| Archive for Downsizer For an ethical approach to consumption |
| Treacodactyl |
Deliveries and paymentsI thought it would help new and existing traders if people who already sell products said how they arrange deliveries of items and payment?Do people recommend any type of delivery or specific company, are there any specific problems you've encountered? As a customer I often request a certain delivery company as they have been much more reliable than others. I'd also be interested in finding out what methods of payment people us and any problems or tips you have. Do you tend to wait for the money to clear or do you trust your customers? |
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| jema |
A little of an oblique point in relation to the question, but I know Ken from arkwights home brew who sells online, gets quite a lot of very dubious foreign "orders". He has not accepted any iffy orders that I know of, and from what he has mentioned it has always seemed fairly obvious that these orders are very dodgy.
But for people thinking of selling stuff it is as well to be aware that there are a lot of people out there ready to take you for a ride 
So making sure funds are cleared seems vital. Of course one of the core purposes of downsizer was setting up a trading environment where as everyone had a reputation to lose on the forums, trading would be safer, as all transactions would be open to comment from traders and customers alike  But even here I would not want to imply any form of guarentee that everyone will always be honest and reliable, and would hence advise standard prudence when it comes to payment arrangements.
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| RoryD |
A few things;
Delivery wise; 90% of our product goes out in a box that is the same size as a video- so it goes through peoples letterboxes. Which in turn means that we can use Royal Mail, who have delivered 99% of our packages sucessfully. We use parcelforce again for the bigger stuff too. Until you've got a significant enough volume of product going out, and can negotiate a pick-up service with an alternative company, this is probably the best way. Payment wise; I was recommended to go through Worldpay (RBS) by our website designers, and they have been fine. Though a little pricey to set up (£450.00,) and you don't get paid for 4 weeks, its still a stable and secure mechanism for working. I think Jema is/was recommending Paypal for the payment mechanism, and I'm not sure of the relative merits. I've posted before about the idea of people having a section on the Saltpepper website, through which they can sell their own product. This might help people starting out with the online payment thing- and give people a leg up. It would involve having a link from your own page through to the right page on my website, then using my payment system. There are lots of issues with this- and a lot of trust required (from both parties) but if it helps someone get started then the offer is there. PM me if you are interested. |
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| Rob R |
Re: dodgy "orders"
Since setting up the online shop part of our website, we have had a couple of requests for an 'order' from Nigeria via e-mail (you know where they go) so it is good to have a policy when it comes to overseas orders. As most of our stuff will be not suitable for export anyway, that won't be too much of a problem, but of the other products I am opting for an 'overseas at our dicression approach'. Re: Delivery We use a combination of the Royal Mail (never any problems) & Amtrak (one incidence of a non-pick up, luckily was on a Wednesday) for next day. I'd be interested to hear what others use though, as on some website you see ridiculously low rates for delivery that I think I must be getting a poor deal with my present arrangements (or more likely their markup is so much on the product that the delivery is subsidised). Re: Payments I've yet to use Paypal receipts for business use, but the one big advantage is the lack of set up costs. Due to the nature of the things we have been selling, it has been mainly cash or cheque. I like the idea of direct bank transfers via internet banking, but I'd be interested to know if giving your account number & sort code out code be a potential security risk? |
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| jema |
I do not think there is a single right answer on payment methods. I recommended paypal for Rob, and will quite probably switch arkwrights to paypal in the next few months.
Paypal offers reasonable rates, a reasonable interface and no set up costs, monthly free or need for a secure site. My own next enterprise will probably use 2checkout, which offers low setup costs, fairly appalling transactions charges  , no monthly free, but a more flexible interface for recurring billing.
There are other options, but a lot of them do need the secure site certificate which is £12 a month or so before you start. When you are running ecommerce all these charges can add up. |
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| Jb |
I am in the process of setting up a demo online sales site for our company and was going to use Paypal for the demo because of its low setup overhead but not recommend it for the live sales site as I always have the impression that 'powered by paypal' is a synonym for 'not quite a real company'.
Is that just me or does anyone else get a better impression of security from non paypal sites? |
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| Bugs |
As a customer, yep, I get that impression, I don't have and don't want a paypal account and I will not buy from a site if it makes you sign up for it - however some sites can make it work like Worldpay in that you just make a credit card payment without having your details retained etc.
I have used a number of online shops that use Worldpay and found it v easy and quick. |
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| RoryD |
I agree. I think that the perception is wrong, but a customers perception is your reality. |
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| jema |
I have no security qualms about paypal and you do not have to sign up to paypal to pay. I agree though that it does not offer the "best" impression. As such it is better for the sort of low volume site like Robs. But I think as time goes on, people will get more used to seeing paypal shops and that slight bias against them will reduce. |
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| Rob R |
I'd be interested to know where the idea that Paypal isn't secure has come from? In the context of using Paypal for ebay transactions, I have heard many people who won't use Paypal & prefer to send cash or cheque for ebay yet I have never had nor heard of any problems using it as either a buyer or seller. |
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| joanne |
The thing with Paypal is definately to do with snob value - Its a proven secure system handling millions of payments every day
I think its alot like the attitude towards Open Source software used to be - somehow because its cheap (or free) its worthless and tacky. To be honest I prefer to use paypal its simple, its easy and I can let my kids have an account each and put money in there for them to spend on the internet without worrying about credit card fraud or other such problems. There is a wealth of Developer info out there on how to use Paypal - there is even a sandbox environment for testing out payment systems which I'm making use of at the moment whilst I testing my Oscommerce shopping basket for the DDTC website - although some of it can be confusing it is there if you look hard enough. World Pay and its similar competitors are fine if you have high volume of turnover and a real budget to spend but if you are a small business or only sell occaisonally every penny is needed Joanne |
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| Rob R |
This, I guess, goes back to what we were saying on another topic- free (or cheap) gives an impression of inferiority, like the Mambo system- there's no reason not to use it because it is free, but the perception it gives is often the problem, not the product. |
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| RoryD |
Our shop is built with open source software, (CRE Loaded,) and should do us for a while. Proper geeks (no offence intended) will recognise this, but to the normal customer it looks ok. I think you can do some great things with Mambo too, but the payment section of the site is so critical, its crucial that the customer has 100% confidence with which to make the sale.
Agree totally with Jo and Jema's view that Paypal is best for small volumes, with committed customers. However, for us giving a customer a reason not to make a sale (even if it is undeserved worries about Paypal,) is what we are trying to avoid. |
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| farmwoody |
We use paypal through our website and have never had a problem. Some customers would prefer not to and we ask them to send a cheque. If the customer is a complete stranger (i.e. not someone I know through a website, I could easily 'embarrass' someone that I knew that way), I always wait for the cheque to clear.
Repeat orders for pork ready in Dec are coming in already, I know when paypal tell me that a deposit has been paid! I'm sure that there are better systems but it works for us and as for it being viewed as 'unprofessional' well, we grow fab pork and happen to sell our excess, 'professional' retailers we aint!!! 
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| Rob R |
Although this is not exactly anything to do with this subject, but is kind of related- ebay:
I didn't use ebay at first myself because I thought there was some danger in the kind of transactions that go on on there, as it is built on trust (not unlike this very website) I think it works as long as you follow the 'system'. The items that are dodgy & may be unlikely to arrive from there are not exactly hard to spot. I view it like any transaction, the buyer always has to use every thing available to him/her to decide wether the seller is genuine, including the type of product they are selling, the feedback rating (as well as the total number of feedback) and the item description. I think if you are careful, like anything in life, you will not get stung too many times (and rarely, if ever, if you follow all the common buying rules). |
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| jema |
Indeed an enormous array of pretty heavy issues
I for one do not feel we are quite ready to spring board quite that distance yet. But I do see the idea as being entierly in keeping with the underlying ethos of the site. To me I think the key question would be the economics. It is a very big issue as I see it for a lot of very small traders, just how much overhead there is in running an online shop. I have expressed similar points about hosting and whether we should get involved there? But a downsizer shop would replace one set of overheads with another. We might be able to generate the volume of trade to get a better charge rate on credit cards for our participants, but unless someone can make a convincing case for the day to day maintanance of a shop being viable on a volenteer basis, then we would have to pass on charges. I am inclined to the belief therefore, that we would need to be several times bigger and more active in the trading area, for this one to fly. Remember though, we are several times bigger than we were 6 months ago! |
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| Treacodactyl |
I've split this thread into another one on downsizer shop ideas here: http://forum.downsizer.net/viewtopic.php?p=89716 | ||||||
| barefoot_boo |
Gettting back to the original topic of payments and deliveries, thought you might be interested in these data sheets which provide comprehensive details about the various payment methods out there for accepting payments online.
http://www.electronic-payments.co.uk/product_data.jsp Personally, for either: a) those just starting out, b) those with a low volume of sales, c) those with low value sales, I always recommend to my clients that they accept Paypal and Personal Cheque and possibly also Nochex, dependent on the target market - i.e. for some reason many WAHM's tend to prefer Nochex to Paypal. For the vast majority of my clients (small business', new traders, wahm's) Paypal is ideal for their needs. Once online sales have moved up a notch, either in terms of volume or value, I recommend adding Worldpay or Protx (whilst still keeping Paypal/Cheque). |
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| jema |
Very useful link that
In the past I have considered secpay as well as the ones you mention. But I have no actual experience with them, but the rates looked quite good. |
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| footprints |
Re orders: we don't accept any outside the UK regardless of size and how tempting they are. Re Delivery: we use City Link. Cost wise average, depot very local, damaged deliveries yes. All are guilty of playing football with my goods. Difficulty getting damages from them. (virtually impossible) Re Payments: Used to use Worldpay. Cost about £160 per yr. Fat commission on each sale. Held my money for thirty days min. I use Paypal and the money is instantly transferrable to my account. Average comission charges. I have also signed up to Nochex . Re: bank transfer dangers? I deal with people a lot bigger than myself and they appear to be happy with the bank transfer system. I suppose everything is open to abuse, but.... nothing ventured...??? Regards Footprints |
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| footprints |
Lots of interesting things here. From my own point of view as a "trader" I would be quite happy to pay for sales generated by the efforts of the good people of Downsizer, a sort of commision. I would however be very reluctant to pay "upfront" for the promise of increased sales figures. Have to say, been there,done that. Pay for traffic? means nowt! Send me a customer that buys, and I will be happy to pay. is that unreasonable? |
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| jema |
I think I can say without fear of contradiction that making people pay upfront is the last road we would consider going down, at least when you are talking about a shop. The overheads of setting up any such idea would be bourne by the site. We started out with the idea of free listings for traders, and whilst we are growing and liable to move in somewhat unexpected directions, the ethos that we are made up in part by ethical small traders, and are here to meet their needs, is not going to change. |
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| Anna-marie |
Just a note (and perhaps a word of warning!!) about Parcelforce as a delivery company.
In early June of this year, I bought two "Igloo" dog kennels from two different sellers on e-bay. I arranged for Parcleforce's 48hr delivery, on the internet. The first kennel arrived after five days. 
The second one hasn't arrived at all. 
I have spent three and a half months, e-mailing and telephoning Parcelforce, who have insisted on my cancelling each delivery and re-arranging it for a further date. They have now decided that the kennel is too large  for them to deliver and needs to be broken down into components. - It is a pre-formed plastic item, and cannot be broken down. 
The seller and I have now given up - our patience has totally run out, and we have agreed that she re-list it on e-bay. Parcelforce have been absolutely no help in this matter. They do not satisfactorily answer any e-mails, and most of their telephone options are pre-recorded/voice-activated messages. The only time I have been able to speak to a human being was if arranging a new delivery!!!
This has been a traumatic experience and I am now reduced to sitting in a corner, rocking backwards and forwards, crooning gently to myself 
Beware if relying on Parcelforce to deliver fresh meat - especially if the best that they can do is to deliver it after five days when 48hr delivery has been requested.
OK, I've said enough - back to my corner!!! |
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| jema |
ParcelfArce is soemthing they are often known as.... | ||||||
| Treacodactyl |
Where I am Parcelforce are about the only company that seems to turn up. I've had deliveries that have been sent out by the supplier and never turned up from at least two other companies.
There seems to be at least two stages, probably more, with the companies and each regional center seems to differ so it seems very hard to choose. Also round here some delivery companies sub-contract out to all sorts of dodgy drivers with their own vans, no ids or paperwork - and that's for high value items. 
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| Rob R |
I think perhaps they pay more attention to their 'larger' customers. I wouldn't even consider PF for urgent items like meat (if at all), they certainly weren't that helpful when I was looking at delivery companies. |
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| Jb |
I'd go with parcelfarce being their more accurate moniker.
I have had parcels not delivered because I wasn't in and then taken to a depot in a different county at which point their policy is either "you want it, you collect it" or "we'll deliver it, but only if you pay again". They seem to have a customer service model which assumes their customers will be at their beck and call. I no longer dispatch anything by parcelfarce! |
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| Bugs |
Is this always the case? I am looking to place an order with an overseas (EU) company; their credit card payment section doesn't look secure to me (as discussed on another thread) and I suspect the bank will make a big charge for a foreign transfer. They offer a paypal mechanism (but charge 3% to cover costs) but this is only an email address, which as far as I know means I need to have a paypal account of my own in order to pay? Do many people use Paypal in this way? I am extremely reluctant to set up an account as I have yet to be convinced of its value. |
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| jema |
Follow through on the dialog and you will go to a secure site, the email address mentioned is simply the identification of the payee. e.g. If I ask you to pay to paypal@marsjupiter.com which is one of mine, then there is no way you can do this without going via a secure mechanism. |
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| Bugs |
But I would still need to register with paypal in order to do it? I can't just go to paypal's site, find a form that says "pay this person", put in the email address and go from there to a form? If I can, where?! | ||||||
| jema |
Unless they set up a donate button, I am not sure you can without signing up, but signing up is free. |
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| Bugs |
But they want an awful lot of details to sign up
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| jema |
You have lost me a bit here, as I thought your worry was processing an order and whether it was secure, as such I assume they would have a "donate" or paypal shop system set up. |
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| Bugs |
My concern is mainly that I don't like to give out too many details and I am especially careful with payment details. The shop in question is this one:
http://www.brisa.fi which I've seen a number of people use. However if you try to buy something through their credit card version, there's no sign that it is secure. And for the paypal payment they only provide an email address that I can see, details here: http://www.brisa.fi/cart/orderform/kopinfo_en.html So I'm very confused myself. They seem very pleasant (have spoken to them both by phone and email..) but don't seem to be very familiar with their site's workings. I think the company itself is fine (have seen a number of people on RC have successfully used it, and here too, I think), it is simply the handing out of my payment details that worries me, and I would prefer to pay with credit card as I feel that is an extra step of security. |
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| 2steps |
On my website and ebay I accept payment by paypal, cheque, postal order or bank transfer/deposit. For delivery I mainly just use royal mail as they are very small and light packages. I recently used http://www.postvan.com/uk/ to send a bike and had no problems | ||||||
| jema |
I see nothing to worry about, you can enter card details on an encrypted page, so why pay by paypal? | ||||||
| Treacodactyl |
Because when you try to put the order in at no point do you see the site go to a secure connection. All other sites we've ordered from you tend to go to a secure area to process the order, this one you don't. When you try and validate the certificate the link doesn't work. | ||||||
| jema |
I see now
It does seem a screw up, I was wondering if the submit button was secure, but not by the seems of it. I still personally would not give a hoot. The only problem that can occur is if the connection between you and them is being tapped for numbers. As far as I know this has never happened. There is far more risk every time your number is seen by anyone. |
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| Treacodactyl |
Thanks for checking, and I agree the chances of something going wrong seem remote. However, if we can pay by other means if we can just that paying by credit card also insures the delivery. |