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Rob R

Coal free Britain

Britain gets no power from coal for 'first time on record'

Quote:
Britain generated no electricity from coal on Tuesday morning for what is believed to be the first time since the 19th century, in a major milestone in the decline of the polluting power source.

National Grid confirmed that none of Britain’s coal stations were running between midnight and 4am.
Nick

I read that, and it made me wonder. Is it sensible? I mean, it's going to happen as we stop burning coal/oil, but there must be big coal fires going to run power stations. Did we really turn them off for four hours? Don't they take about a billion hours to turn on and off?
Behemoth

No coal was burned to generate electricity. Plenty will have been burned to maintain stand-by. I guess.
Rob R

There's plenty of people saying similar things, but it is the first time it's happened (apparently), which must be progress.
Ty Gwyn

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/10/breakdowns-force-national-grid-to-issue-power-supply-crunch-aler/

Now,that is progress for you.
jema

Once mines close they cannot be reopened.
Progress would have investment in cleaner coal and a planned transition, e.g. not flipping to the next most short term profitable energy source.
Mistress Rose

I would agree with that Jema. It also seems that there are too many aging power stations and not enough investment to make sure that other power, ideally renewable, but of any sort, is available. While I strongly believe in being at least partly self sufficient, not everyone has that luxury and may rely upon electricity.
Nick

Power clearly was available tho. The lights didn't go off.
Mistress Rose

They always have several power stations on standby so that the lights don't go out Nick. It is a marvel of planning to keep the electricity going, and those dealing with it are definitely the unsung heroes of the system, so if any of you are reading this thread; Thank you.
dpack

imported wood pellet is cheaper than imported coal and the more modern solid fuel power plants are multi fuel capable.?

low demand so low need of solid fuel capacity.?

low prices for oil/gas so those running at max.?

a good greenwashing headline even if it is true for only a few hours

iirc solid fuel plants can be run on a minimum burn (with the turbines off line)and stoked up fairly quickly to produce enough steam to make leccy but take a while to warm up from cold if the fire is out so they may have been burning coal but not making leccy from the heat.
Ty Gwyn

Wood pellet maybe cheaper,but they burn more than the equivalent tonnage of coal,

Regarding cheaper oil and gas at present,if this new carbon tax goes through even these will be taxed higher like coal and will be fazed out,and that is going to be an interesting future.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/14/the-fifth-carbon-budget---the-most-insane-act-passed-by-parliame
Shane

For a carbon tax to be successful, it needs to be globally applied and rigidly policed. If it's brought in across the UK in isolation, all our energy-intensive businesses will close down overnight (or require heavy government subsidies), and we'll end up importing the products that they produce from countries that don't have a carbon tax.
Mistress Rose

Well you don't expect politicians to work that out do you Shane? Anyway they want to get rid of what heavy industry we have as it doesn't fit in with their policies.

It seems daft importing wood chip for several reasons. First it is bulky and as Ty Gwyn says, has a lower calorific value than coal. Secondly the risk of importing pests and diseases is high. This is coming mainly from the US where they have several nasties we definitely don't want, and thirdly, it is very wasteful if fuel transporting something like that; probably uses as much fossil fuel as it saves.

To me the most sensible route is to use the most efficient coal power stations using British coal and work hard at developing renewable energy production, but that would be too easy.
Rob R

For a carbon tax to be successful, it needs to be globally applied and rigidly policed. If it's brought in across the UK in isolation, all our energy-intensive businesses will close down overnight (or require heavy government subsidies), and we'll end up importing the products that they produce from countries that don't have a carbon tax.


That is the problem for most of the pro-EU points being made recently, we've exported much of our environment, wildlife & human rights issues.
Shane

To me the most sensible route is to use the most efficient coal power stations using British coal...
Unfortunately, the government recently withdrew the 1bn quid they'd set aside for CCS research Tavascarow

Once mines close they cannot be reopened.
Progress would have investment in cleaner coal and a planned transition, e.g. not flipping to the next most short term profitable energy source. That's my thinking as well. Drax is being fuelled with imported wood chip harvested from sensitive environments elsewhere in the world because it's cheaper than harvesting the low value plantation growth we have here in the UK.
Sitka Spruce & Larch plantations have low economic value, little habitat value, but harvesting costs are higher.
That is still destruction but habitat instead of climate.
Tavascarow

For a carbon tax to be successful, it needs to be globally applied and rigidly policed. If it's brought in across the UK in isolation, all our energy-intensive businesses will close down overnight (or require heavy government subsidies), and we'll end up importing the products that they produce from countries that don't have a carbon tax. That's the same argument politicians use for nuclear weapons.
You are right, there is plenty of evidence that we have exported our carbon generation abroad but I see it from a different perspective.
With low energy technology & advances in renewable storage it's possible now to power all the homes in the UK with renewable energy.
Heavy industry may still need power from coal or nuclear but the savings increased renewable generation would bring to the planet would be large.
Yesterday (apparently) Germany generated 100% of their power from renewables.
Germany isn't exactly a backward economy with little industry. Wink
Tavascarow

Heavy industry in the UK hasn't been sacrificed on the altar of climate change but the altar of economics.
Our heavy industry has been sold to foreign competitors who have then closed shop & moved the business where production costs are lower.
That was happening a long time before reducing carbon emissions was in the political sphere.
Rob R


Yesterday (apparently) Germany generated 100% of their power from renewables.
Germany isn't exactly a backward economy with little industry. Wink

Isn't it largely via maize grown for AD, though?
Tavascarow


Yesterday (apparently) Germany generated 100% of their power from renewables.
Germany isn't exactly a backward economy with little industry. Wink

Isn't it largely via maize grown for AD, though? I don't know.
That's why I bracketed apparently.
Rob R

I saw it elsewhere but Monbiot says so. Tavascarow

I saw it elsewhere but Monbiot says so. I agree with him.
I know Germany has embraced solar more than the UK but don't have a clue how much of their "renewable" is from cultivation.
We (as in UK) need to get all sewerage treatment plants to have bio-digesters installed.
I personally wouldn't use the by product on food crops because there are too many contaminants & many of them nasty. But even so the waste is much more benign than just screening & liming before sending it out to sea which is IIRC what happens down here.
Ty Gwyn

Yesterday (apparently) Germany generated 100% of their power from renewables.
Germany isn't exactly a backward economy with little industry.

I noticed this post of your`s Tav,and instantly wondered what Germany was doing with its vast amounts of Lignite it mines from it`s huge opencasts,which were expanded up until 2 yrs ago with new power plants built alongside,

I failed to find any info after 2014 on the web,it`s most likely my thick internet skills,or could it be possible the info is being hid ,on purpose?
Mistress Rose

Sorry Rob, but I don't think our environment, wildlife & human rights issues are being exported, rather that they are being enforced by the EU because our present government would get rid of them as soon as turning round if they could. It seems Boris made an idiot of himself on employment yesterday which seems to indicate that he would reduce safeguards on employment law for one thing given half a chance.

Ty Gwyn, no we don't hear about the lignite power generation in Germany, but they may well keep those on standby in the same way as our coal stations are in the UK. It takes longer to run up a coal station, so they may have those in reserve for winter or planned heavy usage periods.
Tavascarow

I did read about a large number of protesters shutting down (for a while) one of the largest lignite mines in Germany a couple of days ago.
“here and no further”.
Quote:
The protesters achieved their goal of stopping the open-cast mine's 220-metre-long bucket-wheel excavators.

“These coalfields pose an existential threat to humanity, which is why our movements need to step in once again and shut them down,” according to writer and activist Naomi Klein, quoted in The Guardian.
vegplot

cleaner coal

which is quite different from clean coal.
Nick

Yesterday (apparently) Germany generated 100% of their power from renewables.
Germany isn't exactly a backward economy with little industry.

I noticed this post of your`s Tav,and instantly wondered what Germany was doing with its vast amounts of Lignite it mines from it`s huge opencasts,which were expanded up until 2 yrs ago with new power plants built alongside,

I failed to find any info after 2014 on the web,it`s most likely my thick internet skills,or could it be possible the info is being hid ,on purpose?

http://www.energypost.eu/german-lignite-accord-will-take-lot-get-lignite-germany-let-alone-europe/
Ty Gwyn

Thank`s Nick,
I found a similar one last night from 2015,but nothing more up to date to show that Germany has cut its Lignite use.
vegplot

http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/may/18/portugal-runs-for-four-days-straight-on-renewable-energy-alone?CMP=share_btn_tw Rob R

Sorry Rob, but I don't think our environment, wildlife & human rights issues are being exported, rather that they are being enforced by the EU because our present government would get rid of them as soon as turning round if they could.

Don't be sorry, just don't be wrong. Is the EU isn't enforcing them on imports of all the stuff that crosses EU borders up to the same environmental, wildlife and human rights as those produced here? If not we're exporting it.
Mistress Rose

I don't think the EU alone are doing this. Do you really think if we left that the British government would do any better? I rather think they would relax all the rules rather than try to enforce restrictions on imports from countries that have lower level rules than us. Most of them wouldn't know the environment if it came up and hit them in the face, and some of them would like to get out of the European Court of Human Rights.

I can't seem to get links at the moment, so will have to look at that later.
Rob R

Much of the in campaign is about trade getting harder and more expensive, unless they're lying, in which case that doesn't bode well. The current government is also electing to stay in and I would hope that any future governments we vote in would be capable of running our own country. The National Trust is having to give away a farm to get someone to farm it right - not all EU regs are bad but neither would they all be repealed but at least we would have the ability to tailor them to be practical so that it might become easier to manage . Tavascarow

Much of the in campaign is about trade getting harder and more expensive, unless they're lying, in which case that doesn't bode well. The current government is also electing to stay in and I would hope that any future governments we vote in would be capable of running our own country. The National Trust is having to give away a farm to get someone to farm it right - not all EU regs are bad but neither would they all be repealed but at least we would have the ability to tailor them to be practical so that it might become easier to manage . The NT giving their farm rent free has nothing to do with trade & everything to do with how environmentally sensitive the site is.
They don't want any conventional sheep farmer but one who's in tune with the environment & understands the extra work involved in farming such a rare & easily damaged site.
You know this as well as you are in a similar situation.
I've yet to hear anything from the Brexit campaign that convinces me the environment will be safer if we leave.
Quite the contrary.
Rob R

Much of the in campaign is about trade getting harder and more expensive, unless they're lying, in which case that doesn't bode well. The current government is also electing to stay in and I would hope that any future governments we vote in would be capable of running our own country. The National Trust is having to give away a farm to get someone to farm it right - not all EU regs are bad but neither would they all be repealed but at least we would have the ability to tailor them to be practical so that it might become easier to manage . The NT giving their farm rent free has nothing to do with trade & everything to do with how environmentally sensitive the site is.
They don't want any conventional sheep farmer but one who's in tune with the environment & understands the extra work involved in farming such a rare & easily damaged site.
You know this as well as you are in a similar situation.
I've yet to hear anything from the Brexit campaign that convinces me the environment will be safer if we leave.
Quite the contrary.

Those requirements are in no way connected to need to give it away. Such sites developed out of trade, much more local back then, of course.
Tavascarow

Much of the in campaign is about trade getting harder and more expensive, unless they're lying, in which case that doesn't bode well. The current government is also electing to stay in and I would hope that any future governments we vote in would be capable of running our own country. The National Trust is having to give away a farm to get someone to farm it right - not all EU regs are bad but neither would they all be repealed but at least we would have the ability to tailor them to be practical so that it might become easier to manage . The NT giving their farm rent free has nothing to do with trade & everything to do with how environmentally sensitive the site is.
They don't want any conventional sheep farmer but one who's in tune with the environment & understands the extra work involved in farming such a rare & easily damaged site.
You know this as well as you are in a similar situation.
I've yet to hear anything from the Brexit campaign that convinces me the environment will be safer if we leave.
Quite the contrary.

Those requirements are in no way connected to need to give it away. Such sites developed out of trade, much more local back then, of course. They want it farmed in a certain way, probably organic. Offering it at virtually zero rent has ensured it's been publicised far & wide. I've seen links to it all over facebook & other social media.
They will get thousands of applicants & will have the pick of the bunch.
Also lots of good PR.
They haven't given it away the terms are for a set period & no doubt if the successful applicants make a go of it the rent will rise.
Local councils used to own many farms & let them on a reduced rent to enable young farmers to get their toe in the door.
Obviously not this extreme, but as I said it's a very vulnerable easily damaged habitat that requires someone special.
Letting it at virtually zero rent will ensure they get that/those person/people they need.
Rob R

Not every Welsh hill farm has to be let for so little, and there are of course elements of all the points you've listed, but there are also many points that you have omitted about the effect of the market. Tavascarow

Not every Welsh hill farm has to be let for so little, and there are of course elements of all the points you've listed, but there are also many points that you have omitted about the effect of the market. I'm not saying they should be.
This case is unique & has no relation to EU trade or "a coal free Britain."
If you think I've omitted something please share.
Smile
Mistress Rose

I don't think staying in or exiting the EU will have much effect on the market. If we leave, then either we will have to very quickly forge new trade links, or we will have virtually no market. We will be competing with countries like China that don't have the same environmental or animal care rules that we do. They could very easily flood this country with cheap food, and unless people look more closely than thay have in the past, bankrupt most British famers.

Yes, the EU agricultural policy is a one size fits nothing, but at least it does contain some safeguards for both animals and the environment. Sadly, most of the Brexiteers, as I said before, wouldn't know the envirnonment if it came up and slapped them in the face.

As for the NT farm, it is sad that they can't employ someone to farm it the correct way rather than hoping someone can make a go of it, all be it that they have the advantage, at least initially of virtually no rent.
Ty Gwyn

We are already competing with China swamping the market with cheap produce,look what`s happened to the steel industry in part,

Regarding safeguards of animals by being in the EU,look how some treat their`s in Europe,pig`s still in crate`s and tethered,bird`s still in old type battery cages,

If that is a level playing field,sooner were out the better,and I live with the environment.
Mistress Rose

The fact some EU countries don't apply the rules as strictly as the UK is not the fault of the EU. The main problem we have in that case is that people 'want' high welfare standards, but aren't willing to pay for them. The fact the welfare standards are there, and supposed to be applied across the EU if the relavant point.

Yes, we are suffering from dumping by China, but it was our govenment that apparantly prevented the EU from applying tarrifs.
dpack

fossil and nuke freeportugal

way to go,the uk might have a higher population density and less sun but we do have more rain,wind, gravity and coastline.
Rob R

The fact some EU countries don't apply the rules as strictly as the UK is not the fault of the EU.

No, but the fact that we can't refuse the stuff coming into (or going out of) our country certainly is.
Tavascarow

The fact some EU countries don't apply the rules as strictly as the UK is not the fault of the EU.

No, but the fact that we can't refuse the stuff coming into (or going out of) our country certainly is. But we can.
All food sold is labelled with country of origin.
If people don't care that's not the fault of the EU.
If consumers stop buying it they will stop sending it.
It's called freedom of choice.

& the UK isn't Mr Squeaky clean when it comes to applying some EU rules.
Human rights & the environment the main ones.
Rob R

The fact some EU countries don't apply the rules as strictly as the UK is not the fault of the EU.

No, but the fact that we can't refuse the stuff coming into (or going out of) our country certainly is. But we can.
All food sold is labelled with country of origin.
If people don't care that's not the fault of the EU.
If consumers stop buying it they will stop sending it.
It's called freedom of choice.

& the UK isn't Mr Squeaky clean when it comes to applying some EU rules.
Human rights & the environment the main ones.

Usually I'd be right behind you on that one (consumer choice) but the issues we're seeing at the moment in the dairy trade (and other agricultural commodities) isn't the physical movement of produce causing the price to go down. To a degree it is caused by too much production in the UK but mostly the price is dictated by the fact that there is a much bigger over supply in Europe. UK dairy farmers could cut back to attempt to raise the price but the supply would be filled by countries such as Ireland and Poland who are both increasing.

The UK isn't perfect, of course not, but if we're talking about general trends, we do tend to be early adopters of advances. I'm all for many of the protections we have, but the way the EU works can be, as Mistress Rose says, one size fits noone.
Ty Gwyn

The fact some EU countries don't apply the rules as strictly as the UK is not the fault of the EU. The main problem we have in that case is that people 'want' high welfare standards, but aren't willing to pay for them. The fact the welfare standards are there, and supposed to be applied across the EU if the relavant point.

Yes, we are suffering from dumping by China, but it was our govenment that apparantly prevented the EU from applying tarrifs.

The banning of pigs in crates in the UK was 1999,it was not due to start in Europe till 2005,and some countries 10 yrs later had still not applied,

On the steel tariffs I agree,Osbourne and his rail buying spree to China for HS2 could not be faultered by slapping tariffs on Chinese steel,god forbid,but we also get large tonnages of European steel imported into the UK.

EU carbon emissions directives,it seems to be,Do as I say,Not as I do,
Well in Germany`s case anyway.
Mistress Rose

The Portugese renewable run of several days is really good. Perhaps a bit more encouragement in the UK rather than going for the fracking option?

I don't know what the answer is with milk Rob. I think most people buy British milk as liquid milk, but the others sneak into everything else. I suspect they would even if we left the EU.

Ty Gwyn, we were probably ahead in the pig crate thing because that is what the British population said they wanted-then continued to by pork and bacon from countries that still use crates because it is cheaper.
Rob R

The answer, with both pork & milk, is to put equal standards on imports as home produced goods. This is not guaranteed by leaving the EU but the opposite is guaranteed by staying in. Many of the comments in favour of the EU are based upon our current government, a short sighted view for a long term decision. Hairyloon

The fact some EU countries don't apply the rules as strictly as the UK is not the fault of the EU...
I think it is... unless you mean that we have misinterpreted the rules to make them more strict.
Otherwise, who's fault is it if an organisation does not enforce its rules if not the organisation?
Rob R

The fact some EU countries don't apply the rules as strictly as the UK is not the fault of the EU...
I think it is... unless you mean that we have misinterpreted the rules to make them more strict.
Otherwise, who's fault is it if an organisation does not enforce its rules if not the organisation?

I took it to mean that we (UK) should lower our standards to match those in the EU. And, of course, where we are lowest it is down to other countries to lower their standards. Not an approach I agree with.
Tavascarow

The answer, with both pork & milk, is to put equal standards on imports as home produced goods. This is not guaranteed by leaving the EU but the opposite is guaranteed by staying in. Many of the comments in favour of the EU are based upon our current government, a short sighted view for a long term decision. What I fear for the food sector if we leave is the farther we move from the EU the nearer we move to the USA.
USA food standards are abysmal compared to the EU. Also their levels of industrialisation will mean competition will be harder on the British meat producers.
Fresh milk would probably be safe but beef & pork are very big business over there.
TTIP if it's allowed will cripple mainstream farms & food standards in the shops will plummet IMHO.
& there's more resistance to TTIP in the EU than there is here in the UK.
Both camps, in & out seem to want it.
But as I said earlier "this has nothing to do with a coal free Britain."
Laughing
Rob R

Which just goes to show that the whole of the EU debate is rooted in gut feelings, not evidence. None of us really know the effect of in or out. But I'm predicting a narrow 'in' win on June 23rd. Tavascarow

Which just goes to show that the whole of the EU debate is rooted in gut feelings, not evidence. None of us really know the effect of in or out. But I'm predicting a narrow 'in' win on June 23rd. Most of the resistance to TTIP is coming from the Socialist & Green groups within the EU parliament.
Thankfully the EU MEPs are elected proportionally.
We have a first past the post system that means we have Tory MPs sitting that only received a few thousand votes, & one Green MP when the party received over a million votes nationwide.
The UK electoral system isn't designed to represent the electorate but to maintain the status quo.
Keeping the power in the hands of wealthy landowners & big business.
UK democracy is a myth, regardless how you vote.
Mistress Rose

You are right Tavascarow, this has nothing to do directly with a coal free Britain, but does indirectly.

HL, I mean that the UK tends to embellish the standards, although some countries do let people take a long time to implement new legislation.

Rob, to some extent I think we have to consider the current government. If it were green, forward thinking as far as the environment, animal welfare, human rights and fairness for all were concerned, I think fewer of us would see the EU as a safeguard against government excesses. Yes, we have to look at the long term, but having these things brought into current focus makes us look at relationships between the British people, the British government and the EU in a different light.

In the case of renewable energy, and hence a coal, or gas free Britain, this govenment is trying to go for the fossil fuel option.
Nick

Which just goes to show that the whole of the EU debate is rooted in gut feelings, not evidence. None of us really know the effect of in or out. But I'm predicting a narrow 'in' win on June 23rd.

You know we're living the reality of the in right now?
Hairyloon

Which just goes to show that the whole of the EU debate is rooted in gut feelings, not evidence. None of us really know the effect of in or out. But I'm predicting a narrow 'in' win on June 23rd.

You know we're living the reality of the in right now?
We are, but we do not know how much of how we are living is related to being in.
Rob R

Which just goes to show that the whole of the EU debate is rooted in gut feelings, not evidence. None of us really know the effect of in or out. But I'm predicting a narrow 'in' win on June 23rd.

You know we're living the reality of the in right now?

Yep, and it's shit. But for most it's pretty good, hence my prediction.
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