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Mutton

Does not hunted environment even out?

Just curious.

In simple terms you have people hunting foxes and other predators.
You have people hunting rabbits and other nuisance herbivores that compete with sheep (and giving them myxamitosis to bump them off).

So, in very simple terms, if you stopped hunting/interfering with all of these, would it balance out? If so how long would it take?

As in a rabbit population kept roughly constant by a fox population that is roughly constant, without people joining in.

Has this been tried anywhere?
cab

No environment ever 'evens out', you get population fluctuations between predators and prey. But, yes, if you leave well alone a kind of 'balance' around a certain point will occur. Trouble is we don't and have not left well alone; indeed, considering live our daily lives we can't do so. Agriculture, travel, homes, all of these things have a massive impact on the world around us.

So you can leave the rabbit population alone and what happens is you get a hell of a lot of rabbits, the foxes do well out of it, but then the rabbits make a hell of a mess of farms and gardens.

When it comes down to it, the ecology of the British Isles is not one that has ever been without humanity, and we're so well integrated into it that we can't just take our hands off it and leave it to fend for itself. Not without getting a radically different set of habitats to those we consider 'natural' or 'desirable'.
Mutton

cab wrote:


So you can leave the rabbit population alone and what happens is you get a hell of a lot of rabbits, the foxes do well out of it, but then the rabbits make a hell of a mess of farms and gardens.

.


Was wondering how many fox breeding seasons would increase the predator numbers enough to reduce the rabbits.
Also of course in terms of national population would need to count all the urban foxes. Don't think there are any urban rabbits. Very Happy
Am aware of the population crashes that happen in the wilderness (as in US National Parks) etc. Also wondering whether there was anywhere in the UK where neither was hunted and what happened. Or indeed is there an online record anywhere of somewhere in the world where there has been an experiment/effort to leave predator-prey populations to sort themselves out/recover from man made interference. Just something of interest.

As I understand it we introduced rabbits to the UK a long time back - Medieval period manor houses had large heaps of earth as artificial warrens and they'd go and harvest them from time to time.

Also introduced rabbits to Australia, gorse to NZ, rats etc to unique islands. I think I heard that foxes were introduced to the US because fox hunters wanted to be able to hunt them. (Maybe cougar was a little too exciting.) Laughing
Tavascarow

Foxes don't eat many rabbits, only the sick, injured, old & very young.
They get most of their protein from field mice & voles & on the open moors slugs & snails.
Mutton

Ah, didn't realise that.

Do they eat the myxamatosis ones? We had more rabbits than usual this summer - half a dozen instead of one or two - all bounding around healthy then myxi set in. Now down to one that I see regularly.

Interesting about field voles - trying to manage the land to encourage them so can encourage barn owls.
Tavascarow

Mutton wrote:
Ah, didn't realise that.

Do they eat the myxamatosis ones? We had more rabbits than usual this summer - half a dozen instead of one or two - all bounding around healthy then myxi set in. Now down to one that I see regularly.

Interesting about field voles - trying to manage the land to encourage them so can encourage barn owls.

Yes they eat the myxamatosised rabbits.
A rabbit with little sight or hearing is easy prey.
A healthy rabbit with all its senses in tact is to alert & quick for a fox.
lottie

I think polecats eat more rabbits round here than foxes---they certainly eat poultry--hope it's not illegal to remove them as we caught one in the fox trap---if it is then we let it go.
toggle

Mutton wrote:

As I understand it we introduced rabbits to the UK a long time back - Medieval period manor houses had large heaps of earth as artificial warrens and they'd go and harvest them from time to time.



William the conqueror was responsible for rabbits afaik
frewen

Ah - ok - I thought it was earlier (I thought the Romans introduced them)

Shaky history me Embarassed
toggle

according to one of my tutors anyway. had a bit of a thing about hunting anything did william, responsible for the forrests as well which made him even more unpopular
frewen

That makes sense Cool

Didn't he have scandinavian blood and a dubious second marriage after the "danish fashion" ?

or am I imagining it?
toggle

not sure, the period i'm studying is a tad later, we only really looked at stuff like forest laws as the reason peasants were a tad pissed off.


there's a ton of really dubious stuff though. it doesn't get more dubious than murdering your king with a red hot poker up the jacksie.
frewen

Laughing there's central heating and then there's Shocked

I really wish I had paid mroe attention in history lessons dontknow
toggle

I am really enjoying my course. should have done this years back.
robin wood

Most animals reproduce up to the carrying capacity of the environment and many, particularly predators, then have limiting factors on their reproduction. Foxes for instance have two limiting factors. In high mortality areas (urban foxes with many road kills) then all females will breed and litter size will be large. In low mortality areas litter size is restricted and many vixens do not breed. There was an excellent PhD done on foxes a few years ago which exploded many myths particularly about what they ate. The most interesting bits were published as a book "running with the fox" David Macdonald http://www.abebooks.co.uk/servlet/SearchResults?bt.x=0&bt.y=0&sortby=3&sts=t&tn=running+with+the+fox
Mutton

Cool, thank you for that reference.

Incidentally - on subject of Normans - I seem to remember that one of the great levellers, literally, was the longbow. England and Wales (don't know about Scotland) went for the longbow and you had to practice regularly from age of about 5 to be any good with it. Build up all the muscles etc. Which meant all the peasants were legally required to be armed and well practiced with an effective long distance weapon. William Rufus, one of William the Conqueror's sons was killed by a not found longbowman in the New Forest.
In France they didn't arm their peasants except in time of war, and went for the crossbow which didn't need years of weight training as it were. But longbow had faster rate of fire than cross bow.
Wandering off even further - I've been told the reason Brits stick up two fingers not one, is that the French would cut off the index and middle fingers of any captured bowman as that meant he couldn't draw a bow. So guess what our bowmen waved at the French before battle.
toggle

Frewen Feltmaker wrote:
That makes sense Cool

Didn't he have scandinavian blood and a dubious second marriage after the "danish fashion" ?

or am I imagining it?


oh, and the normans were viking decendents
Treacodactyl

Mutton wrote:
Don't think there are any urban rabbits. Very Happy


Actually, I think there are populations of recently escaped or dumped pet rabbits breeding.
Silas

toggle wrote:
Frewen Feltmaker wrote:
That makes sense Cool

Didn't he have scandinavian blood and a dubious second marriage after the "danish fashion" ?

or am I imagining it?


oh, and the normans were viking decendents


Pardon?
Nick

Silas wrote:
toggle wrote:
Frewen Feltmaker wrote:
That makes sense Cool

Didn't he have scandinavian blood and a dubious second marriage after the "danish fashion" ?

or am I imagining it?


oh, and the normans were viking decendents


Pardon?

Well, in that Vikings came and settled all along the coast of Scotland, England, Wales, Ireland, North Western France, Spain, Portugal and even into the Med and North Africa, seems likely (and irrelevant) that some Danish blood settled in Normanday, and then, 500 years later, or whenever, came to the UK. Europe's a fairly fluid gene pool, despite what you see on Jeremy Kyle.
Behemoth

I'm not happy with the image of a fluid gene pool. Shocked
frewen

It's ok - it isn't anything like a hot tub Wink
Silas

Nick wrote:
Silas wrote:
toggle wrote:
Frewen Feltmaker wrote:
That makes sense Cool

Didn't he have scandinavian blood and a dubious second marriage after the "danish fashion" ?

or am I imagining it?


oh, and the normans were viking decendents


Pardon?

Well, in that Vikings came and settled all along the coast of Scotland, England, Wales, Ireland, North Western France, Spain, Portugal and even into the Med and North Africa, seems likely (and irrelevant) that some Danish blood settled in Normanday, and then, 500 years later, or whenever, came to the UK. Europe's a fairly fluid gene pool, despite what you see on Jeremy Kyle.


I don't think you will find much Viking blood in Williams family - his Greatgrandmother may have been Danish as I recall, but I think that is about it.
Rosemary Judy

there are urban rabbits...
the roundabout I go round each morning and evening has several dozen eating grass for breakfast ....
the urban fox is also often seen on his way to the roundabout.

and the golf course has hundreds. I know the man who keeps the population down and I get several for my pot. Very Happy
Mutton

Ah ha.
Just never seen any in the bit of urban where I used to live.
Occasional very early morning deer commuting in (and out again) to eat the park near the edge of town, but not rabbits.
toggle

Silas wrote:
Nick wrote:
Silas wrote:
toggle wrote:
Frewen Feltmaker wrote:
That makes sense Cool

Didn't he have scandinavian blood and a dubious second marriage after the "danish fashion" ?

or am I imagining it?


oh, and the normans were viking decendents


Pardon?

Well, in that Vikings came and settled all along the coast of Scotland, England, Wales, Ireland, North Western France, Spain, Portugal and even into the Med and North Africa, seems likely (and irrelevant) that some Danish blood settled in Normanday, and then, 500 years later, or whenever, came to the UK. Europe's a fairly fluid gene pool, despite what you see on Jeremy Kyle.


I don't think you will find much Viking blood in Williams family - his Greatgrandmother may have been Danish as I recall, but I think that is about it.


normans= norsemen=vikings
Silas

toggle wrote:
Silas wrote:
Nick wrote:
Silas wrote:
toggle wrote:
Frewen Feltmaker wrote:
That makes sense Cool

Didn't he have scandinavian blood and a dubious second marriage after the "danish fashion" ?

or am I imagining it?


oh, and the normans were viking decendents


Pardon?

Well, in that Vikings came and settled all along the coast of Scotland, England, Wales, Ireland, North Western France, Spain, Portugal and even into the Med and North Africa, seems likely (and irrelevant) that some Danish blood settled in Normanday, and then, 500 years later, or whenever, came to the UK. Europe's a fairly fluid gene pool, despite what you see on Jeremy Kyle.


I don't think you will find much Viking blood in Williams family - his Greatgrandmother may have been Danish as I recall, but I think that is about it.


normans= norsemen=vikings


I really don't know where you got that from.
Silas

I do now! Wiki!!!!

Its not always a good source of reliable 'facts 'you know!
toggle

Silas wrote:
I do now! Wiki!!!!

Its not always a good source of reliable 'facts 'you know!


bollocks.

it was y tutor at college, who i suspect knows the subject better than you do.
Silas

"The name "Normans" derives from "Northmen" or "Norsemen", after the Vikings"

This is direct from Wiki- pretty close to what you wrote huh?
sean

I'd have said it based on Asterix et les Normandes personally.
toggle

Silas wrote:
"The name "Normans" derives from "Northmen" or "Norsemen", after the Vikings"

This is direct from Wiki- pretty close to what you wrote huh?


it's also what my tutor told me when we were discussing the norman invasion.

unlike you, i haven't read the wiki article. seems interesting you are so derisive of wiki, but that is where you went for information on the subject.

and if you disagree with it, perhaps you could enlighten us, and i'll give you my tutor's details so you can give her the benefit of your great fountain of knowledge as well.
Jamanda

It was certainly what I was taught at school. Glad to have been put right after all these years.

We'd better put the Bayeux tapestry folk right too.
And these guys.
Jenna

Sorry Silas, it's what our lad was taught at college and uni doing archaeology as well. Smile . it's possible his tutors were idiots........
Wouldn't say that to their faces though Razz
Silas

OK, I give in Wink
sean

Silas wrote:
OK, I give in Wink


Who are you and what have you done with Silas? Wink
Silas

sean wrote:
Silas wrote:
OK, I give in Wink


Who are you and what have you done with Silas? Wink


Even Silas is wrong sometimes Shocked
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