| Archive for Downsizer For an ethical approach to consumption |
| Blue Peter |
Eco-HamletThis may be of interest to some on here:http://www.epfsolutions.org.uk/eco-hamlet Peter. |
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| vegplot |
I thought it was about home brown cigars. | ||||
| Treacodactyl |
I'm slightly put off buy the phrase "eco", I think they should just refer to it as sustainable and makes me wonder if they are dreaming a bit too much rather than being practical. I'm also not keen on quoting chunks out of The Earth Care Manual, I would rather have the group say something in their own words.
Having said that it does sound like something along the lines of what I'd be interested in so I'll try to keep an eye on how it goes. Are you involved Peter, or have you been to any of the meetings? |
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| Blue Peter |
I think that the use of 'eco-' is simply because it's already in use with 'ecovillage', and this is supposed to be a smaller one.
I was peripherally involved with Trelay, and I guess that I am involved with this - though, at the moment there is (almost) no this. I know John and have discussed this with him, and I will join in with any discussions that arise. What 'this' becomes depends upon who joins and what they want. Whether I finally end up joining depends upon what arises. Of course, it's possible that nothing does arise. Peter. |
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| Clara |
I've registered my interest, it seems that the only way that I could return to the UK and keep the lifestyle I have here would be to join some kind of project. Before this came up I was looking for something like this but it is almost impossible to find anything out there in internet land that isn't about something that has already been done, as opposed to something you could become part of. If anyone has any other ideas of how to find sustainable living projects in the making I'd be glad to hear them. | ||||
| Treacodactyl |
I think I'll have a think about it with my OH over the Easter weekend. We should try and meet some of the people to see if we could get on with them and to see if they could get on with us!  The trouble is it would be very difficult to get away for three days with our animals and plants.
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| Blue Peter |
Indeed, we have a similar problem of two small children (and now an aged aunt who makes calls upon our time). I only attended one Trelay meeting, at least partly because it involved about a 6 hours each way train and bus journey, Peter. |
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| JohnB |
Oh dear, I spent ages trying to think what to call it, and it gets associated with cigars  . I'm not keen on "eco" anything as, like terms such as sustainability, it gets hijacked for all sorts of greenwash. It's probably going to be too small to be an eco-village, too small to have all the features of co-housing, community means so many different things to different people, and I didn't really want to spend ages running a competition to find a name  .
I also thought hard about using the quote from The Earth Care Manual, rather than writing something myself. In the end I decided to, as I didn't want to start this off as my vision, but rather as an attempt to create part of a vision shared by many people involved in Permaculture. As Peter said, what happens depends on who gets involved, and what they are looking for. An encouraging number have signed up so far, and I'm gathering information on what everyone is hoping to achieve, and what they can contribute, to see how realistic the project is. Maybe it will work, maybe it won't, but if things go well we should be in a much better position to get through the uncertain times we are heading into. So it's worth trying. |
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| Lorrainelovesplants |
I feel very uncomfortable about eco villages/hamlet 'things'.
I went last year to a 'transitions' group meeting/set up thing, and came away feeling quite uneasy, depressed and concerned about what I heard and the people I met. One of the people there was from Trelay... I spoke to her about apple trees, but she was trying to pump me for information relating to how they could use my poultry keeping experiences/ideas to basicallytake over the market I have. It was a very uncomfortable 'chat'. When asked for information re the eco hamlet, phrases such as, we dont let just anyone in and there is a strict vetting proceedure said quite a lot. 
The guy giving the transitions 'speech' was also painting such a picture of gloom that made you worry that listeners were going to go home and top themselves. 
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| Treacodactyl |
Sorry to sound over negative John, I do get a bit sceptical with eco, ethical etc but I agree it's very hard to come up with a suitable name these days. I am actually quite interested after reading that many people go on to form other groups or co-operatives. As mentioned, and as has cropped up in other threads recently, getting away for a meet could be a problem for us as we live so far from the SW, although we are planning to move down that way so might be able to arrange something. I suppose the best thing is to do is to register and see what happens. Good luck to you and everyone involved. |
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| JohnB |
If you feel uncomfortable about this type of thing, what do you think is the way forward? I'm looking on this as creating a neighbourhood rather than a community. When you live in a conventional house, you have no choice over who your neighbours are. You may have great ones, but if someone anti-social, or with totally different views, moves in next door, there is little you can do about it. I see this as a way of having neighbours who you have much in common with, and can co-operate with. I hope there will be diversity, with smallholders, market gardeners, people running small businesses, people working locally and retired people, with a mix of ages. I also see it as having strong links with the local community, and strongly involved with the local Transition Initiatives. I was involved with the group that bought Trelay from the very first meeting, and was involved in the decision to buy that site. I pulled out because some of their plans weren't right for me. Recently, I've also had some very good feedback on how things have worked out there, and what could be done differently, and this is all included in my thinking. What I'm working on is very much inspired by the views of people who didn't feel Trelay was right for them. I've been to the initial meetings of two Transition groups, and heard Rob Hopkins talk twice this month. The whole atmosphere has been very positive. We are facing a lot of uncertainty and potentially depressing times, so it has to be talked about, but Transition is about creating something positive out of it. |
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| JohnB |
Only a "bit" sceptical! I'm very sceptical! I'm not a salesman, but this project does need to be marketed to attract attention. So it needs some sort of catchy name that makes people look. I hope when they read the substance behind it they realise it's not greenwash. I'm looking for a new home, and want to live in this eco-hamlet, but I'm also very open minded about what actually happens. Maybe we will create this great place I want to live in. Maybe we'll come up with a model that can be replicated all over the country. Maybe it will get people together to do small projects all over the place. Who knows. At the moment, most of it is happening online, so at this stage travel to meetings isn't needed. I currently live in a van, wandering round the country, so could go anywhere to meet up with people. I'm currently gathering information through an online questionnaire, we have a Google group to discuss ideas, and I'll be sending out regular newsletters. What happens next depends on the outcome of this, and whether at least a few people want to get actively involved to help things along. So if you're interested in joining in, contact me through the web site, or PM me with your e-mail address. |
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| Blue Peter |
The following describes an opportunity to buy/build a property with 5 – 8 acres in Devon for just over £200K. The aim would be for 8 family units to put in about £200K each and become joint owners of the site and then establish an eco-hamlet. Our motivation is to develop low impact land-based rural businesses, though non-land-based ones would also fit in.
Comparing other properties on the market, this represents a good value offer. Clearly, £200K is still a lot of money, but for a large house (approx. 140 m2), work unit (approx 80 m2) and 5 acres (plus 3 acres of woodland), it is relatively cheap. This figure has only been achieved by selecting a sustainable custom modular building package from 'Place’ (e.g. Place ). In theory, it would be possible for someone to choose a more expensive build, but there might be problems with the visual appearance of different styles of building. Caveats: 1. These are ballpark figures for a pretty minimal build. They might go up (from ‘Grand Designs’, we all know how that works), they might go down (they don’t assume a reduction in price due to bulk-buy/bulk build). They also assume a pretty basic finish, and you might like a higher spec. They don’t include a wind turbine; they don’t include…; 2. The planning permission is contingent upon you running a business from the work unit, so you will need to have or want to develop a business, as solely or mainly your job of work. You will therefore need to work upon a business plan (e.g. see Lammas). At the moment, the business should be in Class B1 (a) and (b) (offices and R&D) or A2 (a) and (b) (financial and professional services) of the Schedule of the Town and Country Planning (use Classes) Order 1987. We would look to change this to allow agricultural use and processing. Having said that, there is a large (approx 400 m2) 6 bedroom house which as far as I can tell has no restrictions upon its occupancy. The figures assume 2 family units in this house (or one unit paying double); 3. The planning permission states that the units cannot be sold separately from the site, or leased for longer than 7 years. Therefore, you would not purchase your site, you would belong to, and indeed jointly own, some form of organisation (e.g. company, co-operative) which owned the site and from which you would lease a unit. That is you would be both (joint) landlord and tenant. Note that if you intend borrowing, this may affect your ability to borrow, since your lender would not have the security of repossessing the property in case of default, though possibly your share in the property could act as collateral. Lenders such as Triodos and similar might be amenable, of course. It may also affect some benefits (I have no idea). There might also be some issues with inheritance tax (agricultural exemptions). These issues are possibly open to negotiation with the planners, but do not assume that they will change; 4. The outline planning permission is for dwellings of about 140 m2. It may be possible to build smaller (therefore cheaper) units; 5. I am assuming that each unit will have a roughly equal amount of land (of the order of 5 acres); I am also assuming a shared amount of land (of the order of 3 acres per unit) for production of biomass for heating, but this would be subject to detailed discussions of plans; 6. As with any such purchase, the property may be sold before we can get our act together. The starting premise is that we would build a neighbourhood rather than a commune – you don’t have to cook for and eat with other members. Similarly, it is assumed that people would run separate businesses, though there is no reason not to work together, subject to planning restrictions. Given that the arrangement is a little like being both landlords and tenants in a block of flats, there would be a need for some community-wide meetings, decisions and work. It is possible that it would make sense to have central utilities. What happens next? If you are interested, please PM me and/or go to: Eco-Hamlet and contact us via the ‘Join Us’ tab. If we receive enough interest, then the next step would be to view the property and view a show home example of the 'Place' modular house. Assuming that enough interest remains after that then it would be necessary to: a) Discuss our plans with a planning consultant and thereafter with the relevant planning authority; b) Determine a suitable legal and organisational structure; c) Determine various tax and rating matters. All these factors interact, so it may take some time to achieve something that satisfies, us, the planners and the tax man. Almost certainly, all parties would have to make a contribution to pay for consultants, lawyers, accountants, etc. After that, a legal entity would be constituted, funds would be gathered, and an offer would be made. And then... Peter. |
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| Treacodactyl |
Is that 5 - 8 acres in total or per family unit? The types of business that you can run seems a little strange, but I suppose that's down to the planning authorities.
Edit, I've re-read and it's 5 - 8 acres per family unit. |
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| Blue Peter |
Yes, you're right as per your edit. Re: the types of business. I think that the plan was farm diversification - farmer continued to farm, but also got some rent in from other people using a spare bit of land. I don't think that the numbers add up, and presumably no one else does, since it has been available for quite a few years. (Though there aren't that many types of business in the classification - 10 max, off the top of my head - and I should think that all businesses need office space of some sort), Peter. |
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| resistance is fertile |
It's great to see these ideas getting aired.
I have to say that we all have issues with terms like 'eco-' ( and trust me I do more than most, working in Architecture! ) but in planning terms it is actually quite sensible.
'Sustainability' doesn't work within the planning sphere as well, because technically all development is theoretically required to be 'sustainable' ever since it became enshrined in the titles of the PPS's and so something is needed to simply and clearly identify this as going 'above and beyond'. Low Impact is the term being used alot as it has some technical background ( Fifteen Criterea ) recognised at least in part by the Planning system and is, of course, the basis for Policy 52 in Wales. I think that the idea at the farm is a fantastic opportunity for anyone wanting to move towards a more sustainable land based life, but, like many of us want to keep a hand in with other business or commercial interests. I look forward to hearing more about things as they develop and would happily help in whatever way I can from either a planning or, as we did with Lammas, a land use perspective. |
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| Blue Peter |
Is 'sustainability' actually defined in the UK planning system? Peter. |
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| resistance is fertile |
Technically, yes, within the single core principle of PPS1 and which in theory (and, dare I say, increasingly in practice ) should override many other objections or at least be a major Material Consideration within all UK planning applications.
Since PPG7 became PPS7, for example, it effectively insists all rural development be 'sustainable' so this muddies the waters of an application specifically calling itself sustainable (if you see what I mean?) |