There is some truth in that if we just looked at the current scene in isolation. Hybrids are an essential development phase that helps us explore technical development such as hydrogen/ICE, hydrogen/fuel cell/electric as mainstream production vehicles. It would be short sighted to dismiss the current models as they are the pre-cursors for what inevitably must happen.
But by using hybrid engines they allow for poor technology to be used rather than improved. As long as the car can switch to an ICE when the battery fails, runs low, more power is needed etc. there's no need to make the electric part of the system better. That's why I think that a better intermediate solution would be a light weight short range vehicle, the problem with that is marketing it to most people who assume they must always have a car capable of driving 1000 miles because they do that once a year and ignore the fact that for the rest of the year their driving consists of short journeys with an almost empty car.
jema
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There are a lot of advantages to a single car though, one load of insurance, mot, road tax etc.
I also don't think most people quite fall into that sheer divide between a lot of short range use and very occasional long term use.
For that matter I don't agree that this approach reduces the incentive to improve the battery side of things, having something viable in the here and now should surely increase the incentive of all car companies to come up with better tech?
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vegplot
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But by using hybrid engines they allow for poor technology to be used rather than improved. As long as the car can switch to an ICE when the battery fails, runs low, more power is needed etc. there's no need to make the electric part of the system better. |
I can see you point and it's a valid one. Hybrids are an evolutionary step and perhaps one that is not happening fast enough. What is hindering develop is lack of a sufficiently large market to drive innovation and that is hindered by poor infrastructure of alternative energy sources.
I don't believe chemical/electrical batteries will ever attain sufficient capacity and charge rates suitable for the majority of transport users.
paul1963
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I see this technology as a "halfway house". The obvious comparison would be with the railways where diesel replaced steam but is now gradually yielding to more efficient electric trains. For my money I will wait until the whole electric car thing is a lot more efficient 
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Hairyloon
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There are a lot of advantages to a single car though, one load of insurance, mot, road tax etc. |
Except for the MOT those advantages are artificial, and entirely within the control of the government.
Jb
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I see this technology as a "halfway house". The obvious comparison would be with the railways where diesel replaced steam but is now gradually yielding to more efficient electric trains. For my money I will wait until the whole electric car thing is a lot more efficient |
Although arguably a better analogy for hybrids would be that steam engines are replaced by a diesel pulling the same train _and_ a spare steam engine just in case.
For my money I'll wait until electricity generation in the UK costs a lot less than 0.43 Kg CO2 / KWh. Until then no matter how good an electric vehicle is it's not an environmentally sound choice (also they might be cheaper and better by that point)
pyrotech
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Zero emission motoring? Not a hope...
firstly the construction emissions have to be shared over the life of the car.. not exactly zero, then of course we need to charge it up.. aside from a very very few off griders I don't know of any body who could charge these beast up emission free...
Then of course, the UK is ready for a vast increase in electricity demand , to cope with the flood of these vehicles...
I'm not knocking the concept, just the hype.. anybody have any idea of how much additional electricity production would be needed if we all went to hybrids... or over to hydrogen.
We need to be making the same arguments about peoples employment that we make for food supply. Cut the mileage...
Cut the need to expend the energy in the first place.
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jema
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I wonder how useful solar would be as a recharge mechanism?
It would be good if you could park at work and get enough charge in they day for there and back.
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vegplot
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I wonder how useful solar would be as a recharge mechanism?
It would be good if you could park at work and get enough charge in they day for there and back. |
The user will often want to charge overnight - spot the problem. Also, the output of solar PV output rate won't often be sufficient for everyday use and the charge and demand rates are different orders of magnitude unless you have a particularly large solar PV array.
It would work if you had an intermediate store such a hydrogen generation plant for your hydrogen fueled fuel cell/electric powered car.
Jb
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I wonder how useful solar would be as a recharge mechanism?
It would be good if you could park at work and get enough charge in they day for there and back. |
Using the Nissan Leaf as an example. Nissan's web site quotes a charge time of 8 hours for home charging to full capacity using a 16 amp supply. Which is quite convenient as that is about a working day. So that's about 4 Kw which would require about 40 m2 of solar panels. Or putting it another way about 4 times the area taken up by the parked car. So I suppose you could construct a covered garage with solar panels on the roof and use that to get about 25% charging.
Range at full capacity is quoted as 109 miles, so range at 25% would be about 27 miles. So if your daily return journey is 27 miles or less it would be technically feasible.
NB. Assumes ...
- Nissan's figures are not overly optimistic
- It's not cloudy
- you don't work nights
Shane
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I interviewed a Chinese chap the other day who currently works in the US interfacing with PV manufacturers in China. Was an interesting discussion - after we moved on from discussing our mutual disgust at the west shifting their manufacturing emissions over to his country of birth we moved on to solar panels. He stated quite clearly that the current generation of panels consume far more energy to produce and ship than they'll ever save over a lifetime's service.
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jema
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I interviewed a Chinese chap the other day who currently works in the US interfacing with PV manufacturers in China. Was an interesting discussion - after we moved on from discussing our mutual disgust at the west shifting their manufacturing emissions over to his country of birth we moved on to solar panels. He stated quite clearly that the current generation of panels consume far more energy to produce and ship than they'll ever save over a lifetime's service. |
I'd like to see that documented.
jema
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http://www.metartec.com/10-solar-myths
Claims energy payback time of 1-2 years.
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Jonnyboy
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We've started using renault kangoo electric vans in work. £17k purchase price with government incentive, £70 quid a month on battery rental but the maintenance costs are 90% lower than a diesel and the payback is 3 years, over 7 years expected life they will save £5k.
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Shane
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I'd like to see that documented. |
Didn't write notes, I'm afraid 
The guy was an industry expert, with particular expertise in optimising the process, minimising energy consumption and minimising the wastage of raw materials, so I assumed he was fairly clued up.
vegplot
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The information I've come across says a 2-5 year payback in terms of carbon neutrality.
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jema
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As far as I can tell, they are made out of sand and can generate on an 18 panel system, 4kw in a good hour.
I'm generally quite a cynic, but I struggle with believing that they can be so energy intensive to make that they don't pay back fairly quickly.
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Shane
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Maybe the bee that he had in his bonnet about the west polluting his homeland was biasing his statements somewhat.
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Shane
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As far as I can tell, they are made out of sand |
Polysilicon, but said chap was describing the process by which it's made and it involves a lot of energy and a lot of nasty chemicals which generally have a high degree of wastage (although some companies are now improving the efficiency of their processes).
jema
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Maybe the bee that he had in his bonnet about the west polluting his homeland was biasing his statements somewhat. |
I'm going to have to step in a Moderator here, you have just broken one of the cardinal rules of forums/USENET and failed to defend an off the cuff remark to the death and beyond
Hairyloon
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As far as I can tell, they are made out of sand and can generate on an 18 panel system, 4kw in a good hour. |
Mainly sand, but don't the modern ones use rare earth elements which are very energy hungry to extract?
Shane
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Maybe the bee that he had in his bonnet about the west polluting his homeland was biasing his statements somewhat. |
I'm going to have to step in a Moderator here, you have just broken one of the cardinal rules of forums/USENET and failed to defend an off the cuff remark to the death and beyond
Apologies - I shall make sure I get all angry next time I need to defend a viewpoint that I heard from a bloke I met the other day. Would you like me to put in a few subtley-worded yet utterly ruthless putdowns that could be read in one of two ways as well?
vegplot
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Maybe the bee that he had in his bonnet about the west polluting his homeland was biasing his statements somewhat. |
I'm going to have to step in a Moderator here, you have just broken one of the cardinal rules of forums/USENET and failed to defend an off the cuff remark to the death and beyond
He's not slipped in a Nazi reference yet, there's still plenty of time.
Shane
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That's cos we deny their existence out here. Oh no - that's the other side of the Gulf.
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