| Archive for Downsizer For an ethical approach to consumption |
| Jonnyboy |
Dishwashers...Now, I don't have much of an argument on this because I make a huge mess when cooking and rarely tidy up.But the missus is putting her foor down and demands a dishwasher in the new kitchen, I'm a bit down on them from an environmental point of view but is it feasible that an 'a' rated dishwasher, properly loaded could be more efficient than heating water for three or four bowl fulls? |
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| dougal |
Having just a couple of weeks ago researched (some) model details, I can tell you that the cheap full-size "AAA" rated dishwasher chosen uses just 19 litres and a whisker over 1kwh (1 "unit" of electricity) on its 50C wash.
IMHO thats not bad at all. However, the detergent residues might be of more concern... |
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| tahir |
This discussion has been had a few times at AECB teh consensus was that it's a good thing as long as you're not using loads of water to rinse the dishes first, it's an efficient machine, it's fully loaded
Of course if you have solar/ground source water heating and can supply the dishwasher with warm water then it becomes even more efficient... |
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| Jonnyboy |
Are dishwashers plumbed into the hot and cold water like a washing machine? | ||||
| dougal |
(Edit: like most washing machines....) |
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| jema |
They mostly if not ally, have a single feed, you can generally choose to plumb it to hot or cold. If you plumb to hot the cycle is quicker, but the results are not as good. As you will always be rinsing with hot, you will be using more hot water, but then the heat source will probably be cheaper. |
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| Bugs |
I understood, as T says, that properly used they're more energy efficient than washing by hand - and somewhere I got the impression they can be more hygienic...
We've started using Ecover tablets, assume they are a bit better than Tesco's own etc, and they are good, in fact I only use half a one. Much better than their washing up liquid or clothes washing stuff. Dunno whether the salt or rinse aid are a problem though 
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| bernie-woman |
I got rid of mine because of the rinsing plates issue - we were just not using enough crockery not to rinse the plates off first and when we tried not rinsing the dishwasher started to smell really bad.
From what I understand if you rinse the plates under a running tap then you use a huge amount of water |
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| judith |
What about the environmental cost of all the extra crockery you have to buy because most of it is in the dishwasher at any given time, waiting for a full load? | ||||
| Mat S |
A single dishwasher is a daft idea because you spend vast amounts of time loading and unloading it. What you need it two dishwashers (undownsizerish I know) and you simply put dirty dishes in one, run it, use clean dishes from it and dump them in the dirty one. Run that when full and repeat. No need for shelves in the kitchen to keep plates and pots and stuff on either. Genius!
Mat |
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| jema |
Sounds wildly unlikely to work unless you use exactly the same stuff each and everyday! |
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| Mat S |
It's not an entirely serious suggestion! | ||||
| dougal |
But one I did see implemented in the "Grand Designs" house I visited last London Open House, (the one with curved glass patio doors, built around a tree with a preservation order, all entry/exit through the tiny coach house where the folk were living during the build.)
Two fancy italian "drawer-type" dishwashers, for just that very reason... 
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| jema |
I am sorry to say I can think of one or two "ready meal" households, where this arrangement might work well
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| Blue Peter |
You can buy smaller models (8 places 45cm). We find that we need to put them on about once every two days, and if you rinse in the washing up water which you still need to use (post and pans, etc.), there's not too much of a problem, Peter. |
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| northcotes4 |
I have 2 kids, and only run the dishwasher once at approx 3am in the morning, use a plug in timer. This means it is run on Economy 7 electric.
Depending on how dirty the pots and pans are which also go in to make the full load I sometimes only use the Eco cycle with just the water - no detergent or only half measure of detergent. I do not use rinseaid only white vinegar, and when have extra dirty pots etc make up to full measure with soda crystals; this is also the only time I use the rinse cycle first. This works well for me. If I didn't use the dishwasher I would be having at least 4 sink fuls of hot water every day and then the rinsing as well. |
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| tawny owl |
I never rinse anything unless it's been used for something really starchy like pasta or if there's something actually burned on. Otherwise everything gets bunged in, pans etc on the bottom, more lightly soiled stuff on top. If anything comes out with marks on, I'll wash it then, but they are few and far between. I never bother using the rinse cycle either; there are only two of us, but we still end up using it at least every 2 days. I throw in my dishcloth, scouring sponges etc as well, so I don't have to use a hot wash cycle in the washing machine for them.
If you use 3-in-1 tablets, you shouldn't need salt or rinse aid, as they're already incorporated, in much smaller amounts than if you use them separately, so that cuts down on stuff going down the drain. In fact, if you use salt with the products, you can get glass corrosion. Have a really good look round before you buy, and don't be afraid to look inside the machines. Try to get one with as much metal inside as possible - in particular, try to ensure that the filter mesh (the flat one that sits at the bottom that the cylindrical one goes into) is metal; the plastic ones perish really quickly with the heat, and if that breaks, you'll get bits of food in the washing arms and the machine won't wash properly. Smeg is a good make, and that's got a double arm on the bottom. Miele and Bosch are worth looking at too. I woudn't recommend Indesit or Candy, but maybe others have had different experiences with them. Good article here: http://money.guardian.co.uk/ethicalliving/story/0,13437,1215683,00.html |
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| Mrs Fiddlesticks |
i think its one of those trade off things. I have a dishwasher because I have better things to do than wash-up. Its run at night on economy dooda and its usually full everynight. I think it washes more hygenically and my kitchen is cleaner as a result as all dirty dishes are hidden away in it. I run a rinse and hold programe if hot to avoid pongs and have never had a problem. I do tend to bung everything in it though. It certainly helps me do more downsizery things if I know there is help with all the clearing up afterwards. So trade off. Can't win them all and don't realistically have time to do it all. I wonder why we don't question washing machines in the same way as we do dishwashers? | ||||
| dougal |
On recent machines you can program in the local water hardness. And they adjust the salt/softening to suit - even to the extent of using salt in addition to what the 3/4-in-one tablets provide. Excess salt (eg spilt when refilling), if left unattended, can/will cause corrosion of *stainless* steel (especially hardened knife blades). Not glass. The salt is used for regenerating the water softener, not for washing in salty water (thats unhelpful - try shampooing with seawater!). The tablets "salt" is actually a different means of water softening. AFAIK the glass etching that used to be common with dishwashers is down to the "detergent" mix - not for nothing do they say "avoid skin contact". I believe newer formulations are much less damaging. |
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| tawny owl |
Yup, he's right, I'm wrong! Funny how Finish denied for years that this was a problem and then brought out a 'glass protection' formula ... |
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| Róisín |
I think we don't question washing machines in the same way because we are more used to them, whereas we've probably all been brought up to handwash dishes because dishwashers didn't exist!
I'm curious about the tablets - some people seem to be saying that half a tablet will do in place of a whole. Is this only on a lightly soiled cycle? And, in much the same way as people can make their own washing detergent for the washing machine, can you make your own dishwasher detergent? |
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| jema |
I have been wondering about this myself. I wonder what the results with simple soap flakes and vingiar as rinse aid would be? |
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| Róisín |
But how to make them into tablet form? On my dishwasher, at least, there is no drawer for powder or anything like that, just a little tablety-shaped alcove with a drawer that opens a bit of the way into the wash and drops it. | ||||
| Róisín |
*don't know why that double posted*
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| Gertie |
Our little dishwasher is used every day, unfortunately last year the little thingy which opens to release the tablet broke, just stick the tablet in the cutlery basket now. It works! 
Hoorah for the dishwasher - I hated washing plates and having to dry them - purely from a hygiene point of view, of course! |
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| jema |
Our has that before, but I see no problem with putting powder in it. |
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| Róisín |
Ye are absolutely right.
*toddles off to experiment with washing powders and dishwashers* Will post how I get on! |
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| puffedpride |
Hate to pour cold water on this 'in praise of dishwashers thread', but are you accounting for the substantial initial outlay of resources and pollution in the manufacture and distribution of these things? I've read that 25-50% of a car's total lifelong environmental impact is in its production. Could dishwashers have similarly proportionate production 'costs'? If so, surely they would need to be considerably more efficient than washing up to environmentally compare well.
(People only get them extra to having the sink too, not instead of - so it is not as though you could subtract the energy cost of sink manufacture from the dishwasher's.) Oh dear.....was that last bit clear as mud??!! Anyone agree? (There is probably a thread about this already in the deepest entrails of downsizer somewhere.............) |
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| jema |
I am inclined to the view that used sensibly on the eco cycle, the issue with dishwashers pales against the use of cars, food miles and no end of other things. | ||||
| pricey |
We feed 5 adults + 3 kids every day, dishwasher is a lot more economical than 5 bowls of hot water + detergent, I've done the maths! | ||||
| pricey |
If you use 3 in 1 tablets, don't use rince aid. This clogs the pump as rince aid is in the tablet, I know this from personal experience, I have 88 machines to look after 
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| Will |
Interesting academic study here on the point where it becomes worthwhile to replace an appliance.
Depending on the method of assessment, the energy consumed in producing and distributing washing machines is suggested to be between 12 and 53% of the environmental impact of the appliance over a 15 year life. What it doesn't show is a direct comparison in energy consumption between dishwashers and hand washing. |
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| Behemoth |
Back in the 80's and early 90's dishwashers were the devils work being massively inefficient. Good models now are water and energy efficient. Their impact now is in how they are used.
Many of the two bedroomed flats we have going up everywhere around here are equiped with a family size dishwasher as part of the package even though the flat isn't built for families. So although the machine may be efficient it will be used inefficently. Taking in the whole life costs I think (but don't know) that a pressed steel bowl filled with hot water and a pair of marigolds will still have the edge. |
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| jema |
But how many people hand wash efficiently? |
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| judith |
The rate I get through Marigolds, I would probably find that a dishwasher is more cost-effective. 
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| Behemoth |
Hmm..... 
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| puffedpride |
Thanks Will for sharing about the dishwasher production costs (environmentally). It's such a wide range though...12%-53%, which makes it hard to really establish if in general handwashing still has the environmental edge (if dishwashers are efficiently used).
Did those figures also include repair and disposal impacts? Sorry to keep slapping all you dishwasher users across the face with a pair of marigolds like this 
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| Fee |
We use the ecover dishwasher tablets too, and I've found that they don't get dishes as clean as the big brand tablets, in fact, I'm getting sick of having to wash bits of muck off my stuff after it's been through the dishwasher. I'm sure they'd be fine if we did a pre-wash rinse, but I don't want to get into that habit of using more water than necessary. |
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| ele |
I live in a two person household and we have a normal (family) sized dishwasher that does get full everyday if I've been doing any amount of proper cooking
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| Will |
The range from 12% to 53% is for the same appliance (an AAB rated washing machine), calculated according to three different bases.
Based on the total electrical energy consumed over the life of the machine, from raw material extraction through production, distribution, use, maintenance and disposal, the phase up to arrival with end user is 12% of the total. If other factors such as scarcity of materials, environmental impact of extraction, pollutants created in the production process, pollutants created in use, etc, etc are included in an analysis of the whole life, the impact of the phase up to end user rises to up to 53% of the total, depending on the weighting used. The point this illustrates is that energy usage is only part of the impact of a product - arguably if entirely renewable energy sources were used, the energy impact could be considerably reduced. The aim of the study was to estimate mathematically the point at which it becomes environmentally desirable to replace an appliance - i.e. the overall impact of replacing an existing product with a new one is less than continuing to use the old one. On a purely energy based calculation (with an assumption as to how much more efficient the new appliance is) it appears that regular replacement is desirable. However if all the other environmental impact factors are taken into account, the improvement in efficiency required for replacement to be desirable is far higher, and replacement is unlikely to have a positive impact. None of this has anything to do with whether dishwashing is more or less environmentally damaging than hand washing, but it's an interesting twist on working out how to limit our impact. |
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| Behemoth |
Much of the new property round here is destined for the young professional, student, rental market. The area has gone from a vibrant community to one that supports dozens of takeaways and bars. the local small Somerfield has almost disposed of real food and sells ready miles in great piles. They even have take away counters in the supermarket. I may be wrong but I doubt that many of these machines will be used efficiently. | ||||
| jema |
We always use the economy cycle on ours, and found ecover tablets were not very good compared to just about any other tablet. |
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| tahir |
Never had a problem with Ecover tabs | ||||
| tawny owl |
Shouldn't use separate salt either, unless it's a very hard water area. Plus, it's less stuff down the drain. |