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Gill

Dog Breeding

I've owned dogs (or rather they've owned me!) for a number of years. The remaining member of my pack is now very elderly and I've been wondering what to do when she's finally no longer around.

I was looking at the price of replacement pedigree dogs and was shocked to see that puppies go for anywhere between £800 and £1350. That would be a handy supplement to my income.

Does anyone else here breed dogs? I'm certainly not looking to create a puppy farm, rather a way to boost my income while I (and the dogs) have fun.

Gill
jamanda

My parents used to do it. They were quite successful and had dogs that won at Crufts and were good workers. They charged a lot for the pups and for stud fees, but the couple of years they actually kept books to record incomings and out goings they found they only just broke even.
joanne

I breed pedigree dogs and I firmly believe that if done properly you cannot ever make a profit from it

Firstly - Of course its dependant on the breed but if you want to be taken seriously as a genuine breeder and NOT a puppy farmer - you need to be showing your stock and making others in the breed aware of your existence - you also need to do this for networking.

Exhibiting at Championship dog shows costs upwards of £22 per dog for a first entry plus £5 or £6 for a second class plus £4 for a catalogue plus petrol to get there plus the time involved as they are all over the country - A very expensive and time consuming hobby

Then there is finding the right stud dog for your bitch - Stud fee's are usually £500+ or a puppy - You have to be aware of line breeding and also aware that in ALL pedigree breeds NOT just the Vulnerable Native Breeds that litter sizes are depressed and missed matings are increasingly common - whereas 20 years ago it was usual for a Golden Retriever to have litters of 7+ nowadays those litter sizes are 4+ - Of course there are exceptions to the rule and I've now doubt there are people on here who have had huge numbers in their litters

I don't know what sort of dog you'd want to keep - Farming means dogs from the gundog, hound, pastoral and terrier groups can be useful but if you do decide to go ahead - please please please consider breeds from the Vulnerable Native Breed's - Just like our native cattle, pig and sheep breeds - they are in need of preserving

Terrier Group

Bull Terrier (Miniature) *
Dandie Dinmont Terrier
Smooth Fox Terrier
Glen of Imaal Terrier
Irish Terrier
Kerry Blue Terrier
Lakeland Terrier
Manchester Terrier
Norwich
Sealyham Terrier
Skye Terrier
Soft Coated Wheaten Terrier
Welsh Terrier


Gundog Group


Irish Red & White Setter
Curly Coated Retriever
Clumber Spaniel
Field Spaniel
Irish Water Spaniel
Sussex Spaniel


Hound Group

Deerhound
Otterhound

Pastoral Group

Smooth Collie
Lancashire Heeler
Cardigan Welsh Corgi


Toy Group

English Toy Terrier (B & T)
jamanda

Can I just add to what Jocorless said that it is all incredibly time consuming.
Green Man

I can't see why showing should make you any more of a reputable breeder than a non show person. From what I can see showing is all about who you are, and how well you get on with the judges (It can be very political or even bitchy). When a specific breed becomes popular after winning Crufts, many 'reputable' breeders seem to mass produce litters to fill the demand resulting in quite rapid drop in health and vitality of the pups produced.
I think I agree that if you do it properly you will not make a great deal on money but if breeding healthy bloodlines interests you, it could be fun and save you money when replacing your pups.(Yes it is hard work, and not fun in a small house.)
Beckyess

Have to agree you hardly make any money if at all. I've bred 4 litters and am considerably out of pocket because of large vets bills for one of the litters. I am currently importing some dogs into the UK and they will cost me about 6k in total and the chances of me seeing a 'return' on that is slim.
Health testing your stock is important and costs approximately £500 per dog (depending on what tests are required). Imagine you pay £800 for your bitch puppy, takes 2 years to raise at about £1,000 cost, health tests at £500, stud fee cost of puppy another £500 - £800 (or more) so you've already spent £3,100 without a puppy insight. This doesn't take into account any vets fees that you may incur. If your bitch only has a few puppies or requires emergency treatment then you are in for a big loss. Only breed dogs if you can carry that kind of loss.
People who breed dogs for money are not very well thought of.
Becky
joanne

Cho-ku-ri wrote:
I can't see why showing should make you any more of a reputable breeder than a non show person. From what I can see showing is all about who you are, and how well you get on with the judges (It can be very political or even bitchy). When a specific breed becomes popular after winning Crufts, many 'reputable' breeders seem to mass produce litters to fill the demand resulting in quite rapid drop in health and vitality of the pups produced.
I think I agree that if you do it properly you will not make a great deal on money but if breeding healthy bloodlines interests you, it could be fun and save you money when replacing your pups.(Yes it is hard work, and not fun in a small house.)


As usual CKR - You miss the point completely - I never said showing made you a more reputable breeder - I said to that to be taken seriously as a breeder you need to show - Take for instance owning a stud dog - What is the point of having the worlds most fantastic dog available for stud - if no-one knows anything about him and if he is that good - why aren't you showing him ? Is there something you are not saying that is wrong with him ? - None of these things may be true BUT unless you open yourself and your stock to peer review - these questions wil lbe asked

And yes - Dog showing is political and can be extremely bitchy and some very successful breeders keep their animals in not very nice conditions BUT how do you find out this information and what is going on if you don't know anyone else in the breed ?

Exhibiting anything at all - whether thats Dogs, budgies, cows, sheep, poultry or Victoria Sponge cakes inevitably can involve back biting and politics - thats Human nature BUT that doesn't stop thousands of people doing it every weekend does it ?
wellington womble

If your puppies are to be worth any of money, you need to be able to demonstrate their quality. This is what shows 'prove' - the parents show record is the quality of the pups. The breeder we bought our dogs from says that she breeds for showing, and keeps the pick of litter - so she does it to create higher quality dogs, but has to find homes for the remainder of the litter. I don't think many people make much money from it.

On the other hand, lots and lots of people (like me) simply want a pet dog with a nice temperament - I couldn't give a monkeys about the fact that mine have a full pedigree with varous show winners scattered about (even if they do have to share a briancell). We bought them for pets, from the breeder becuase she was local, and the dogs were well looked after. If someone had had happy puppies, and we'd seen mum and dad, and been happy that they had nice natures, and all were well looked after, we'd have happily bought them without pedigrees - surely there is a market for reputable breeders for the pet trade? Just because your selling pets, doesn't mean you have to be a puppy farmer. I just wonder whether you'd have trouble identifiying a steady market. I think Alison breeds spaniels for sale - she might be able to advise.

You'd save work, but I'm not sure you'd be able to sell the pups much cheaper - I think most breeders do it for the love of it.

To solve your immediate problem, have a look round the local rescue homes.
Green Man

I don't think I missed the point, you have repeated it "to be taken seriously as a breeder you need to show". To be taken seriously by who? Other breeders? If I did have that perfect specimen of a dog at home and never showed it, and it only had one litter of healthy and sound puppies it would not matter one jot. As long as the prodigy was healthy. I don't breed dogs, and don’t have an axe to grind, but I just don't like the implication that you need to be in a gang or clique to be doing the job well.
wellington womble

But then how do you prove it?
Green Man

Look at the German Shepherd breed and see what show breeders have done to them. Surprised Watch an old war movie, and see show dogs today and they are almost unrecognisable with their long sloping hind ends with weak hips. These dogs could never herd sheep nowadays. Crying or Very sad
joanne

Cho-ku-ri wrote:
Look at the German Shepherd breed and see what show breeders have done to them. Surprised Watch an old war movie, and see show dogs today and they are almost unrecognisable with their long sloping hind ends with weak hips. These dogs could never herd sheep nowadays. Crying or Very sad


That is one example that everyone brings up and yes on that matter I totally agree with you - I do not like the confirmation of modern German Shepherd dogs at all - they have destroyed a beautiful and proud breed and its a disgrace.

Quote:
If I did have that perfect specimen of a dog at home and never showed it, and it only had one litter of healthy and sound puppies it would not matter one jot. As long as the prodigy was healthy.


Agree - but if you are trying to make a profit out of breeding dogs it does - and this was the point of the thread wasn't it ? - Also to get the most money for your puppies you have to be selling to the Dog Show fraternity - not pet owners - pure pet puppies do not command the same amount of money as show bred puppies and again maximising profit is the issue here - If you just want to breed for the pet market it is inevitable you need to go for quantity not quality which takes you down the puppy farmer route - Nasty nasty place to be.....

We've had many discussions on the rights and wrongs of showing dogs and breeding pedigree dogs - The point of this thread is whether you can make a profit from breeding them - I was trying to point out that to realise the highest amount of money for your puppies involves a big commitment on your behalf to promote and enhance your stock
Beckyess

and as I said, people who breed dogs for money are not well thought of and it only takes one mistake and someone to sue you and then where would you be!
Becky
Green Man

Sorry, I accept I was not talking about breeding for a business/living. Embarassed
Marionb

I've thought about breeding in the past.... just as a hobby sort of thing.

We bought our JRT last year for £100..... just an ordinary pup off a farm.... the bitch had 8 pups so that would have been a total of £800 if they were all sold.... there's got to be some profit in that.
Green Man

..and no paperwork.
Beckyess

If you cut corners, feed cheap food, don't register or health test then yes you can make a profit after all that's what puppy farmers do!
However, if you buy quality stock of sound health and temperament, use quality food, provide proper vet care (worming/defleaing/vaccinations), do all the health tests and register the puppies then you wont make much money!
Becky
boisdevie1

Putting my head above the parapet and perhaps putting the cat amongst the pigeons. Since there must be thousands of dogs in search of a good home, what's wrong with finding a rescue dog?
Beckyess

Absolutely nothing but Gill was enquiring as to having an income from Dog Breeding.
Becky
joanne

Ditto Becky
Marionb

I wouldnt necessariy call people who live on farms and keep a couple of bitches for breeding "puppy farmers". A neighbour of mine does this and her dogs and pups are extremely well cared for - the term "puppy farmers" to me implies those people who keep lots of bitches to breed from, and dont look after the pups properly.
jamanda

Marionb wrote:
I wouldnt necessariy call people who live on farms and keep a couple of bitches for breeding "puppy farmers". A neighbour of mine does this and her dogs and pups are extremely well cared for - the term "puppy farmers" to me implies those people who keep lots of bitches to breed from, and dont look after the pups properly.


But those dogs, whilst being healthy and happy and perfectly good companions/workers won't command the money that Gill was talking about in the first thread.
Beckyess

To me anyone who breeds dogs for money is a puppy farmer, whether they have 1 or 101 bitches. There is only one reason that dogs should be bred and that is for the betterment of the breed, which means close attention to health, type and temperament and the retention of at least one of each generation by the breeder to further their line.
Actually I've just thought of another reason that dogs can be bred and that's for assistance dog purposes.
Becky (who donates puppies to Hearing Dogs for Deaf People)
Marionb

But not everyone wants a pure bred perfect specimen....

There are plenty of people who just want a dog for a pet, companion etc etc.

Why should they be forced to pay extortionate prices for a highly bred animal when they will never actually make any use of that breeding?

I know which I would choose, any day.
gil

Spose it depends what you're breeding for.
A friend's mother breeds dachshunds that aren't particularly pedigree, though they are all dash, but have good temperaments and are healthy. Some people seem to want a pet, not for showing or onward breeding, that is a specific breed. Same with families wanting labs because they are supposed to be gentle, loveable, good with kids etc.

On the other hand, (as with cats), a mutt for companionship, robustness, good health and temperament.
Beckyess

My experience in the dog world is that people who buy pet quality often end up with a dog that has health problems, don't actually look like the breed they bought and have terrible behavioural problems with them too.
Just because a dog has been bred by someone who wants to better the breed doesn't mean they are unsuitable as pets, in fact very few dogs with dodgy temperaments make it through to the breed rings at shows as the old romour mills will work against them very quickly. On the other hand, many pet breeders will put up with their much loved pets foibles, including snappy temperament, so that little 'Duchess' can have a litter.
Most puppies bred by show breeders will end up as pets, and good pets they will make.
Buying a cheap puppy could be a false economy and you could actually end up paying more in vets bills than buying a well bred pup from health tested stock.
Becky
cab

Re: Dog Breeding

Just out of curiosity Gil, what breed of dog?
jamanda

Marionb wrote:
But not everyone wants a pure bred perfect specimen....

There are plenty of people who just want a dog for a pet, companion etc etc.

Why should they be forced to pay extortionate prices for a highly bred animal when they will never actually make any use of that breeding?

I know which I would choose, any day.


I absolutely agree. Our pedigree dogs were lovely pets, but then so's the dopey creature we have now (his Mother got put in the pudding club by some unknown local hound). He was born by c-section, he was vaccinated and cost us £50 because his Mum's owner was panicking about what on earth he'd do with 13 mongrels. As it happens the wayward Mother was at least intelligent enough to get knocked up by another springer, so he sold the rest as working dogs. The point is - nothing at all wrong with non-pedigree dogs, but there's no money in them. And nothing wrong with pedigree dogs either - but there's no money in them either.
joanne

Marionb wrote:
But not everyone wants a pure bred perfect specimen....

There are plenty of people who just want a dog for a pet, companion etc etc.

Why should they be forced to pay extortionate prices for a highly bred animal when they will never actually make any use of that breeding?

I know which I would choose, any day.


But that isn't the point of this thread is it - Gill asked a specific question does anyone breed dogs and is there any money in it due to the high cost of a pedigree puppy and the answers given by those of us who do breed pedigrees reflect our experiences and views on best practice

Why is it everytime we try and have a debate on pedigree dogs, people start banging on about dogs in rescue or nice cheap dogs that make good companions?

We don't do the same thing about pedigree pigs, sheep or cattle - infact we celebrate the subtleties of those breeds.

The same should be true for dogs and cats - There are those of us out there that enjoy breeding dogs, cats etc for the betterment of the individual pedigree breed - In some cases if it wasn't for those people we would not have some of our native breeds still in existence

I don't have pedigree cats - I have complete moggies - I love them just the same as my pedigree dog BUT I don't criticise someone for wanting to own a pure-bred Siamese or Devon Rex - its their choice

Nobody is forcing people to buy a pedigree dog from a reputable breeder and to pay the appropriate amount of money for a puppy - just as no-one is forcing us to buy our free-range chicken instead of supermarket battery chicken but we should all know by now there is a world of difference between the two......
Beckyess

Excellently put!
Becky
gil

Re: Dog Breeding

cab wrote:
Just out of curiosity Gil, what breed of dog?


This is getting confusing. Gill started the thread. Are you asking her what breed she was thinking of ?

I (gil) should have stayed out of it Laughing
hedgewitch

I know this isn't a debate between rescue v pedigree dogs, but it has been mentioned and as a dog owner rather than a breeder I would like to commend responsible, knowledgeable, caring dog breeders. There are lot of them out there. I have usually had rescue dogs and one of my current dogs is a rescue. He's a great dog, but came with problems and baggage. After some work he us brilliant and I wouldn't swap him for the world.

Another of my dogs came from a breeder. He is also brilliant but much easier to look after to start with! I know his background and his parents. He stayed with his mother until old enough to come to us, was kept in the house as the breeder knew this was how he would live with us, socialised, knew his name (that we had chosen - the breeder asked what we wanted to call him - i.e. his 'everyday' name) and had got used to a small puppy lead. The breeder really prepared him for the life he would have with us, including discussing diet etc., he was up-to-date with vaccinations, vet check up etc.. She was in touch with us for any advice when we first had him and is still in touch with us on a regular basis (all be it as a friend now). I couldn't recommend a responsible breeder highly enough.

That said, I'd be very surprised if she covered costs on the litter, let alone made a profit. She has her dogs for the love of them.
wellington womble

I have nothing at all against breeding dogs for showing, providing the breed standard and associations themselves are aiming to promote positive health and temperment over any unfairly unhealthy shapes/sizes etc for the dog (german shepherds have already been cited, and I believe are improving) I think most responsible breeders do already act in this way, anyway.

But I do think it's unfair to brand anyone who breeds pups with other qualities in mind (and definitley without compromising the animals' individually or the breed in general's welfare or care) as a puppy farmer. I would happily have bought dogs without pedigrees if I were satisfied with their welfare and temperament - I'm sure a lot of people would.

BUT I have come to the conclusion (and probably Gill has by now!) that there's no money in it anyway, and that most puppies don't make the grade, and are sold as pets. I wonder if this already happens - the best dogs are kept for breeding, and the 'worst' according to breed standards are sold more cheaply for pets. I suppose that's the ideal solution.

For the record, both my dogs are castrated as I didn't want un-planned puppies. I have been asked several times if one of them could do a stud service, as he's very pretty (no idea if he conforms to breed standard) but I would have refused anyway, as he only has half a braincell, and is terrified of anything bigger than duckling. I don't think these are traits that should be bred from! Fortunately, neither of these deficits affect his cuddling and footwarming abilities, so his place in the family is safe!
Gill

I've had long coat chihuahuas for years and they're a delight. I can't imagine being without one but I'm down to the last elderly survivor of our pack.

It would be so rewarding if I could pass onto others the happiness that these lovely dogs have brought to me. If I could make some money out of it at the same time, so much the better.

I appreciate all the good advice that's been given here and in slow time I shall read it through carefully. There's a lot of opinions here which, although genuinely held and well-intentioned, detract from the usefulness of the thread.

Gill
Beckyess

You need to speak to The Chihuahua Club, small breeds like Chihuahua's and Pomeraninas are known as heart ache breeds because of the huge birth problems, health problems, high mortality rates and low litter numbers that they have. That's why they cost so much.
Becky
joanne

wellington womble wrote:
BUT I have come to the conclusion (and probably Gill has by now!) that there's no money in it anyway, and that most puppies don't make the grade, and are sold as pets. I wonder if this already happens - the best dogs are kept for breeding, and the 'worst' according to breed standards are sold more cheaply for pets. I suppose that's the ideal solution.


And that is commonly what happens
cab

Re: Dog Breeding

gil wrote:
cab wrote:
Just out of curiosity Gil, what breed of dog?


This is getting confusing. Gill started the thread. Are you asking her what breed she was thinking of ?

I (gil) should have stayed out of it Laughing



Yes, I'm asking Gill, but I'm carp at typing Laughing

Simply curious, thats all.
wellington womble

Beckyess wrote:
You need to speak to The Chihuahua Club, small breeds like Chihuahua's and Pomeraninas are known as heart ache breeds because of the huge birth problems, health problems, high mortality rates and low litter numbers that they have. That's why they cost so much.
Becky


Ah - I see now. My pedigrees (despite distinct lack of brain, the both have a bit of paper to say who their ancestors are!) were only £350 each. I assume they were got through the normal route, and are not heartache breeds (headache breeds, perhaps!)

I thought maybe pedigree prices had gone up a lot since I bought mine!
lassemista

Putting in my 2 pennorth. My lovely bitch whelped on Wednesday evening. I had paid £650 stud fee, £160 for blood tests since she had a funny season last time. I have also spent quite a lot of money on equipment which will be used again (indeed some of it hasn't arrived yet! she was early).
She had one puppy Shocked Shocked . The breed would normally have 6+.
I have a whole series of buyers lined up - most, if not all, will be disappointed, and not just in the short term. There will not be another litter of these dogs this year as far as I know.
On the bright side, both Mum and puppy seem well. Some people lose both bitch and offspring.
I have to decide whether I sell the puppy and make a loss, or keep it myself as an expensive puppy, but at least I have something to show for it.
If I can make the technology work I will post a picture.
Andrea.[/img]No can't do it - now found attachment box, but picture just staying in separate box - Help
k9mike

To cut a long thread short
To the originator of the thread,its not the money that counts its the love of improving your chosen breed of dog
In my case my dogs are for working,I have a litter in order to keep a cple back to train up,I also make careful selection as to sire and dam so that the qualities of both hopefully impart a good grounding as far as the pups are concerned.
Done properly I agree it can be costly my pockets are more empty than full
Hope that helps,I'm lucky my wife still works to keep me and my dogs both as expensive as the other.
lassemista

A lttle update for those thinking of making money out of dog breeding. My puppy has now developed a hernia between her ribs - probably the result of an over keen and under utilised mother. Yesterday's vet visits probably cost around £300, with another £100+ tonight. I daren't think what it will be if they have to operate to repair it - at the moment the hope is that the puppy growing will close it again.
I suppose a puppy farmer would cut their losses.....
dpack

im not a breeder as such but i know the previous blood line of my yellow hound through 4 generations and various crosses of genes
he is clever ,athletic ,pretty and almost biddable ,he is a killer (i mean hunter ) but the other stuff makes that tolerable
he has not been ill in 8 1/2 years
dogs bred for look rather than purpose, vigour and personality are bound to have problems with health and character
with regard to the gsd there are breeders of working dogs as well as show dogs . the workers are huge and wolfie built and inho very fine animals ,show gsd are not
lassemista

Mine are pedigree and I show them, but they have close relatives that are working gundogs or do working trials at top level. They have well developed instincts, and are extremely athletic. I have fit and healthy 11 and 10yr olds (fingers crossed in view of recent history). The latters father is still going at 14.
I think my situation is just bad luck.
Andrea.
fenwoman

Re: Dog Breeding

Gill wrote:
I've owned dogs (or rather they've owned me!) for a number of years. The remaining member of my pack is now very elderly and I've been wondering what to do when she's finally no longer around.

I was looking at the price of replacement pedigree dogs and was shocked to see that puppies go for anywhere between £800 and £1350. That would be a handy supplement to my income.

Does anyone else here breed dogs? I'm certainly not looking to create a puppy farm, rather a way to boost my income while I (and the dogs) have fun.

Gill

I breed dogs and it is not a very good way to boost your income unless you are happy to regard them as a 'crop' and sell to whomever comes up with the cash. Most uppy faremrs for instance won't ask any questions to ensure that the people are suitable, or what type of home they own (working labradors or springers in 7th floor flats are not a good idea). They will buy the cheapest brood bitches, mate it to any old dog as long as it is a pedigree, no health teating will be done and the dam and pups are fed tehe cheapest . The pups will be weaned and sold as early as possible (I've seen 5 week old pups for sale!) and sold to whomever comes with the money. If anything goes wrong, they won't take the pup back as most responsible breeders will.
My won dogs have the relevant health tests which are expensive, are fed well especially the breeding bitches when they are in pup. They are all wormed every 3 months and the pups are weaned onto a good and varied diet. New owners are carefully vetter so it takes me longer to place the litter as I turn unsuitable people away. My pups go to their new homes with innoculations, microchips, 6 weeks free insurance, a weeks supply of food, some of the bedding from the bed they have slept in, a comprehensive care sheet and the new owners have to agree to bring the dog back to me if they cannot keep it at any stage of it's life for whatever reason. In other words, if you breed a litter of pups, you will be reponsible for their wellbeing for the rest for their lives.
My own breed is cavalier king charles spaniels and they certainly don't fetch the prices you mentioned. By the time you have done all the health trsting, fed the parent stock, paid a stud fee, wormed and innoculated and KC registered the pups and paid for several weeks advertising, you won't make a fortune believe me. You also have to consider what will happen if the brood bitches you bought turn out to be infertile, or test positive for any of the diseases and you cannot breed from them, and what will you do with them once they have had the maxiumum litters you are allowed to have? (Mine are spayed and kept as house pets) If you have kept them outside in kennels all their lives, they will not make good pets if you don't want to keep anything which cannot breed, they will also not be housetrained. This will make them unsuitable to be rehomed as pets. To make real profits you need to breed them from their first season until their last, then have them put to sleep, never have health tests done and sell to anyone who wants one, no matter how unsuitable they are and how much you *know* the pup will end up abused or sold on or dumped in the future. The important thing is the money.
I treat my dogs like I do my chickens. If I could never breed or sell another one, I would still keep them because I like having them.
OUt of interest, which particular breed do you have in mind which costs as much as you state and is it a breed you know and love or just one which will make a profit? CKCS fetch around £500, the PRA testing costs around £40 per dog per year and the ehart tesing around the same. The same for my cockers.
cab

Discussion now unlocked.

Polite requests sent by PM to those who participated for the last day or two... Please keep it more civil, be nice to each other.

Cheers,

Cab.
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