| Archive for Downsizer For an ethical approach to consumption |
| giraffe |
doing up my houseIf you had a budget of about ten grand to make a typical 3 bed 2 storey + attic room victorian semi more eco friendly, what would you do? Gas boiler, electric oven. Looking for inspiration... |
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| Mrs Fiddlesticks |
Insulation 1st I'd guess. A super efficient boiler is going to work best when the house is insulated in the 1st place.
After that.. hmm I expect the experts to be along in a mo... |
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| jamsam |
under floor heating - could save you a packet on heating small rooms like toilets and bathrooms.
more water butts, gey water filters and low flush toilets. recycled/low impact fllors- recycled wooden flooring or greener matting ie reed or hemp. im running out of ideas 
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| giraffe |
floors are sanded boards apart from the two rooms with concrete floors. Does anyone think it would be worth setting up some sort of alternative fuel / wood burner system for the heating and hot water? Boiler and central heating are rubbish and am going to have to replace them anyway very soon. Don't mind if only one or two rooms are "properly" heated as my childhood was spent freezing and now I hate warm houses! | ||||
| jamsam |
where i work all the houses have wood burning stoves and they heat the water aswell. it works very well in the summer and now its starting to get cold its a struggle to get enopugh wood for them all, so they are bringing in the wood which completely goes against the point. i would love wood burning stoves, but is the smoke worth the effort? | ||||
| judith |
We have found that the most eco-friendly things we have done to our house have been the "non-sexy" ones. £200 worth of insulation in the extension probably saves as much energy as the £considerably more solar water heating system we put in. Guests tend to be more impressed with the latter though.
Another major success was having the house repointed, which has greatly reduced our damp problems, but again it is not very exciting. Nor is buying more efficient electrical appliances. We thought we were going to have to replace our boiler, but as the house gradually becomes more watertight and insulated - and after the boiler had a really thorough service - we are finding that it probably doesn't need to go. None of this stops me coveting a wood-burning cooking stove, but on the scale of eco-friendliness, it doesn't rate very highly 
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| sean |
Insulation first, including replacing windows if necessary. I'd give serious thought to a woodburner for heating and water. I think there was a thread here about grants being available for this.
Jamsam, a properly set up and used woodburner should be generating almost no smoke anyway. Clearview stoves are licensed to burn wood even in Smoke free zones. |
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| giraffe |
Already planning to replace some of the windows and replace the outside doors, renew insulation etc as part of the main building work.
I'm thinking a wood burner might be feasible but what about in the summer when we want hot water but not the heat? Sorry this is a stupid question, just wondering! |
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| Jonnyboy |
Easy, your thermostat would be linked up to the pump with an override, so it won't start to heat the radiators until the tank is good and hot In the summer we just light a small fire to heat the tank and then let it go out, no problems. Check out the clear skies initiative, their grants will make your £10k go a lot further but it ends in march! |
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| giraffe |
Thanks for the advice about summer hot water - I was wondering!
so would something like this http://www.firesonline.com/acatalog/Hunter_Herald_8_Central_Heating_Stove__Wood.html be what I was looking for? Anybody know whether this would be really costly to install? Would need to take out existing 1970s style gas bar "fire" and back boiler which is behind it and hook it up, clean chimney flue and uncap it. Obviously I'd be looking for the cost a professional would charge me to do it. Not asking for an exact figure, but would I be looking at a few hundred or thousands? |
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| Jonnyboy |
Will certainly be several hundred, you may even need top reline the flue depending on it's condition. If you go for a clear skies grant you get £1500 towards the cost of wood burner installation, but there are restrictions on what burner you can buy.
Are you sure you only need to heat 7 radiators? |
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| giraffe |
only seven rooms in the house so yes. At the moment the central heating system is so crappy that it only heats up 3 radiators (don't know why and it's not air in the system) properly and the house is cold but liveable in. Can you see now why I feel the need to replace the heating system?!
The house has had no major renovations since the mid seventies by the looks of things - we are basically going to have to gut it and start again - new radiators, wiring, new bathroom and kitchen etc. We have set aside 10k for extra spending (on top of everything else) on eco improvements. Was just wondering if a woodburner would be a good way of fuelling my new heating system, as it doesn't seem to cost much more than a new boiler etc? And with rising gas prices (gas running out in future) it might be a good investment to get the system in now. |
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| thos |
My conclusions from considering changes to my house:
A woodburning stove can heat the kitchen, can be used for some cooking (not food that requires a specific temperature or cannot stand temperature variation) and winter hot water. Wood-burning does not have the welly to run central heating, unless you go for burning pellets in forced air. I considered a wood-powered Rayburn supplemented by gas for CH, but the solid-fuel model really needs coal. So I'll be burning wood in the kitchen and lounge, which should mean that I minimise the CH, especially after I have beefed up the insulation. My current preference is the Esse www.esse.com |
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| dougal |
Hmmm. Even so, most of your energy usage (hence CO2 emission) is probably down to heating! Hence the number one thing to attend to should be insulation. Roof, walls, windows (and its the windows that will cost most). And don't forget draughtproofing (but see later). Insulation should be done to the maximum possible - ie don't take the current Building Regs minimum as being the requirement. Once you are properly insulated, appliance efficiency (lights, freezer, etc can take a back seat) - you are using electricity inefficiently (for heating) but its not being totally wasted. Then its the heating system. The cost will depend on what you actually have. But you should try and take advantage of any south-facing, unobstructed roof to install solar water heating - using evacuated tube collectors. This means you need a hot water tank, ideally quite a big one. (Which may require other plumbing changes.) That's pretty general, and applies to anyone, anywhere, "Victorian semi" sounds urban - so that's what I'm assuming. There's a lot of considerations as to what the best type of plumbing system for the heating might be. I'm talking pressurised or not, combi or not, thermal store or not. These choices would interlock with other lifestyle choices and technical ones too. The existing radiators should be fine. The system can be powerflushed quite cheaply. EDIT If you are changing radiators, fit bigger ones - if possible to the existing pipework (to minimise cost). Bigger rads will help condensing boiler efficiency. Only replace the pipes if they are undersized (either by original skimping or subsequent scale build up - though they can be descaled without too much problem) and thereby restricting the heat flow. /EDIT Radiators "not working" could be as simple as a stuck £10 thermostatic valve. Ooh - invest in decent boiler controls. Converting to underfloor rather than your existing radiators (?) would be a lifestyle choice, not an ecological one. (Underfloor - with its lower circulated water temperature - is essential for some eco-choices (like using a heatpump - but that is unlikely to suit a victorian semi...). However, ground floor bare boards should be carefully sealed for draughts... If the boards are ever lifted, you might want to consider some insulation down there. Fit a condensing boiler. It should be "room-sealed". This means it draws its air for combustion from outside *not* from the room. So you can attend to the draughtproofing properly without risking Carbon Monoxide poisoning. If you *want* a woodburner, and have a source of wood, somewhere to store it and don't mind carrying the wood, you could add one. Your budget might have to be stretched to accomodate one with a backboiler, linked in to a thermal store tank. But I'd hesitate to suggest using that only - instead of a ch boiler. I doubt an autofeed woodchip-burner would make sense or suit the budget. One urban/mains gas boiler option (if its available to you) might be a Powergen Whispergen CHP boiler. A flat £3k package, installed - and that can include insulation as well. While its heating you, it also generates around 1kw of electrictity. (Not being distributed around the grid, little heat being wasted, this effectively saves the power station generating over 2kw - its a very good idea.) So, I'm suggesting £3k on the Whispergen package (with super insulation) and spending another £3k on solar water heating. That leaves you £4k. Woodburner/thermal store? (Whispergen would like a thermal store...) Double gazing? Efficient Appliances? Grey water recovery? Trade up the car to something much more efficient? Get a battery powered electric scooter for non-car urban mobility? Maybe invest something in a neat facility for storing separated rubbish for recycling? Or more solar thermal capacity? You might think of investing £400 in a small standby electricity generator to run on biodiesel if the lights should go out... I think that the priorities after attending to the basics must be down to your personal preferences and priorities. |
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| giraffe |
thanks for that Dougal - you have given me a great deal to think about. I shall look into the boiler you suggested. | ||||
| dougal |
Nottingham. There is (I believe) one on demo at the "Eco house". Its not a big (heat capacity) boiler, hence it needs good insulation in a typical semi. And can be used to advantage with a thermal store. Note that solar and wood burner could also contribute, as and when, to the same thermal store... |
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| Treacodactyl |
I've noticed a few questions about installing gas/oil cookers/heaters. Putting emissions to one side for the moment does anyone know of anywhere where fuels costs are predicted for the next few years?
Gas may be a good option now but what about the price in 5 years, could it double? |
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| judith |
In our experience, the thermal store / solar water heating combo hasn't been a happy one. Our store was designed to keep the water at a constant 60° C temperature at all times of the day and night. As a result, the boiler would cut in constantly before the solar panels had a chance to do their stuff. This 60° value was fixed, so the only way to get any value from the solar panels was to turn the boiler off altogether - which is not a satisfactory situation. After around a year of arguing with the thermal store supplier, they finally produced a new chip for us - the minimum temperature in the store is now 50°. We would have preferred 40°, but they wouldn't come down that low. |
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| dougal |
ALL energy prices are likely to rise. And that will 'knock-on' into prices of any manufactured or transported item, according to its 'energy content'. Most UK gas is used for industry and electricity generation, IIRC. Electricity is likely to remain far the most expensive kwh for kwh, although the relationship between electricity/oil/gas/coal/wood will adjust with market conditions - based on demand, after all, and hence somewhat self-adjusting. But it certainly makes sense to look to allowing oneself the potential for some diversity... |
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| tawny owl |
Or you could just have an immersion heater that would heat just the top bit of the tank - enough for usual washing needs. |
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| Andy B |
If the windows are sound and original please dont replace, what you can do is get them double glazed, they replace the window bit and replace the weights and it costs about £500.00 per window. And clearview stoves are very good ! |
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| giraffe |
don't worry Andy we're not ripping out any original features - (unlike the previous owners  )double glazing was what I meant.
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| Jonnyboy |
True, mine doesn't even shove out enough white smoke to shout habemus papus |
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| dougal |
Judith - there seems to be a communication disconnect or a mistaken design here. Ordinarily, the solar coil should be in the bottom of the tank, where it can heat the coldest, just arrived water. The boiler would be controlled by the temperature of water near the top of the tank. Thus the boiler ensures that there is always water available at the appropriate temperature, while the solar system reduces the work that the boiler has to do. Consolar diagram here. Note that the boiler *cannot* heat the water at the bottom of the tank... The basic idea is that the solar tries to heat the whole tankful, and the boiler just "tops up" the heat needed. It sounds like your system has that back-to-front. I can imagine that things would be more difficult if a "direct" thermal store were used (where the contents of the tank circulate through the boiler. But AFAIK that would be plain wrong to combine such a design with a solar coil in that store. (One might combine that type of store with a solar pre-heat in a second tank...) The main reason that I would recommend evacuated tube solar collectors is that they will reach a useful temperature for more of the year. Flat plate collectors may struggle to deliver any heat for 4 or months of the year - but flat plate has traditionally had a big price advantage... I'm a bit mystified as to what your system might actually be, not least because it would be normal to provide an adjustable thermostat rather than a "chip". There are lots of differences between the things that different people call "thermal stores"... And it would be normal to have the boiler on a timeclock. There is no point whatsoever in having the boiler 'cycling' at 3am, rather than (if required) having a decent run at 7am... And it certainly should not be needed to have the boiler switched on 24/365. I think you perhaps ought to call in an independent heating engineer to look at exactly what your system is, and how its being used. Its quite mainstream, and effective, to combine solar with a boiler by the use of an appropriate thermal store. And its the normal way in which multiple heat sources would be integrated. EDIT: long link text tidied up. |
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| judith |
We have a Gledhill Boilermate with the Solarpod attachment. From page 5 of the user manual: "Why is the boiler constantly switched to the "ON" position? The system operates most efficiently if the boiler is always left on, with the boiler thermostat always at its maximum setting - even in summer. This is because the intelligent electronics within the Thermal Store control the system temperature automatically based on demand. Your system should, generally, be left 'on' at all times."
Edited to say that it took almost 12 months for Gledhill to admit that this wasn't a sensible situation, and make the modifications we requested! I would be happy to send you copies of our correspondence if you are interested. |
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| Northern_Lad |
Yes it can. If both elements are in the same tank, and the tank is well insulated then the hot water at the top will transfer some heat to the cold water underneath it. Granted, it's a slower process than having the element at the bottom and utilising convection currents, but it will still happen. |
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| dougal |
I'm sorry you didn't follow what I was trying to say. If you look at the consolar diagram you will see that the bottom of the boiler coil (return to boiler) is well above the top of the solar coil. Obviously there will be *some* conductive heating downward to the lower water... 
However, the point is that the system be designed to allow the solar coil to be surrounded by the *coldest* possible water, in order to transfer the *maximum* useful heat from the solar collector. |
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| dougal |
Right. I've never heard of the Solarpod, and though there is a mention of it on Gledhill's website, there is no info about it at all. Gledhill are well established as a high-quality tank manufacturer, though they have not been (themselves) particularly involved with solar systems. (They supply tanks to many systems integrators though). The "Boilermate" is a basic direct thermal store. This is a diagram of the Boilermate: 
I can imagine that the "solarpod" might well be a secondary "pre-heat" tank as I mentioned in my previous post, above. Essentially, I'd expect it to pre-heat the cold water inlet to the Boilermate in the above diagram. Thus the solar only contributes to the hot water. The arrangement isn't daft, and should work - but it is very far from an ideal design. You *shouldn't try to reduce the thermal store temperature. When solar heated water "passes through" the store it will be "topped up" to the requested hot water temperature by heat from the store. It will only take out the heat required to 'top it up'. In summer this should be zero. Which means the boiler doesn't need to fire up to replace that heat. The disadvantage is just that the store must be hot (boiler heated) to avoid cooling the solar-heated water! (Because the store is super-insulated, this shouldn't be a massive disadvantage). In winter, its likely very close to the same as without the solarpod - but it should never be more than without it. Gledhill do offer a "proper" solar-integrating thermal store, the "Torrent" http://www.gasapplianceguide.co.uk/gledhill_torrent_solar.htm There's a (big) diagram here http://www.gasapplianceguide.co.uk/Dia%20large.jpg where you will note the solar coil working in the *coolest* part of the tank. And contributing to the *store* - not directly to the hot water. And thereby (potentially) allowing the boiler to be turned off for the summer... I don't know if Gledhill offer the option, but a coil fron the woodburner could take the place of the immersion element in this diagram. |
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| Treacodactyl |
While it would seem logical for energy prices to balance in the short term they may not. I remember my mum having an oil fired boiler installed and a year or so afterwards oil prices rising much faster than gas and now I notice whole-sale gas prices have doubled in the last week. 
As industry and power generators are not going to switch to wood fuels for a long, long time, and households are not going to suddenly replace their new gas boilers I would think wood and wood products as fuels to get cheaper. And, of course, you can buy a piece of woodland. |
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| dougal |
Yes, there are always going to be short term variations.
I gather that gas supplies are likely to be a bit tight for the next couple of winters. The problem is the speed of construction of transport infrastructure - pipelines from Russia and tanker terminals for gas from North Africa. The reserves exist, its transport that's the bottleneck. And when supply is constrained "spot" prices can rise alarmingly. BUT I think most distribution companies are on very long term contracts, and so the volatility in the spot market ought to have much less effect than it might appear to... Sensible thing is have some diversity of supply - and a source of wood is certainly one option. As previously noted, there are many strange influences on woodland prices... |
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| gil |
double glazing ? How about internal wooden window shutters ?
instead of, or as well as. giraffe - do you still have originals in place ? could you renovate or install ? Also, if you've got sash windows, you can get single glazed ones with brush-type draught excluders round the edges (which also stops them rattling). Apparently most of the heat lost through this kind of window is round the edge, not through the glass. Double glazing makes me think of condensation, and older houses not being able to breathe properly. But I'm not an expert on this kind of thing, and my window shutters are way down the to-do list. 
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| dpack |
draughtoroofing, insulation and double glazing willpay for themselves in that order .then go for energy efficient equipment . | ||||
| dougal |
Yep, that's the standard advice - BUT - unless any (combustion) heaters are "room sealed" (drawing their own combustion air in through their own flue system) then you *must* have a good supply of fresh air (or risk Carbon Monoxide poisoning). And that air supply means draughts... Hence upgrading the heating (an expensive item) may allow better draughtproofing (which is cheap!) And an efficient boiler might reduce the fuel consumption by 20-30% compared to 'traditional' designs. And that % saving would apply to whatever consumption would be expected from the levels of insulation employed... |