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Hairyloon

Chimney Pointing

The daughter's mother had a new roof over the winter (just don't ask Confused), but there is still water coming in... the diagnosis is defective pointing on the chimney.
Ignoring for a moment the sheer incompetence of a roof firm that did not notice and suggest it was done while the scaffolding was up, I am wondering about alternate methods of access.
As is, they want to charge 700 for scaffolding, and reckon it is a 2 man-day job.

It is a big firm, and they also teach roofing, so frankly, I think they are seriously lacking in initiative: I can think of a variety of ways you could probably do it safely: at worst, all you need is a fall arrest system and something to attach it to. Confused
Hots

Ah, if only.

It's all about 'ealth 'n' safety innit.

I saw an article on the TV some time ago where a vicar now has to rent a scaffold tower to change the light bulbs in the church as a ladder has been deemed too dangerous, despite the fact that a ladder has been used for years without accident and one assumes the vicar is watched over by his God as well.
We had the outside of our house painted a while back. Full scaffolding required where ladders were OK in the past, also new chimney pots and re-pointed chimney needed scaffold.
Pah.

If I had the money and the inclination I would start up a scaffolding business right now.
Gervase

If you intend doing the repointing yourself, you're free to use whatever you want - plastic straws and sticky-tape, anti-gravity belts or pads with wings. But if you expect a professional to do the job, then bite the bullet and accept the scaffolding. I repoint chimneys and I would not do it without proper equipment. To expect someone to rake out, make good and then haul up tubs of mortar for repointing while dangling on a rope is taking the p!ss!
That said, I'll do the job without scaffolding for 8,000.
Hairyloon

To expect someone to rake out, make good and then haul up tubs of mortar for repointing while dangling on a rope is taking the p!ss!

Nobody suggested they did: what is it you would dangle the rope from?
But you can buy a scaffold tower for 1000, it does not strike me as an extreme engineering challenge to extend a platform from it around the chimney.
So 700 hire seems like a lot.

But since you are the expert, how long would you expect to take to re-point one face of a chimney?
Gervase

You can certainly buy a scaffold tower for a grand, but you also have to factor in the access around the chimney and the considerable insurance. My scaffolding pal pays 30,000 a year insurance. Yes, that's right, 30,000.
OK, he's got a fair-sized company with eight full-time scaffolders, but that's still a heck of a lot. It's that much because people are litigious, and third-party claims are expensive.
As for how long the work will take, that depends on the chimney and the mortar. An eight-pot stack with cement mortar, maybe a few days, a two-pot stack with lime mortar, a day. For a good job, reckon on two and a half to three square metres a day.
baldybloke

Surely if she has had a new roof, they should have inspected the chimney whilst about it. That lacks of professionalism.
I've just had my chimney repointed with lead flashing repaired and gutters cleaned whilst he was up there. A full service, you might say for a very reasonable price.
Hairyloon

Surely if she has had a new roof, they should have inspected the chimney whilst about it. That lacks of professionalism.

Quite. But we were ignoring that for the time being. Wink
vegplot

You can get sectioned for chimney pointing.


I did my own with the help of my builder brother. We got a firm in to do the scaffolding as that the only really sensible way we found of doing it while minimising risks.
RichardW

Cherry picker?

Or you do some times see a platform that has been put around the chimney & on to top of the roof without a full scaffold system going to the ground. Access via fixed ladders or a lifting platform.
Hairyloon

Cherry picker?
Can't get to the inside face... except by the aforesaid dangling, and I don't believe that is allowed to dangle off a crane (not sure why not Confused).
Quote:
Or you do some times see a platform that has been put around the chimney & on to top of the roof without a full scaffold system going to the ground. Access via fixed ladders or a lifting platform.

That was my thinking: simple scaffold tower and extend said platform across the roof and around the chimney.

It strikes me that if the professionals don't have the initiative to do something like that, then there is a huge gap in the market for someone who does.
RichardW

You can get cherry pickers that have an extra "elbow" so you can get to the back from the front.

Plus if you can get to the front & back of the house you could do it from both positions to do all of the stack.
derbyshiredowser

I collected various lengths of scrap scaffold & clamps from the local reclamation yards and then bought some boards. I erected it around the chimney and hired a crawler ladder to make it easy to reach. The ladder from the ground to the crawler I secured to the wall using rawl plug eye bolts from screwfix. It was all very steady and safe and cost very little to do. onemanband

Totally agree with Gervase's points.
That 700 for scaffold sounds like traditional tube scaffold (that's 2 blokes half a day to erect, half a day to dismantle + overheads)
1000 buys you an ally tower which will get you to gutter level, maybe higher - then what? If you add a platform onto roof you run the risk of pushing tower over .
You can hire specialised chimney scaffolds. They hang off ridge like a roof ladder but come with handrails and platforms. Hard to find, expensive to hire and hassle to erect.
Cherry picker is no good. Go too low and you could damage your new roof. Won't get to every part of chimney. Hire cost for 2 days is as much as scaffold by the time you add delivery, insurances etc
The other thing to consider is how you point a chimney whilst hanging off a ladder or similar contraption? I can use an angle grinder one handed but I certainly wouldn't rake out a whole chimney one handed. What about pointing one handed? Try lifting a pot onto a chimney whilst standing on a roof ladder. And where do you put your hammer, chisel,grinder,trowels, brush,water,muck, cup of tea when working off a ladder?
How much damage will you do to your new roof whilst scrabbling around on a roof ladder for 2 days?
I will inspect chimneys/roofs and do small repairs off a roof ladder, but there comes a point where safety, efficiency, quality of work, damage limitation and overall cost mean that scaffold is the best option.
That said I'll do it for 7500 without scaffold. I think Gervase is ripping you off wanting 8000
vegplot

Go the scaffold route. It took us two full days to rebuild a double flue chimney. Not that many bricks involved but the amount of work was far more than I had anticipated. Granted we were rebuilding the chimney but we didn't know we needed to until we were up there and found repointing and flashing repair would not be enough to cure the problem. Hairyloon

1000 buys you an ally tower which will get you to gutter level, maybe higher - then what? If you add a platform onto roof you run the risk of pushing tower over.
I reckon the tower goes high enough, and why not bolt it to the side of the house to avoid pushing it over?
Quote:
You can hire specialised chimney scaffolds. They hang off ridge like a roof ladder but come with handrails and platforms. Hard to find, expensive to hire and hassle to erect.

Why is that then?
Do the people making them have no marketing nous?
I can't see how they can be a particularly complicated thing to make, once you've set up to do it, and I don't imagine that chimney work is an uncommon problem.

To a degree, this is all SEP: I'm not going to be doing it and she doesn't listen to my advice at the best of times, but it does seem to me to be a fairly simple problem with a fairly simple solution, and I am surprised that nobody is on top of it by now... I realise that chimneys are a pretty modern invention, but even so... Confused
Gervase

As you have the nous and the marketing skills that these lazy, good-for-nothing scaffolders seem to lack, I'll await the news of your first million with interest. County4x4

1000 buys you an ally tower which will get you to gutter level, maybe higher - then what? If you add a platform onto roof you run the risk of pushing tower over.
I reckon the tower goes high enough, and why not bolt it to the side of the house to avoid pushing it over?
Quote:
You can hire specialised chimney scaffolds. They hang off ridge like a roof ladder but come with handrails and platforms. Hard to find, expensive to hire and hassle to erect.

Why is that then?
Do the people making them have no marketing nous?
I can't see how they can be a particularly complicated thing to make, once you've set up to do it, and I don't imagine that chimney work is an uncommon problem.

To a degree, this is all SEP: I'm not going to be doing it and she doesn't listen to my advice at the best of times, but it does seem to me to be a fairly simple problem with a fairly simple solution, and I am surprised that nobody is on top of it by now... I realise that chimneys are a pretty modern invention, but even so... Confused

I don't think it's complicated or a problem at all. There are several well known companies offering chimney scaffolds and access systems of various types - they're not "hard to find" at all. They may be harder to find on a hire basis, as perhaps the majority of the public will consider that chimney work is probably a job best left to the trade, and so hire firms will not consider them a good investment.

Andy
onemanband

I don't think it's complicated or a problem at all. There are several well known companies offering chimney scaffolds and access systems of various types - they're not "hard to find" at all. They may be harder to find on a hire basis, as perhaps the majority of the public will consider that chimney work is probably a job best left to the trade, and so hire firms will not consider them a good investment.

Andy[/quote]
you can find anything on the net but as you say no hire firms hold them - I've tried half a dozen.
They do have their uses but if you consider hire costs, extra labour to assemble, limited SWL and limited flexability ,tubular scaffold is often the better option.
From a trade point of view I could employee somebody for 2 days to assist in erection and dismantling an ally system, and then passing stuff onto the roof ...or .....I could phone the scaffs, they'll erect platforms exactly where I need them, I carry out my job with minimal risk and maximum efficiency, scaffs dismantle and job is done for similar cost
Hairyloon

As you have the nous and the marketing skills that these lazy, good-for-nothing scaffolders seem to lack, I'll await the news of your first million with interest.
If I had any marketing skill, I could be running the world by now, and it is the good-for-nothing roofers that I have issues with, not the scaffolders.
onemanband

I thought the original post was "wandering about alternative access" .
I guess we've established that your no-good lazy roofers are not taking the mickey wanting 700 plus 2 days labour.
Yes its incompetant not to have suggested chimney repoint before but I doubt you've got any comeback . Maybe if they replaced the roof unnecessarily and didnt address the real leak there may be some redress - but how do you prove?
Dont know if you got other issues with the roof work but I guess the best you can hope for is to get them to drop labour charge
vegplot

Is there any chance insurance will cover the cost? Hairyloon

Is there any chance insurance will cover the cost?
Very unlikely.
dpack

tube is best Hairyloon

Apparently they've had a deal... Thank duck for that. 12Bore

But surely, this only happens in Wigan, on the second Tuesday of the month?
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