| Archive for Downsizer For an ethical approach to consumption |
| Nick |
Chickens that don't lay?Do all chicken lay eggs? We'd like to keep birds for meat, and, as we don't eat eggs very often, rather than generate a surplus, what strain doesn't lay eggs? Clearly, the odd egg's not a problem, but minimum eggability is desired.Best breed? |
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| gil |
I thought the idea with chickens for the table was that you kill them before they start egg-laying ? | ||||||||
| RichardW |
A long long time before. You might start to get eggs at 16 weeks but more like at 18-22. Meat birds can be ready at 5 weeks if pushed or 12 weeks if not. justme |
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| VSS |
Just fatten up a batch of cobbs or something. Buy in as day old chicks, and kill at 10 weeks (long before they start laying). Don't try keeping for longer than 10 weeks - they have a sort of built in obselescence, and begin to self destruct. | ||||||||
| Woodburner |
I think what Nick is looking for is a variety that has been bred for meat rather than egg production.
I know ther are breeds out there such as Sasso but I have no experience, nor done any research, to recommend one. |
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| gil |
Is that cos Cobbs become prone to heart attacks and leg problems when they get too big ?
What do you reckon to breeds like Mastergris or Colorpak for meat, VSS ? |
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| Nick |
Thanks guys, the fact they don't lay until well after we'd have eaten them passed me by, because I AM STUPID. 
So, best breed for meat, please? |
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| judith |
Cockerels don't lay eggs!
If you don't want to go down the meat hybrid route and prefer to breed your own, then why not get some Light Sussex / RIR / Maran or something like that and sell off the pullets. You can then bring the cockerels on slowly. |
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| judith |
If you do want meat birds, Sassos grow well and slowly enough to build up a good flavour, but they are a bit on the chewy side if you let them free range - better in a large pen IMO. | ||||||||
| Nick |
Cockerals are not going to work. We've had them before, and they're too noisy.
The plan, seemingly, is buying in chicks, raising them, quietly, for our table. So, anyone local to me on here supply suitable birds? |
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| judith |
Is Cyril Bason local enough? | ||||||||
| Nick |
Is that a place, or a person? (And where?) I mean, I know I'm in one of the hearts of poultry production, so I know I can get birds, I'm after paying someone I know, or who is, at least, recommended. | ||||||||
| judith |
A company. In Craven Arms.
http://www.cyril-bason.co.uk/ |
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| Nick |
Perfect. Given that I'll luv them and hug them and protect them from nasty foxes and stuff, what's the survival rate of day olds? Pretty good? | ||||||||
| gil |
Depends how you keep them. Most mortality is in the 48 hrs after they arrive, IIRC, because of shock / being shifted.
Commercially, 8-10% mortality is bad. |
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| judith |
I don't think I've ever lost one at the day-old stage. Have had a couple of losses from sourcrop when they were around 8 weeks though.
Oh, and they stink! |
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| Rob R |
I'd encourage you to avoid some of the more self destructive hybrid birds, as their very breeding is tantamount to animal cruelty on an industrial scale. I know a few birds on this scale isn't going to make that much difference to world chicken economics, but which came first?
A quick google tells me that I appear to be agreeing with a couple of TV chefs: http://observer.guardian.co.uk/foodmonthly/story/0,,1299972,00.html |
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| jocorless |
There is a guy on the RC Forums who provides Hubbards which apparantly are a slow growing strain and I've eaten Sasso's and Poulet de Bresse - which are supposed to be THE French Chicken breed but apparantly the chicks are very hard to get hold of as the frogs don't like their best breed being grown outside of France | ||||||||
| Nick |
So, tell me what I should be going for. You know I have room, grass, fresh water, and want the best taste, with money no (real) object. I guess I'd want a chicken a week, and I have tons of freezer space.
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| gil |
Day olds need heating, for the first 4 (?) weeks or so, progressively less as they get proper feathers, depends also on time of year. | ||||||||
| Nick |
Heating I can do. Shelter, water, food, space, the lot. Even have some AOL CDs that might be just the ticket... | ||||||||
| jocorless |
I would personally go for a slow growing strain - the Ross Cob is designed for intensive rearing. | ||||||||
| Rob R |
I have no real experience of chicken rearing for meat of my own, but I've worked with a few million of the cobbs, so my experience may have skewed my judgement slightly.
Breeds, some of the more fowl people on here might be able to advise, but I've always liked the light sussex for eating quality. |
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| Jonnyboy |
Dorking & orpington make good table birds.
standard hen weights are 3kg & 3.5kg for hens and 4 & 4.5kg for cocks. |
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| Nick |
I guess I could get 5 of each of, say, 5 breeds and decide empirically. | ||||||||
| judith |
They will all be crowing by the time you eat them.
It would be good to do a taste-off though. |
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| Rob R |
Splendid idea, get some Ross Cobbs too, and see if there is any difference...
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| Nick |
Simply. You crow, you're in the freezer. |
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| judith |
Cruel, but fair. | ||||||||
| AnnaD |
Does this mean you can't keep one lot of chickens for both meat and eggs; preferably eggs first? Or does it depend the breed? |
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| Jonnyboy |
There are egg biased birds, table biased and dual purpose. | ||||||||
| woodsprite |
If its of any use Nick, I've bought day old ross cobs from Cyril Basons every quarter for the past 10 ish years and I've only ever lost a handful overall. I agree with Judith that they are better in a large pen than totally free range, especially at first. When you get used to keeping them you can guage whether to let some of them freerange to a/ make chicken stews etc and b/ keep fed costs down slightly.
In my experience you can keep the birds longer than 16 weeks, I've kept and eaten perfectly healthy cobbs for up to 7 months. How they taste depends a lot on what you feed them. Personally I have them on chick crumbs for a couple of weeks but then they go onto mixed corn and foraged greens just like my free range birds. I get an unsexed mix of a 6. This is good because the mix of sexes means that they naturally get to weight at different times and I usually slaughter two at a time, plenty enough for me to cope with without having to dedicate a whole evening/day to it, plus I like my meat on the hoof for as long as possible. The number is down to a calculation I made when my sons lived at home and is based on a rotation of meat meals over a period of 3 months bearing in mind that I would always have the batches overlapping to allow for regular parties where lots of chicken might be required etc. I've tried rearing rare bird breeds and combo's for meat but frankly they just aren't as good for meat as the sassos or cobbs in my opinion and I know that lots here will throw their arms up at that  .
When you came to drop the pork off last year you will have seen some large white hens trundling around with the rest of them, they were CB's cobbs. |
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| Louisdog |
A chap near where I used to live swore by Ixworths for meat, he kept his free-ranging outside, I think he said he got a few eggs from them too.
I bought some layers from Cyril Bason a few years back and their customer service seemed good and delivery charge reasonable, that's if you want to go down the commercial breed route. Cheers |
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| Nick |
Love this place. So much free, useful advice! | ||||||||
| Jonnyboy |
I have a jar of chicken tonight for you as well. |
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| Rob R |
I too have bought from Cyril Bason, and the birds have always been cock-on. | ||||||||
| Nick |
Funny thing is, I KNOW you're not joking, you sad, sad man. Have you removed that Dairylea Dunker wrapper from your roof-racked car? | ||||||||
| Nick |
Ah, I'd want hens. |
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| Jonnyboy |
Nope. |
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| Rob R |
Somehow I was expecting some more ribald retort 
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| Jonnyboy |
cock out? | ||||||||
| AnnaD |
That's good to know. I'll keep it in mind when I eventually one day have a garden. |
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| Rosemary Judy |
Good thread Nick, as I also want to grow meat birds this year.
How does Cyril Bason send the day olds ? and can I order only 6 or 10 ? |
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| jocorless |
Looks as though you can only order a minimum of 12 as day old's but I've seen he has Black Rock's which I was after and wondering where to get them from for layers | ||||||||
| Nick |
I reckon, at that price (pence per bird), if you only wanted 6 or 10, you could pay for 12, and just take 6 or 10. I know it costs more, but you're only talking about £18.50.
Or, I could be tempted to go halves on a batch with you? And I'd even deliver, by convenient arrangement (you're still in Northampton...?) |
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| Chez |
Bason's are really helpful and friendly on the phone, too.
Nick, the other thing you could do is hatch a batch of sex-linked birds - eg, Light Sussex mother cross Rhode Island Red father. The males are silver and the females are gold at hatching. Traditionally obviously you keep the hens for eggs and eat the boys; but I don't see why the girls wouldn't be good eating too; and you could either give the boys away or knock them on the head. |
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| pookie |
I hatch these and yes the girls are huge too! |
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| jocorless |
Just noticed this over on the RC forum and thought it might be of interest - The post is from Debbie who runs Hidden Valley Pigs
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| Nick |
Aye, been chatting to Poulet over there, who supplies the Hubbards. He delivers locally to me once a fortnight, and at 80p a bird, I think Ill take the plunge once I get back from a trip in February. I'll also try some others for comparison. | ||||||||
| Rob R |
I've had Black Rocks from there as both day olds & POL, and on that scale (a dozen birds) it was better, economically, to get them as POL. The current layers were also from there & they've been excellent birds. |
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| tahir |
Us too |
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| sean |
When you say 'Us', how many people in your family know about it? |
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| tahir |
Err, well now that you ask.... |
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| Nick |
I can say, hand on heart that the kids have been asking, and mid way through Hugh's show last night, Louise suggested it, so I'm the last to make the decision (publically), which means it's NOT MY FAULT. | ||||||||
| mochyn |
I'm on for meat birds this year too. Chez/Pookie: have you or will you have a few I could buy/exchange? | ||||||||
| Chez |
Are you looking for hatching eggs or young birds?
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| mochyn |
Pref. baby birds... | ||||||||
| vanessa |
Going back to the meat / eggs issue.
You can eat ANY birds; some are "better" table birds than others, but all are edible. HOWEVER, an "egg" bird left to free-range will be a very lean bird indeed, and therefore a boiler rather than a roaster. I know; been there, done that 
Equally, a "meat" bird will (obviously or the race would have died out long ago) lay some eggs ... but not many. |
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| alison |
Debbie and I shared the batch and the Ross Cobbs did indeed have to moved around to get them walking. We had to keep the food at the far end of the paddock to make them walk to it. |
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| Nick |
Naw, I don't want Behemoth chickens. | ||||||||
| wellington womble |
Didn't Hugh do a taste test on different breeds? Somewhere in the skip that is my house is the encyclopedia of chickens. If I can find it, do you want to borrow it? It does make good bedtime reading. You've got plenty of space, so it won't matter if you end up wanting every breed in the book! | ||||||||
| Bebo |
He did. All were from an Indian Game cock and he tried three different hens - Welsummer, Dorking and Wyandotte I think. Pretty sure it was the Dorking / Indian Game cross that came out tastiest. | ||||||||
| Rob R |
You're right, despite what it says in the River Cottage Cookbook! |
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| Bebo |
Seen the programmes so many times I pretty much know them off by heart. I particularly like the episodes with his chicken fancier mate because of his fantastic handlebar moustache. | ||||||||
| Rob R |
That's how I remember it! 'Dorking, oldest breed there is!' he says, so it jumped off the page when I read they'd got it the wrong way round in the book 
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| Bebo |
Welsummer, soft feathers no good............. | ||||||||
| Rob R |
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| alison |
Although I think I read recently he has cahnged that opinion now, and buff orpingtons come into the equation. | ||||||||
| Chez |
I didn't think that buff orpingtons were that big once you'd got their clothes off? I can't remember who told me that, though ... | ||||||||
| judith |
I found they were all mouth and trousers too. Cooked up nicely though. |
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| mochyn |
Now there's the thing: even small birds can be very tasty. We had some half bantams last year and they made marvelous casseroles and soups. We'll be eating their younger relations soon. | ||||||||
| judith |
Oh absolutely. If you have them anyway, they might as well become dinner. But I find that the equation of food + effort in terms of plucking doesn't really match up with the food out side - certainly not enough to deliberately choose them to rear. |
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| pookie |
I'll be revving up the incubator soon, how many were you thinking, age etc can do the traditional RIRXLSussex auto-sexing for you. |
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| mochyn |
Chez s going to do me a few of hers via judith's incubator, but I'd like a few of yours too: perhaps 6? Then I'll have a choice to compare and decide who to kee for breeding and who to just eat! judith: quite agree: I don't see the bantam crosses as 'intentional' table birds, but they're here now... Good layers so far, though (the females, that is). |
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| pookie |
ok will do. | ||||||||
| Bebo |
We've kept chickens less than a year and only for eggs so far but I was also considering getting an incubator and raising some for meat and replacement layers. Our cock is a bit of a mongrel that we acquired as a freebie from our next door neighbour. The hens are a mixture - 2 ex-battery rescues, 2 light sussex and 5 various hybrid layers. If I just incubate some of the eggs from these are the resultant chooks going to be worth eating or should I separate out the light sussex and get hold of a light sussex cock? | ||||||||
| Chez |
Personally I wouldn't bother with hatching from the hybrids. And whether you use your cockerel or not would depend on how butch he is. If he's a reasonably big chap you'd probably do okay. If he's smallish, how about getting a few eggs in from someone else and hatching them to eat, then keeping a cock-bird to breed from with yours next year? | ||||||||
| Bebo |
I don't like to boast, but he is quite a big boy so I think he's up to the job. If I get a chance at the weekend I'll try to post a piccie. If it's not worth hatching from the hybrids eggs then I might just buy in some day old chicks for now. | ||||||||
| judith |
The Light Sussex hens would be excellent candidates, though. |
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| Chez |
Yes, definitely agree, if he's a big chappie it would be worth trying and seeing what you get. What's he like under his clothes, though? .
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| Bebo |
OK, it might be a plan to gradually phase out the hybrids and replace with light sussex in the medium term if I want to continue meat producing. Maybe for a first go rather than investing in an incubator I should see if I can get some day old light sussex chicks then I can keep the hens and eat the cockerels. If it works out OK I can then get an incubator, use the light sussex eggs and cull the hybrids when they stop laying. | ||||||||
| Bebo |
Don't know, I've been too shy to look. |
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| judith |
Do your LS hens never go broody? |
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| Chez |
. Serious point - re the orpingtons upthread - HUGE looking birds, but mostly feathers.
Could you just choose the LS eggs to go in the incubator this season? Or as Judith says, wait until you get a broody? |
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| Bebo |
Got them at 14 weeks in early July so they didn't really get an opportunity to go broody this summer. They are still laying (in fact we are getting 7 eggs a day from 9 birds even now) but no signs of broodiness. We did have a broody hybrid in the summer, but as we didn't have a cockerel at that stage we just kept taking the eggs away until she got fed up with it. | ||||||||
| Chez |
The Law Of Mr Sod states that you can have a broody for months, finally think 'blinking heck, I'll set some eggs then' and four days after you put them under her she'll get fed up . They are supposed to make good mother's though.
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