RichardW wrote:
Ixy wrote:

I keep animals free range on my own land. I expect cat owners to do so too.
As for living too close together - we must have maybe 10 neighbours within a three mile radius. Laughing


Bit unreasonable to expect them to put up what would basically be a cage (any thing less & they will be out) round the garden.



If you only had the room for a little cage you don't have enough room to keep a cat. I wouldn't keep a cow in my living room, if that was all I had available, I would have to accept I couldn't have cows.
RichardW

Who said a little cage?

I mean cage the garden.

A fence wont work they climb Rolling Eyes
toggle

RichardW wrote:
I think this might put the "cat" among the pigeons.


Dont over feed your cat, let it roam & hunt more of its own food. Either way it will still hunt as its instincts force it too. But if its hungry it will eat what it catches.


one of mine eats what it catches by choice.

the other is too dopey to catch anything
Ixy

Well if the garden wasn't big enough for a cat to live in in your opinion - you don't have the room for a cat, just like I wouldn't have the room for a cow if I didn't have a field. It'd be up to you to secure the garden - that means a roof, and if that's financially prohibitive, again you can't have a cat. Just like you couldn't have an expensive exotic parrot unless you could roof the aviary. Again - why are cats exempt to all the rules governing pet/livestock ownership?
toggle

i think the law exempts them.
RichardW

I surrender.

All cats should be eradicated from this planet forthwith because one hen was attacked by something unknown (but a cat was seen in the area so it must have done it).
Ixy

RichardW wrote:
I surrender.

All cats should be eradicated from this planet forthwith because one hen was attacked by something unknown (but a cat was seen in the area so it must have done it).


Taking the hen out of it they should still be brought under control for the damage done to wildlife not just in this country but globally - look at the decimation in new zealand and australia, and the disgusting mess they make on other people's property.
toggle

they are an issue in countries where there aren't native wildcats. the wildlife hasn't evolved to cope. We have native wildcats, our wildlife does, ffor the most part, cope as a species with cat precation. Comparing us with the situation in NZ is apples and oranges.

I believe the RSPB does not believe cats are responsible for bird population declines in this country.

and a lot of things crap on my property. at least the cats don't fly past and crap on my kids
Rob R

RichardW wrote:
I surrender.

All cats should be eradicated from this planet forthwith because one hen was attacked by something unknown (but a cat was seen in the area so it must have done it).


Not at all, read the rest of the posts, not just the first one. One hen and a clutch of eggs that were almost ready for hatching- neither the suffering nor the financial significance of that should be scoffed at.

I have also seen cats eating my dinner when the back door was left open, sit there stalking the chicks inside their pen- make no mistake, if the wire wasn't there it would be eating them. Deficating in the hay and straw...

If a dog were to attack livestock we could legally shoot it, buts cats get away with murder. It isn't unreasonable to question that & ask why. If they are feral cats, I assume they would be classed as vermin? [/i]
toggle

if they are feral, there aer organisations that will help you trap them.

if they aren't, if you can get near them, collar one and stick a note on the collar asking the owner to call you, they are unlikely to be aware of the problem their animal is causing. Sometimes somehting as simple as keeping a cat in at night can significantly reduce how much they hunt.
Rob R

None of the cats round here have collars, as far as I can see. I suspect the only way to catch one would be a baited trap (they are used to being chased off), as dpack suggested. I guess the cat people will take it, if it isn't chipped, in that case?
Pilsbury

Rob R wrote:

If a dog were to attack livestock we could legally shoot it, buts cats get away with murder. It isn't unreasonable to question that & ask why. If they are feral cats, I assume they would be classed as vermin? [/i]


is there anything to say you cant shoot them then?

I have cats in the city center and love them to bits but if they are killing livestock and damaging your livelhood can you not take actions within the law?
Rob R

Not sure about the shooting thing, having checked on other forums it seemed like you can't within the law but someone on here is likely to know for definite, I expect. Not that I have a gun. Laughing
toggle

everyone i have spoken to says cats normally leave chickens alone, that seems to suggest they may be feral, even possibly dumped housepets.

if you were certain they were feral, i would suggest you shoot them (if ti's legal). in light of how my kids love their cats, i would hope that if mine behaved in such a manner, someone would make certain it wasn't a pet first. if someopne told me my cats were killing chickens, I wopuld do my best to work with the farmer to try and minimise the problem. i'm aware that not all cat owners will do so though, including the one that just can't believe her dear little darling is the terror of the neighbourhood and has done damage to mine.
bring me sunshine

My cats thought about chasing the chickens when they were kittens but learned the hard way what a sharp beak is. No more chicken chasing for them! On the other hand, they view chicks as fair game so back when me, the cats and the livestock all lived in the same place, I made sure that the chicks couldn't be eaten by the cats or any other predator, the same way I make sure that the chickens can't be eaten by a fox (or my dogs).
Rob R

My only request would be that they keep their own animals on their own land, as I try to do (which avoids the other problems too) anything that wanders onto the owners land is fair game, like the snake that ate the cat a couple of months ago. May try the soaking thing and see if that works, just need a water pistol with a decent range and delivery.
Ixy

toggle wrote:
they are an issue in countries where there aren't native wildcats. the wildlife hasn't evolved to cope. We have native wildcats, our wildlife does, ffor the most part, cope as a species with cat precation. Comparing us with the situation in NZ is apples and oranges.

I believe the RSPB does not believe cats are responsible for bird population declines in this country.

and a lot of things crap on my property. at least the cats don't fly past and crap on my kids


local wildlife has evolved to cope with a small amount of natural predation from a carefully controlled (by nature) population of cats - not a constant bombardment from hundreds upon thousands of human-bred cats.

The things that crap on your property flying past aren't owned by people - nobody has taken them on and therefore takes the responsibility of keep them under control like we do with every other form of livestock...except cats for some reason?

I'm still not seeing a good reason why if my god went next door and injured livestock, it'd be shot, but somebody's cat wanders onto mine freely and kills things...and I can't do anything? I could even see it if they were food, or could be ground up as the cure for HIV but they really have no reason for being here other than somebody likes them.
Rosemary Judy

I seem to remember that cats are legally classified differently to dogs and other livestock - it is why years ago you needed a licence for a dog but not for a cat. And have to report an accident in a vehicle involving livestock, but again cats don't count. ( I may be making this all up...... )

I think then, that an 'owner' is not reponsible for what a cat does......

So I am sad about your little hen, but am not sure you can hold anyone responsible for the behaviour of the cat


Off to check legal status of cats.
toggle

so perhaps you want to go show your evidence to ther rspb, they don't seem to think that domestic cats affect bird numbers. If you know better, perhaps you could enlighten them.

and cats aren't legally considered livestock.

and you can see my replies above for what i think about shooting cats.
Ixy

I've said many many times in this thread that I realise cats are legally different to other livestock - what I want to know is why they have this protection? What is the reason that somebody's PET is allowed to do what it wants, and they are not held responsible, whereas EVERY other animal I own, has to be kept under control.

So I can't cleanly shoot one that's on my land killing my livestock, but I can run it over without any consequences? Neutral

RSPB figures prove only that other problems such as agricultural and building practises reduce a larger percentage of bird populations than cats do - not that it's absolutely fine and not a problem to let cats roam and kill birds. As if wild birds need that on top of everything else? And agricultural practises, much as I disagree with them, are done with the aim of producing food, and building practises are carrie dout so we hve a roof over our heads...what are cats here for? A whim.
Treacodactyl

Putting the cat question to one side for a minute, how did it get in? If predators had been seen why wasn't the hen safely enclosed? I know it would be ideal to allow animals total freedom but if I didn't completely enclose my hens they'd be fox food in about an hour.
Ixy

The hens are free range, entirely on MY land. Fox, stoat etc losses I understand - they are wild animals and that's the risk I take. However, this is somebody else's animal, coming onto my land, and taking 7, perhaps 8 lives. If I had a dog and it went next door and did that, it would be shot. If we let the cattle freely roam the countryside eating everyone's crops, we'd be fined, maybe imprisoned? But cat owners? not a bit of it. I have to pick up the bill and take the heartache, for somebody else's PET. How is that in any way fair?
Ixy

Not to mention them urinating and defacating all over the straw. Good job I'm not pregnant - cats could be responsible for the loss of an unborn child!
Rob R

Treacodactyl wrote:
Putting the cat question to one side for a minute, how did it get in?


I'm sorry, I can't afford the 12' high electric fence to keep cats out of my property. My bad.
toggle

Ixy wrote:
The hens are free range, entirely on MY land. Fox, stoat etc losses I understand - they are wild animals and that's the risk I take. However, this is somebody else's animal, coming onto my land, and taking 7, perhaps 8 lives. If I had a dog and it went next door and did that, it would be shot. If we let the cattle freely roam the countryside eating everyone's crops, we'd be fined, maybe imprisoned? But cat owners? not a bit of it. I have to pick up the bill and take the heartache, for somebody else's PET. How is that in any way fair?


Firstly, if you have very few neighbours, it may be possible to work out if it i someone's pet.

From the advice i've been given, catas normally ignore hens, they also don't normally crap in aqll sorts of wired and wonderful places.


it's entirely possdible they aren't pets, you wopuldn't be the first farmer to have someone's unwanted pets dumped on their land, I don't know where you live, so i don't know how likely it is some bloody numpty would drive out your way
Treacodactyl

Rob R wrote:
Treacodactyl wrote:
Putting the cat question to one side for a minute, how did it get in?


I'm sorry, I can't afford the 12' high electric fence to keep cats out of my property. My bad.


I was thinking along the lines of a broody coop as my hens don't seem to want to go far when they're broody.

I know it would be nice to do as you wish but, of course, we all have to work within the laws of the country so as you are aware cats are about then I think part of the responsibility is down to you to protect your stock. I'd love to control the foxes round here so I can let my hens roam but I know it's not legal so I protect my hens or I don't keep them. A similar argument to keeping cats I suppose.
Rob R

Quote:
The ordeal prompted Mr Wadey, 44, to set up a campaign appealing for the Dangerous Wild Animals Act to include cats.

He said: "We heard this screaming coming from the garden. We knew it was Wilbur, we could recognise his voice.

"It was amplified and like a baby screaming. It was very distressing."

The law currently allows anyone to walk into a pet shop and buy a cat without any checks.

The Wadeys are campaigning for any potential owner to require a licence because, Mr Wadey added, many owners underestimate the cats "wild instincts".


with minor alterations from http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/gloucestershire/8191355.stm , it still reads so true, though.

If cats are subject to this special exemption for a right to roam on anyone's property I am yet to hear a good argument why they shouldn't be fair game for a predator, providing it is on the owners land, of course.
Rob R

Treacodactyl wrote:
Rob R wrote:
Treacodactyl wrote:
Putting the cat question to one side for a minute, how did it get in?


I'm sorry, I can't afford the 12' high electric fence to keep cats out of my property. My bad.


I was thinking along the lines of a broody coop as my hens don't seem to want to go far when they're broody.


You have to listen to the whole question, don't just concentrate on the one single aspect (of the broody). Given that the broody had escaped the nest she might have not have survived is a smaller enclosure; she was where she was because they are free ranging on our land and had chosen her own nesting site, if we'd set the eggs they would have been in a broody coop. We're keeping the older chicks in a small pen, as we know the cat would have them from the way it claws at the wire.

Laws change all the time- the law regarding movements of livestock have changed dramatically in recent years. You can't use the justification of "because it's the law" when defending the justification for the law. Some people would like the law to change in favour of cats- is it reasonable to tell them they should protect their cats from a snake or dog on the owners property? If not, why not? These questions are skirted around because there isn't a good reason (or if there is one the point of this thread is to find out what it is).
RichardW

Ixy wrote:
Good job I'm not pregnant - cats could be responsible for the loss of an unborn child!


I'm sorry but thats crap. First off its more likely to be born with defects (not saying thats better or worse).

Your more likely to come into contact with it (toxoplasmosis) from other sources.

Source CDC
Quote:
Eating raw or undercooked meat is the most common way that humans contract toxoplasmosis. If you eat meat, wash off all surfaces and utensils that touched raw meat, and don't prepare meat and raw foods like salads on the same cutting board. Wash your hands thoroughly after handling raw meat.

If you garden, wear gloves when working in the soil. The toxoplasmosis parasite lives in the dirt, so also wash your hands well after gardening.

Many people naturally acquire an immunity to toxoplasmosis, and will not pass it on to their unborn child. In fact, the chances are that you have already been exposed to toxoplasmosis by handling raw meat or gardening without gloves.

More that 60 million men, women, and children in the U.S. carry the Toxoplasma parasite, but very few have symptoms because the immune system usually keeps the parasite from causing illness.


Quote:
Happily, the odds of contracting toxoplasmosis during pregnancy are low, and if you've had it once, you can't catch it again. What's more, it's rare for a woman to be infected for the first time during pregnancy and some experts argue that you're much more likely to catch it from eating raw, undercooked or cured meat than from your cat. Plus, if you live with cats, the likelihood is even higher that you've already contracted the disease and developed an immunity to it.


Quote:
Who is at Risk?

Once you have had toxoplasmosis, the body develops immunity and new exposure during pregnancy is not an issue. Peak incidence is between ages 25 and 30 years and in the UK by this time, about 30% of people will have had toxoplasmosis, hence will not be at risk of any problems during pregnancy.

It is not known for sure how many women catch toxoplasmosis during pregnancy, but some research suggests it is of the order 2 in every 1000, which means about 1400 each year in the UK.



What are the Symptoms of Toxoplasmosis?

It is unusual for otherwise healthy people to be ill when infection occurs. The most common symptoms are a viral, glandular fever-like illness or swollen glands in the neck.
How is it Diagnosed?

A blood test can indicate whether you are susceptible to getting an infection, hence at risk. It can also diagnose new infection in the mother. In France all women are screened at the beginning of pregnancy to see if they are susceptible to infection. In the UK this is not the case as the incidence of infection is low. In any case, risk can be avoided with simple measures, and although ascertaining your antibody status may reassure you if you are immune, it's not as though there is a vaccine to prevent infection, as is the case with Rubella, for example.
What are the Risks to the Baby?

In only about 30-40% of women who catch toxoplasmosis during pregnancy, does the infection pass to the unborn baby. The actual risk appears to be related to the gestation at which it is acquired. It is greatest in the third trimester at 70%, whereas in early pregnancy only 15% of infants will become infected.

Finally, it is important for pregnant farmers to be aware that toxoplasmosis can be caught from sheep at lambing time.


So 2 in 3000 might pass it on to the baby but the source of the infection is more commonly not from cats.

Best get rid of all the sheep too then. (and soil & raw meats plus unpasteurised goat's milk as thats bad for it too.)

Oh & the BEST protection for most (IE not imuno compromised) people seems to be to get it BEFORE you want to be pregnant as you will then never get it again. So having cats around might just be doing you a favour if you do decide to have a child at some point.
Mary-Jane

Ixy wrote:
Not to mention them urinating and defacating all over the straw. Good job I'm not pregnant - cats could be responsible for the loss of an unborn child!


Odd. We have 3 cats and they've never urinated or defecated in our straw...of which we have masses. They sleep in it from time to time though.

And I'm no medic, but I've never heard of cats being responsible for the loss of an unborn child. I would have thought sheep/lambs posed more of a threat in respect of that.

Edit: Just seen Richard's response. Seems sensible to me.
Ixy

RichardW wrote:
Ixy wrote:
Good job I'm not pregnant - cats could be responsible for the loss of an unborn child!


I'm sorry but thats crap. First off its more likely to be born with defects (not saying thats better or worse).

Your more likely to come into contact with it (toxoplasmosis) from other sources.

Source CDC
Quote:
Eating raw or undercooked meat is the most common way that humans contract toxoplasmosis. If you eat meat, wash off all surfaces and utensils that touched raw meat, and don't prepare meat and raw foods like salads on the same cutting board. Wash your hands thoroughly after handling raw meat.

If you garden, wear gloves when working in the soil. The toxoplasmosis parasite lives in the dirt, so also wash your hands well after gardening.

Many people naturally acquire an immunity to toxoplasmosis, and will not pass it on to their unborn child. In fact, the chances are that you have already been exposed to toxoplasmosis by handling raw meat or gardening without gloves.

More that 60 million men, women, and children in the U.S. carry the Toxoplasma parasite, but very few have symptoms because the immune system usually keeps the parasite from causing illness.


Quote:
Happily, the odds of contracting toxoplasmosis during pregnancy are low, and if you've had it once, you can't catch it again. What's more, it's rare for a woman to be infected for the first time during pregnancy and some experts argue that you're much more likely to catch it from eating raw, undercooked or cured meat than from your cat. Plus, if you live with cats, the likelihood is even higher that you've already contracted the disease and developed an immunity to it.


Quote:
Who is at Risk?

Once you have had toxoplasmosis, the body develops immunity and new exposure during pregnancy is not an issue. Peak incidence is between ages 25 and 30 years and in the UK by this time, about 30% of people will have had toxoplasmosis, hence will not be at risk of any problems during pregnancy.

It is not known for sure how many women catch toxoplasmosis during pregnancy, but some research suggests it is of the order 2 in every 1000, which means about 1400 each year in the UK.



What are the Symptoms of Toxoplasmosis?

It is unusual for otherwise healthy people to be ill when infection occurs. The most common symptoms are a viral, glandular fever-like illness or swollen glands in the neck.
How is it Diagnosed?

A blood test can indicate whether you are susceptible to getting an infection, hence at risk. It can also diagnose new infection in the mother. In France all women are screened at the beginning of pregnancy to see if they are susceptible to infection. In the UK this is not the case as the incidence of infection is low. In any case, risk can be avoided with simple measures, and although ascertaining your antibody status may reassure you if you are immune, it's not as though there is a vaccine to prevent infection, as is the case with Rubella, for example.
What are the Risks to the Baby?

In only about 30-40% of women who catch toxoplasmosis during pregnancy, does the infection pass to the unborn baby. The actual risk appears to be related to the gestation at which it is acquired. It is greatest in the third trimester at 70%, whereas in early pregnancy only 15% of infants will become infected.

Finally, it is important for pregnant farmers to be aware that toxoplasmosis can be caught from sheep at lambing time.


So 2 in 3000 might pass it on to the baby but the source of the infection is more commonly not from cats.

Best get rid of all the sheep too then. (and soil & raw meats plus unpasteurised goat's milk as thats bad for it too.)

Oh & the BEST protection for most (IE not imuno compromised) people seems to be to get it BEFORE you want to be pregnant as you will then never get it again. So having cats around might just be doing you a favour if you do decide to have a child at some point.


Nothing there that says it does NOT come from cats, in fact it acknowledges them as a source.

According to the nearest book I have handy:

"The cat plays a central role in the epidemiology of toxoplasmosis and the disease is virtually absent from areas where cats do not occur."


The sheep wouldn't have toxo if it weren't for cats spreading it. The sheep are food, the cats are somebody ELSE's animal, wandering around on my land for no good reason just because they 'like them'. We also get into trouble if our sheep go wandering around spreading their diseases on other people's land.

As for 'information' about cats not defecating in weird and wonderful places - what planet are they on? I used to have to live with some cats and they never ceased to amaze with the lengths they would go to to poop somewhere exciting Rolling Eyes It's disgusting and why should everyone else have to put up wit it, just because somebody wants a certain pet? I like walruses - if I got a walrus and let it freely roam round the neighbourhood trashing stuff, would that be OK? No? So why so with cats? STILL no answer. I am living within the law and putting up with this time and time again, but I don't think it's right and the law should be changed so that cats come into line with every other domestic animal kept
Ixy

I saw a cat spray a straw bale with my own eyes the other morning - if yours don't do that, lucky you.
Gervase

As far as I'm aware, the dog is the odd one out when it comes to what vets call 'companion animals' and the rest of us call pets.
Ferrets, hamsters, rats, tarantulas, lemurs and cats are all the same in the eyes of the law. Only the dog has specific protection.
We seem to have two intractable sides here - One side hates cats, the other doesn't. Neither will change either its own mind, the other sides or the law. End of.
RichardW

Ixy wrote:
1, It's disgusting and why should everyone else have to put up with it, just because somebody wants a certain pet?
2, STILL no answer.
3, I am living within the law and putting up with this time and time again, but I don't think it's right and the law should be changed so that cats come into line with every other domestic animal kept



1, Because its the law
2, Its been answered you just dont like the answer
3, I refer you to my previous response (1) Cat owners are living within the law.


If you dont like the law speak to your MP.
Treacodactyl

I can see both sides. Cats can be a real pain in our garden with their faeces and I've seen them catch quite a bit of wildlife, even animals that are protected.

I wouldn't have one here as there's no room. But after loosing so much produce to mice, especially this year, I would consider getting one if we had a small holding/farm. I also like petting cats and often seem to take more interest in them than their owners round here.

I'll get off the fence now.
RichardW

If you dont want other peoples cats around get

a, a dog
b, a cat & train it to go & do what you want
c, a live catch trap & give the cat to the rspca or cats dodah.

Oh & just to make it clear I am not a cat person. We have 5 cos
a, the oh loves em
b, we wanted natural vermin control

I prefer dogs. Cats do like me as I let them get on with what they want & when they want me I am open to them, I dont got to them. I would not have a cat if I was on my own.
Ixy

RichardW wrote:
Ixy wrote:
1, It's disgusting and why should everyone else have to put up with it, just because somebody wants a certain pet?
2, STILL no answer.
3, I am living within the law and putting up with this time and time again, but I don't think it's right and the law should be changed so that cats come into line with every other domestic animal kept



1, Because its the law
2, Its been answered you just dont like the answer
3, I refer you to my previous response (1) Cat owners are living within the law.


If you dont like the law speak to your MP.


1 - what a cop-out answer. laws have always been 100% right have they?
2 - where is the answer? I see no answer?
3 - I am living within the law too - what makes the law right?
Ixy

RichardW wrote:
If you dont want other peoples cats around get

a, a dog
b, a cat & train it to go & do what you want
c, a live catch trap & give the cat to the rspca or cats dodah.

...


so I have to a) pay for a dog and it's upkeep and vets bills, and keep it on my own property/under control (but cat owners don't) even though i don't want to - because someone else wants a pet and doesn;t want to take responsibility for the damage it causes.
b) pay for a cat and it's upkeep, care for it and add to my neighbours problems even though I don't want one - all because someone wants a certain pet but not to take responsibility for it.
c) pay for a live trap, bait, check it regularly, use my fuel and resources to take it to a shelter where it will use up yet more resources or be put down anyway.

And what do cat owners have to do? Nowt. I'm the only one in this arrangement who suffers, so how is this law fair?
toggle

whose cat is it then?
Rob R

toggle wrote:
whose cat is it then?


We shall see, or not, when the animals are caught & we follow your suggestions. I think they are probably 'released' cats and we will never know. If the law could be changed so that it becomes law to identify your animal with a microchip registered to you (which seems sensible), then we would know who was responsible for the animal, even after they'd dumped it, cats without chips could be given them when caught & rehomed.

How far do domestic cats roam?
toggle

i would support compulsory chipping. compulsory chipping of catys would probably require some changes in the law on whether you own a cat as well.

I would turn the air blue with my opinions on people who dump animals on farms, but if they are dumped cats, then complaining here about cat owners is a bit pointless, most will be fuming at the people who dumped them.

domestic cats can easily do a couple of miles if unobstructed, a complete male will roam further for the chance to get laid. they can roam too far and get lost.
Rob R

RichardW wrote:
Ixy wrote:
1, It's disgusting and why should everyone else have to put up with it, just because somebody wants a certain pet?
2, STILL no answer.
3, I am living within the law and putting up with this time and time again, but I don't think it's right and the law should be changed so that cats come into line with every other domestic animal kept



1, Because its the law
2, Its been answered you just dont like the answer
3, I refer you to my previous response (1) Cat owners are living within the law.


If you dont like the law speak to your MP.


I like how my example of this case where the victim was a cat (although the circumstances were different, as our hen didn't go into someone else's garden) has been happily ignored but I guess I should send your comments to Mr Wadey- it's the law, tough.
toggle

pretty much, just the same as if my roaming cat gets hit by a car, it's tough sh*t
Rob R

toggle wrote:
pretty much, just the same as if my roaming cat gets hit by a car, it's tough sh*t


I like your attitude. thumbright

I do find it a little strange that the law is OK with running a cat down in a car, but not shooting them, though.
Rob R

toggle wrote:
I would turn the air blue with my opinions on people who dump animals on farms, but if they are dumped cats, then complaining here about cat owners is a bit pointless, most will be fuming at the people who dumped them.


Most (so far, although maybe it is just the most vocal- I haven't counted) seem to be blaming us for not surrounding everything on the farm with chicken wire. Contrast this with threads about dogs doing exactly the same thing. Edit: my mistake- it was just the most vocal.

In reality this is a complaint about the law that allows this to happen. Ixy has other complaints about cats in general, down to her experience of living with one, I'm lucky- only ever had one but I couldn't keep it under control, so never again. Cat owners should be in favour of this, if it is such a minority at fault, as it gives cats in general a bad name.
Rob R

Gervase wrote:
We seem to have two intractable sides here - One side hates cats, the other doesn't. Neither will change either its own mind, the other sides or the law. End of.


We don't; I don't hate cats, I hate some of the things they do on my property. I think what you meant is that one side loves cats, and the other doesn't.
toggle

Rob R wrote:


Most (so far, although maybe it is just the most vocal- I haven't counted) seem to be blaming us for not surrounding everything on the farm with chicken wire. Contrast this with threads about dogs doing exactly the same thing.



I think you have to include loss from cat attack along with loss from other uncontrolable animals. If the cat is owned and attacking livestck, then the owner should work with you to take all reasonable precautions to prevent this, including keeping the cat inside if necessary, or only letting it out at night when i would assume you shut your birds in to prevent fox attacks) . if ti's not an owned cat, I can't see why you can't shoot it, maybee because scaring it off isn't considered dangerous to you. i would be happier if you tried to trap though, Just in case it's a lost pet.
Rob R

toggle wrote:
I can't see why you can't shoot it, maybee because scaring it off isn't considered dangerous to you.


I don't understand this sentence, please could you elaborate?

toggle wrote:
i would be happier if you tried to trap though, Just in case it's a lost pet.


There's another thread, that Richard seems to be trying to drag this discussion over to with his emphasis on the word chicken, about trapping squirrels- I was going to go for the fen trap idea (for the squirrels!) but I wonder if there might be a live catch trap that would do both... Do cats like peanut butter?

Ixy saw the animal again in the pig shed just now, along with its kitten. Almost caught the kitten but not quite- so I think trapping will be the only way to catch.
Treacodactyl

Rob R wrote:
toggle wrote:
I would turn the air blue with my opinions on people who dump animals on farms, but if they are dumped cats, then complaining here about cat owners is a bit pointless, most will be fuming at the people who dumped them.


Most (so far, although maybe it is just the most vocal- I haven't counted) seem to be blaming us for not surrounding everything on the farm with chicken wire. Contrast this with threads about dogs doing exactly the same thing.


I think most people are just saying what can be done within the law. If it was legal to control cats then do so, but if it isn't then you have to do something else.

I'm not entirely sure what the law states about cats, what does it say?
toggle

Rob R wrote:
toggle wrote:
I can't see why you can't shoot it, maybee because scaring it off isn't considered dangerous to you.


I don't understand this sentence, please could you elaborate?


you can kill a dog from a distance because getting up to it to try to scare it is possibly dangerous. cats won't do damage to people in the same way a big dog could, therefore you don't get to shoot a cat, you don't need to protect yourself.
Quote:

toggle wrote:
i would be happier if you tried to trap though, Just in case it's a lost pet.


There's another thread, that Richard seems to be trying to drag this discussion over to with his emphasis on the word chicken, about trapping squirrels- I was going to go for the fen trap idea (for the squirrels!) but I wonder if there might be a live catch trap that would do both... Do cats like peanut butter?

Ixy saw the animal again in the pig shed just now, along with its kitten. Almost caught the kitten but not quite- so I think trapping will be the only way to catch.


would a bit of the stuff sally sticks in those plague rats get the cat in a trap well? if not, any smelly food, maybee tinned fish. it's probably hungry. sardines are probably good
Rob R

Thanks for the clarification.

I think I have plenty of bait to hand, more kittens have been spotted- could recoup our costs by selling the doctored youngsters- might be the most ethical alternative.
Ixy

I don't hate cats as such - I just do NOT want one, and I'm at a loss to see why the law states I have to, just because next door might want one? But if I got a walrus, it would be expected that I controlled it, and next door wouldn't have to deal with it raiding their bins for fish scraps.

Given that The scabby cat that normally tries to ingratiate itself with me whenever there's meat cooking has been missing for a while and this new one's moved in with kittens in tow...I think we have a colony forming Rolling Eyes

Admittedly, the cat in question is quite stunning - never seen one quite that colour, and the kittens are nice too, with long fluffy hair so I can't see why they'd be abandoned. Anyway, found this:

"Under British law (a slight generalisation since laws differ in Scotland), feral cats are classed, and controlled, as vermin and legally belong to the person who owns the land the feral cats inhabit. The landowner can order them destroyed at any time. However, it is against the law to cause cruelty to wild or feral animals and if they are destroyed, they must be trapped and destroyed in a humane manner." From 2002
RichardW

Rob R wrote:

Ixy saw the animal again in the pig shed just now, along with its kitten.



Cant see a cat taking its kitten very far.

Sounds like its actually your cat under the definition Ixy made.

Ixy wrote:
Under British law, feral cats are classed, and controlled, as vermin and legally belong to the person who owns the land the feral cats inhabit.
Ixy

RichardW wrote:
Rob R wrote:

Ixy saw the animal again in the pig shed just now, along with its kitten.



Cant see a cat taking its kitten very far.

Sounds like its actually your cat under the definition Ixy made.

Ixy wrote:
Under British law, feral cats are classed, and controlled, as vermin and legally belong to the person who owns the land the feral cats inhabit.


Time to get them under control then!
colour it green

ok this is my stance:
I own a cat, and am a cat lover.
I understand your view to a point..

One of my neighbours has no garden or outside at all, but keeps a cat. The put it out at night. This annoys me, as cats definitely need outside space, and I think this is pretty irresponsible. Despite my own cat and visitors, I don't find cat poo all over the place. They are certainly much cleaner than dogs, and despite the law, people are still more than happy to let their dog poo by our gate or on the pavement.. Sad , and by far my biggest threat to my livestock is dogs.

However this isn't really about cat lovers vs dog lovers, and personal feelings towards cats should not cloud judgement.

if you have a cat, lets say, taking down sheep like a dog, then just like a dog it should be perfectly within the law to shoot it. I understood that this law did not apply to chickens? can you shoot a dog for killing chickens? however, setting the actual law aside for a moment, I think if you had a predator cat coming and taking your hens , and you caught it actually doing that, then morally, you would have the right to do something about it. However, you would have to be sure you had the culprit.

I am surprised though that the broody hen was unprotected. She would have been vulnerable to a number of predators, as you know, and you do not know it was the cat, you just suspect it. Personally, I put my broodies in a coup. we had an issue with rats going in and stealing eggs. I've seen foxes in the area. I'm not saying you are to blame, but I would offer protection, and not because of cats (when it comes to my cat vs my hens, the hens win).

for the record, in my own case, our biggest danger to our broodies and chicks was from rats, and my cat is an excellent ratter. So my cat living here is an asset to my poultry keeping.


If you have seen the cat with a kitten, then it seems very likely to me that it is feral, and having to support a kitten, it might be taking bigger chances. I would think the best outcome for you and the cat would be to get one of the charities to trap and take it away.
toggle

Ixy wrote:


Admittedly, the cat in question is quite stunning - never seen one quite that colour, and the kittens are nice too, with long fluffy hair so I can't see why they'd be abandoned.


abandonment of pregnant animals is sickeningly common.
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