Ditch responsibility!

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dan1	Ditch responsibility! Can anyone point me to the rules/statute around who should clear ditches where they form boundaries. My understanding was that you were responsible for up to the mid point, which in practice would mean youn shared the cost of clearing. My neighbour maintains that a ditch on his side of our boundary hedge is my responsibility because my land's uphill Any pointers gratefully received! Dan
pollyanna	Whose boundary hedge is it? It will be marked on your farm map/deeds. In my experience one's neighbour always wants to deny responsibility unless it is to his advantage!
Ty Gwyn	Very unlikely its your responsibility,unless the hedge was planted after the ditch was dug, If it was,it would mean you entering his land to clean the ditch.
onemanband	I thought this was going to be a thread about being feckless. Oh well back to the grindstone. Sorry don't know about ditches.
Rob R	Very unlikely its your responsibility,unless the hedge was planted after the ditch was dug, If it was,it would mean you entering his land to clean the ditch.

That's exactly how it does work, the ditch belongs to the person who has the hedge on their side. Our neighbour owns up to the top of the ditch at our side, with the hedge on his side. In practical terms we clean the dyke out (because we make a neater job) but we should really ask him to do it.

dan1

But does anyone know where it's "written down", is there any clear guidance, or is it decided on a case by case basis?

Nick

It should be marked on your deeds.

dan1

That's a good point, Nick, and I'll try and check that. It won't, however clear up the question of whether I'm responsible of or the whole of the ditch which is downhill of my land...

Mistress Rose

It all stems from the old ditch and bank system. In fact unless otherwise stated on the deeds, your land extends to the side of the ditch furthest from you regardless of the lay of the land.

As far as keeping ditches clear, it used to be a job for the hedger and ditcher who trimmed or layed the hedge and dug out the ditch, the results being thrown up onto the roots of the hedge.

Nick

That's a good point, Nick, and I'll try and check that. It won't, however clear up the question of whether I'm responsible of or the whole of the ditch which is downhill of my land...

It's Pollyanna's point.

And it the hedge and ditch are on your land, they're yours. If they're on his land, they're his. Your deeds will show where your boundary is.

Rose, can you clarify your statement? How can everyone's land extend to the far side of the ditch? That means a ditch dividing two bits if land is owned by two people. Sounds in likely. Rob R

Rose, can you clarify your statement? How can everyone's land extend to the far side of the ditch? That means a ditch dividing two bits if land is owned by two people. Sounds in likely.

Another Rose can - it is a case of who owns the boundary, which is always the person who owns the land at the same side as the hedge. The person who owns the ditch (and therefore the hedge, because the hedge is planted on the spoil from the ditch) doesn't have to enter the neighbour's land to clean out the hedge or cut back the ditch because the ditch belongs to him/herself, not the neighbour). The matter of access only changed with the advent of mechanical diggers. Ty Gwyn

What about roadside ditches? Rob R

I find this rather fasinating and also confusing,

If water from land uphill from one property is flowing onto another property down hill,the property Uphill has the responsibility to divert the water before entering ones neighbour,therefore the ditch should be on the Uphill side of the boundary,
Well that`s how it works in Wales anyway,but it all gets complicated when farms are broken up and sold.

I dare say things are different on flatish wetlands,where the ditches/dykes are the boundaries.

Yes, you could be right on the last point but I would imagine that, on uplands, you're wanting to avoid the neighbours water entering your land? The neighbour wouldn't care, as he's getting rid of it however?

Also, you don't want water rushing straight into a dyke and taking your soil & nutrients with it, better to slow it down and filter out the soil with a hedge/bank, perhaps. Dogwalker

Same applies in this bit of Wales.

Some of my fields I'm responsible for the hedge and ditch part way and whichever neighbour the rest. It seemed odd until I saw an old survey plan from 1750-something which had some crossways hedges dividing the fields even smaller than they are now.

The only one that doesn't go by that rule is the bottom boundary which only has a stock fence and ditch on neighbours side which are both his and that's the only relatively recent boundary change.

In practise one neighbour who owns a mini digger and rents the land from the others does them all. Mistress Rose

Rob explained it better. One thing to note is that historically this has nothing to do with water management but a good way of showing a boundary. You will only know the answer in the OP case by consulting the deeds.

We have lots of ditch and bank systems going through the woods, including several that we know were divisions between different land holdings, and the most marked one, the parish boundary. We think this one dates back over 1000 years. Nick

As suggested, historical generalisations won't help. Have a look on your deeds. Rob R

The deeds might not help, depends how detailed they are, but best to check. Nick

If the deeds don't show it, then there's no definitive proof of ownership, and therefore, responsibility. They will help immensely. That's the thing about legal documents. Treacodactyl

My deeds just show a red line, which in reality would translate to a meter or so wide line on the ground and doesn't really mean much. Obviously other deeds may be more helpful but I often wonder why deeds aren't more useful. Nick

Does the text help? Mine specify borders. Treacodactyl

Nothing in the text IIRC, there's some wording on the plan but I don't know how much is legally binding. I know much of the wording was removed as the sale went on and on a couple of boundaries we just know we own them but not what they are. Rob R

Deeds, particularly if the land hasn't changed hands for a long time, often contain points of reference that have changed over time, if the ditch has been widened or silted up any reference to where the 'eastern-most bank top' is could be open to interpretation. derbyshiredowser

What about roadside ditches?

As a External planner for BT in a previous life the quickest way to establish ditch ownership is to erect a telegraph pole near it then wait for wayleave payment demands. Smile

Many roadside ditches here are clogged up and not working- wondered if the council owned verges?
But then if the bank was raised on the field side, farmer would own the ditch?

Thinking back to our property deeds years ago, they were delineated by a red line,but a short line at 90 degrees showed who owned the wall/hedge.

Yes, many roadside ditches are 'owned' by the adjacent agricultural land, rather than the road builders. Some are managed by drainage boards, in the flat areas, and some are created for the road itself, but usually in the latter case, where a new road is created, they create a french drain instead of a ditch. pollyanna

When the council replaces a ditch with a drain they don't ask the permission of the adjacent landowner, they just do it.

So who owns the ditch which becomes a drain?

Councils also accept/take responsibility for cutting roadside banks, hedges and verges and keeping drain-grids clear. That's if anybody does them. So presumably the Highways own the roads. Rob R

Highways own trunk roads & if the council doesn't own the ditch they can be legally held to account if they modify it without the owners permission (likely made to purchase it). Where council land and private land meet is defined (in East Yorkshire, at least). pollyanna

When the council arrived to culvert the ditch down the road, we weren't going to stop them as it was a job that needed doing, but I don't remember their asking permission (Pembrokeshire). Rob R

You could have stopped them though, if they were working on your private land, but regardless you still own the land up to the original boundary, although it might take more legal work to establish where the boundary is, if the point of reference has been removed in the process.

The planning process they went through may have referred to this (if they don't know the owner(s) it would have to be advertised in the local press) & you may have missed your opportunity to challenge it. Ty Gwyn

Like i said previously,outside ones boundary is not ones responsibility here in Wales,except trimming ones hedge boundaries to a public road,or a private road if shared access. dpack

i have recently had a different but similar puzzle ,my aunties drive was sliding downhill against a boundary wall to the next door drive.

the deeds were useless in determining who owned the wall but as owning the wall and having the boundary on the far face makes her garden a foot by 5 yards bigger in the part extending from the drive wall to the end wall i reckoned claim the wall to the far side ,mend it for 2 k and get a bigger plot and no future arguments was a good option Laughing

tis daft when the original plot plans give no indication of responsibility for the maintenance of boundary structures . dan1

Well. I did try and find out whether he thought the ditch was mine on the basis of the "hedge + ditch presumption"
http://www.boundary-problems.co.uk/boundary-problems/legalpresumptions.html#The%20Hedge%20and%20Ditch%20presumption
He however vehemently maintained that he owns the whole ditch, but I must pay (his son's firm!) to clear it because it's downhill from me!
When asked to direct me to any legal evidence or statute about this rule he got very ranty, wrote lots of angry emails in CAPITALS about BLOODY TOWNIES, and then went mysteriously quiet.
(I'm not a bloody towny btw) Rob R

he got very ranty

He knows that he hasn't got a leg to stand on, then. Rolling Eyes

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