[Stacey]

Great idea but the jails are overcrowded already

[Jonnyboy]

There's your problem. We either change the tarrif on less violent crimes, and there'll be a moral panic about that. Or we build more jails and imprison more of the population.

[cab]

I can see the point of that. But then again, I'm also reminded of all the times I carried a knife as a kid; might have been because I was hoping to find mushrooms on the way home, because I was building a model with a friend at his house, or because the apples on the best local scrumping spots had worms in. I wonder whether that would wash as an excuse (sometimes when I've got the mushroom knife in the rucksack, even now, I wonder whether in the current climate I'd be arrested for it).

[Stacey]

Surely a small price to pay if it resulted in fewer people being stabbed though?

[cab]

Maybe, although a price I'd rather not pay, and one I'd rather not ask others to pay either. Theres clearly a difference between a kid out on his own with a rucksack full of foraged fruit and a battered old pruning knife, and one on a street corner with a meat cleaver.

Laws need to be enforced, of course, but generally thats best done with some discretion; the risk with some of the hype surrounding knife crime is that police officers will be less able to use that discretion.

[cab]

Well, yes, my own fears are probably unfounded provided a tiniest amount of discretion is used (and even another kid acting like I did would probably get away with it)... And you're right, bread knife at 10:30 is probably out of the question. But you get my drift; there are valid reasons for carrying a blade (or a multitool with a blade on), and I'm rather nervous of sending out the message that to do so is always wrong.

[vegplot]

A zero tolerance helps cleans the street but it doesn't instill a culture of respect either in oneself or others. Zero tolerance approach often alienates legitimate users, I know a fair number of shooters/huntsman who have had knives confiscated despite having a 'good' reason. We've seen over zealous 'still being house trained' bluebottle who can't tell the difference between a socially inadequate chav and a rough and ready outdoorsman.

I agree in part to zero tolerance but it's certainly not a panacea to deal with media hyped murders, and an unbalanced society or politicians try to score on the emotions of the masses.

[vegplot]

It would be nice if that were the case but policies such as these are introduced at the national not local level and we end up with urban policies applying to rural societies.

Scene 1
Duty Sergeant: "Right lads, a new law we've got to deal with. PC Plod you're down on your arrest quota this month see what you can do"

[bagpuss]

unless the gangsta' could legitimately get away with carrying the first but not the second

these things need to be legislated in such a way to give the police discretion but at the same time at least within the M25 people being at least asked about carrying such knives is better than people getting stabbed with them

[Stacey]

It would be nice if that were the case but policies such as these are introduced at the national not local level and we end up with urban policies applying to rural societies.

[Stacey]

Yeah, they could be reunited with their parents in their 2nd homes

[Treacodactyl]

Sorry to shatter some illusions but there's plenty of countryside, towns and villages apart from Greater London within the M25. There's plenty of places to forage for mushrooms and plenty of shoots for example. I also gather that there's plenty of knife crime around the country.

I wouldn't have thought it would have be too difficult to target the type of person who's carrying a knife for 'self protection' or whatever excuse people use, regardless of where they are.

[Jonnyboy]

Recent 'shock' posters showed a victim with a swiss army knife in his chest.

[vegplot]

I stabbed myself in the foot once. It was a Darwin award nominee thing to do but thankfully not classified as a crime as no-one but my immediate family knew about it.

[cab]

So... Suppose you're on a council estate in urban London, someone is carrying a pocket knife, its a 15 year old boy. Simple, small, folding knife, lets say its a small opinel knife. The police stop and search him, he says its for cutting the stipe off mushrooms.

Do him for it or not?

[Nick]

It would be nice if that were the case but policies such as these are introduced at the national not local level and we end up with urban policies applying to rural societies.

Scene 1
Duty Sergeant: "Right lads, a new law we've got to deal with. PC Plod you're down on your arrest quota this month see what you can do"

[Nick]

So... Suppose you're on a council estate in urban London, someone is carrying a pocket knife, its a 15 year old boy. Simple, small, folding knife, lets say its a small opinel knife. The police stop and search him, he says its for cutting the stipe off mushrooms.

Do him for it or not?

[Treacodactyl]

So... Suppose you're on a council estate in urban London, someone is carrying a pocket knife, its a 15 year old boy. Simple, small, folding knife, lets say its a small opinel knife. The police stop and search him, he says its for cutting the stipe off mushrooms.

Do him for it or not?

[vegplot]

Agree completely. But unless it's written in black and white with well thought out guidelines you could end up with a police force making a literal stance which destroys the trust in principles behind such thinking. Good policing works well if it's social aspirations, but move the objectives, to say, satisfying political will then it's a completely different kettle of fish.

Ill thought out policies based on politicians emotional declarations of dealing with social issues can and do suffer from mis-interpretation and abuse.

[vegplot]

There are perhaps a handful of police in the whole country who would be familiar with technicalities of determining the difference and use of one knife from another. To the police a knife is a knife is a knife. "Let's sort this out at the station sir. You weren't planning on doing anything for the next 24 hours were you sir?"

I'm not painting the police in a good light but it's not often their fault. They're under a heavy paperwork load with obtuse and often unworkable targets to meet and the training is sadly been less than ideal in a lot of forces.

[Treacodactyl]

There are perhaps a handful of police in the whole country who would be familiar with technicalities of determining the difference and use of one knife from another. To the police a knife is a knife is a knife. "Let's sort this out at the station sir. You weren't planning on doing anything for the next 24 hours were you sir?"

I'm not painting the police in a good light but it's not often their fault. They're under a heavy paperwork load with obtuse and often unworkable targets to meet and the training is sadly been less than ideal in a lot of forces.

[vegplot]

Yes, it's a different problem and applicable to other things which is why introducing new laws or penalties to deal with specific offences don't often work as expected. There are sufficient laws in place to deal with this particular issue, breach of the peace, public order, offensive weapons etc.

It's been a potential offence to carry a screwdriver, for instance, without reasonable excuse for eons (originally to do with burglaries rather than offence against the person). Possession of an item with the intent to commit a crime. The police have the power already.

What I fail to grasp is why introduce new laws for specific offences when existing legislation caters for those needs. I sometimes think it's due to the 'system' not being able to think for itself and make judgments about how day to day policing should be done but rather leave it to the law makers to make those decisions.

I may have digressed from the original topic, apologies if I have.

[Treacodactyl]

Yes, it's a different problem and applicable to other things which is why introducing new laws or penalties to deal with specific offences don't often work as expected. There are sufficient laws in place to deal with this particular issue, breach of the peace, public order, offensive weapons etc.

[vegplot]

I agree with the principle but its execution and marketing need very careful thought to avoid alienating sections of the populace. It happened with stop and search where those targeted played the racism card (with just reason in some cases).

It can also make those who carry knives in their course of business feel like social lepers, in much the same way that gun owners have been made to feel.

[Stacey]

Perhaps it's a bit more chicken and the egg than that.

[cab]

That'd be nice.

Do you think thats what would happen? Genuine question 'cos I don't know, never having been apprehended by Plod for having a knife.

[Rob R]

Perhaps it's a bit more chicken and the egg than that.

[Brownbear]

That'd be nice.

Do you think thats what would happen? Genuine question 'cos I don't know, never having been apprehended by Plod for having a knife.

[vegplot]

That'd be nice.

Do you think thats what would happen? Genuine question 'cos I don't know, never having been apprehended by Plod for having a knife.

[cab]

In there lies the problem.

I dunno, maybe I'm just too cynical, but I fear that encouraging the police to prosecute people for carrying knives will lead to more people being scared into simply accepting warnings where they've got a valid reason to be carrying a knife. I accept that 'something has to be done', but without clear instruction to excercise some sensible discretion I'm uneasy with encouraging the Police to be too assertive in this area. Strikes me that the backlash in loss of public trust could be quite damaging.

[vegplot]

It's the point I was making, or trying to.

[cab]

Could well do

Thing is, even children have a need for sharp things in some of what they do. Scissors, a craft knife for model making, a pocket knife for foraging, a pruning knife for helping out in someones garden, etc. I never habitually carried a knife as a kid, but I certainly often had one for various valid tasks I was doing. It seems that while we now all want kids to go out and do positive things, we're so scared of them that we're going to take from them one of the most basic tools known, and something entirely necessary for a lot of such hobbies.

As an adult, I don't want children carrying knives. But, also, as an adult, I don't want children being restricted from enjoying the basic freedoms and responsibilities necessary in becoming a well rounded adult.

The obvious question should be 'why are you carrying that knife?', and the logical approach must surely be to punish those who have no valid reason. I genuinely don't know whether that's going to be how things are done, I fear that the backlash is going to be rather more severe than that.

[Stacey]

In there lies the problem.

I dunno, maybe I'm just too cynical, but I fear that encouraging the police to prosecute people for carrying knives will lead to more people being scared into simply accepting warnings where they've got a valid reason to be carrying a knife. I accept that 'something has to be done', but without clear instruction to excercise some sensible discretion I'm uneasy with encouraging the Police to be too assertive in this area. Strikes me that the backlash in loss of public trust could be quite damaging.

[vegplot]

B&Q's rather nifty Stanley blade type of knife has this feature.

[Brownbear]

Cosh gangs. Blakey boys. The Garden Twine Garotte Wars.