| Archive for Downsizer For an ethical approach to consumption |
| colour it green |
fattening weaners - financially viable?This is our first year keeping pigs - we have a couple of Berkshire gilts, and we regularly lean over the fence and admire them (although no whilst I have the flu) and say things like 'look at the hams on that'we are looking forward to eating them! whilst we said we would take the easy way this year - nto try and make it financially viable, but more see how we get on with keeping pigs.. its looking a bit tight that we shall be able do raise them and keep the costs under that I could buy them 'ready made' - even taking into account things like outdoor reared is it financially viable? and where should we look to cut costs? I figure we could get a better deal on pig feed... we could butcher them ourselves  - buy cheaper weaners next time...
is it possible and practical? |
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| Bebo |
We raise three at a time and generally get one free (or at very nominal cost). Butcher your own one yourself. It's much easier than you would think at first. | ||||||||||||
| Hill farmer |
Hi C I G ,
To be honest you wont make a profit pig feed is not cheap if you go for the compact high protein pig nuts. They do however provide the pigs with all of their dietary needs . Food waste is now forbidden so I cant recommend this, they love apples and as you are probably aware we have lots about right now, try a mill mix of crushed peas crushed oats and barley perhaps with some silage chopped in ?, it can be sweetened with molasses. It is a bit hit and miss to start with and you need to experiment. The more they can forage up from the ground they are on is also going to help. If you are only keeping a couple i would stick to the pig nuts , in the long run you can be confident you have given your beasts the best . Regards Hill farmer |
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| RichardW |
The trick is in the food costs.
Oh & living near a slaughterhouse. Using bought in pellets is the hardest way to balance the books but the easiest to organise. On a large scale the money is in growing your own feed. |
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| Rob R |
Re: fattening weaners - financially viable?
Without knowing what your costs are, it really is hard to say. Not feeding them as much is a good way- cutting back on feed quantity, but not quality, in the latter stages can save money & back fat. Cheaper weaners may be cheap for a reason, or you could get a more 'commercial' breed/hybrid. Let them drink/wallow in rainwater, rather than tapwater (and safer in the long run than stealing your utilities). |
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| colour it green |
we wont know the total 'running' costs till we get to the end of course, particularly as we dont know if we are overfeeding them yet!
but easy to spot at the mo there are weaners of traditional breeds available locally around the £35 quid mark, yet we paid 55. We knew it was more than average, but we went to a reputable local breeder.. etc, as this was our first time and we wanted as problem free as possible for a first go. we are using pellets to feed.. and buying from local agric merchants.. 6 quid/25kg - prolly could do better there.. we already have a rainwater system in place. we are fortunate to live fairly near a slaughterers we could save a bit on straw if we planned ahead a bit better next time. just wondering of those that do fatten weaners if they feel its a saving or not |
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| Rob R |
Well our weaners cost £40, so there's a bit of scope there, and they come with full post-sales back up.
Planning ahead with feeds & stocking up on things when they are cheap is the best way to go if you can, but £240/t doesn't sound too bad for per bag rates, might be worth enquiring for a full pallet rate for next time. Even haggling for a better rate on half a dozen bags at a time works too. |
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| Rob R |
Sometimes yes, sometimes no. |
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| Gervase |
As Rob says, it depends what you're comparing it with. Quid for quid you could possibly get the same weight of flaccid, anaemic and rubbery dead pig from a supermarket, but... And it's a bloomin' huge 'but'. |
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| Shan |
There are several points to consider:
1) You are not really comparing apples with apples. Supermarket pork has been raised as quickly and as cheaply as humanly possible, so yours is a premium product in comparison. You should be comparing it with what you would pay for premium pork. 2) Buy feed per the ton or half ton. It won't cut a significant amount off but it will help. If possible, consider getting a mill to mix for you. 3) Remember, your pig is not just pork joints. Each time you do something speicalist to it, you add value. So get cracking on with those parma hams, bacon and charcuterie! 4) Use your pigs to work for you. Get them to root up veg beds in preparation for planting. Get rid of nettle patches and dock patches and brambles. 5) Don't forget, the fat is a valuable resource. In times past, it used to be rendered and jarred because it is a neutral fat and would be used for confits, roasting potatoes, charcuterie, etc. The hard back fat can be sold to charcuterie specialists. |
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| bring me sunshine |
In summer, I only use straw for farrowing sows and their piglets. The rest get hay that I cut myself with the scythe. It's free and they don't seem to object. Come autumn, they'll all go straw again but the savings I make over the summer (lol) months goes a long, long way...
The quality is completely different and as Shan says, you can't compare your own home grown pork to the rubber you buy in the supermarket. Look at what you'd spend buying meat boxes from small-scale smallholders, that's where the real comparison lies. |
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| NeathChris |
You can cut costs but it does tend to cut on quality.
Your best bet is get good big weaners to start, a bred that grows well and eats well, will save you money. Breed of pig can be one of the biggest savings. Be careful with feed, your best with a pellet or nut as you know it will do the job. A cheaper feed can make them take longer to get to weigh and in the end offer no saving. |
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| colour it green |
yeh i did say
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| colour it green |
interesting. Yes I am incliend to stick to pellets at the mo - until we gain more experience - perhaps we could get cheaper if we looked around. We opted for Berkshires as a first go at keeping pigs because the don't have a reputation for being difficult etc and are a bit smaller than some breeds (or so i understand) - we really wanted to give ourselves the best break first time around - as I was a bit iffy about the whole keeping pigs idea and its new ground for us. so - what breeds would you recommend ? |
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| NeathChris |
All breeds are good at individual jobs. Berkshires are good in that they finish at lighter weights, some people take heavier but the genetic make up of them is for an ideal carcuss of 38-45kg dead.
What type of products do you want at the end? |
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| colour it green |
well, pork for roasting at the mo - but we have a notion to do more - erm charcuterie type things in the future.. hams, bacon, cured meats etc.. sausages.. etc.. | ||||||||||||
| NeathChris |
I would say your better with a more dual purpose type pig. Berkshires and middle whites would be no good for that. What about crosses?
Personally i dont think you can fault modern breed pigs. What about a Duroc, excellent carcuss and eating quality with intramuscular fat. Or modern crosses. Will grow quicker with a better carcuss and should be cheaper to feed due to the better feed conversion. |
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| colour it green |
ok thanks for that - plenty to think on for next time 
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| Rob R |
Then you really will be able to compare it like for like with the supermarket pork 
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| Green Rosie |
We did some figures last year - the two pigs we reared with our friends cost us 2.73€ per kilo - this being the weight of the carcasses (minus the head) and the cost of feed, bedding, wormers and misc items.
These are what we call "Happy Pigs" raised in a natural environment and giving a meat of really good eating qulaity. They were Tamworth x Saddlebacks. This 2.73€ was for all cuts from tenderloin down to liver. Yes, I could go to the supermarket and buy cheaper pork cuts but not the range that you get from a whole pig. If you were to add in ham, bacon, sausages (all of which we made) I would say our meat was cheaper. BUT - another year we could lose a pig and then of course you lose out big time. |
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| boisdevie1 |
Hi Green Rosie,
a question for you since I'm considering doing pigs next year (the non of Madame is getting weaker). Did you feed yours on pignuts? If so, how much do pignuts cost in France? Merci. |
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| Green Rosie |
Boisdedie1 - we feed a mixture of peas, maize and barley with added apples and maize cobs when in season. They also get to rootle round in large enclosure full of weeds/grass, have veg and weeds thrown over the fence from the veg patch and friends have been known to chuck old baguettes into them 
Our friends looked into the price of pignuts and decided this way was cheaper as the nuts here are expensive. |
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| resistance is fertile |
I think that if you want simple home pig keeping/pork raising to work then you need to come at this with some really basic questions.
Are you looking to just 'grow your own' pork etc (maybe with a bit of spare for friends and barter)? How much pork do you need to meet this need? What else are you doing that the Pigs can integrate with? One of the greatest things about Pigs is their ability to turn all sorts of things into meat, especially if there is no great hurry. If you are growing veg and fruit, have some rough ground spare (or ideally both) then Pigs can be a great benefit with weed control, rotavating, manuring etc as well as simply providing you with meat. They will turn a wide variety of unusable surplus and otherwise inedible material into both Pork and great compost! In terms of financial viability it is worth factoring these things in, for us they are one of the major elements of our on farm Pig economy as they provide a useful service and at the same time avoid the need for expensive bought in concentrates. Are you really on some time limit with how soon you need your pigs ready and what weight gain/conversion rate is imperative? If so why? Lots of books etc tell people how long a pig should take to fatten and what the best feeding rates to weight gain are, but dont often ask if this really matters to the backyard keeper, who may be better saving maney on feed bills in return for a more patient approach. It will certainly lower your £/Kg production costs as the time and labour cost factor is probably less critical than in commercial systems. Also I cant imagine if you start with a weaner that cost 40 or 50 quid how it would ever be financially viable, especially if you feed expensive concentrates, it must surely be for the fun or the taste of your own meat. Weaners can be got for far less if you enquire in the right places from people who may breed in a small way to get their own for free but who need rid of some of each litter. (If you PM me I can tell you several such folks!) these folks are maybe one step bigger than you but not into full breeding systems for lack of space or just through sustainable economy. Slow grown Pork tastes far better, just like slow cooked Pork  and if that slowness has meant feed cost has been reduced and other cross benefits have been gained then your 'holistic' financial viability begins to look a bit healthier, like your Pigs.
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| colour it green |
I take your point. Although one of the biggest reasons for us to raise our own pork is know that they had happy lives - and certainly ours are having a lovely time.. It's difficult to tell of course just how happy an animal is, but I reckon they need to do what comes naturally to them, so a pig should be rooting in the mud, wallowing and charging about happily.. which ours are. I cannot be *entirely* sure if I buy the meat from a small farmer, but I can do my research etc. I'm even less sure with supermarket pork.. the breed doesn't really factor into any of that. I guess the reasons to choose particular breeds are about taste, cuts, and supporting rare breeds etc. |
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| colour it green |
yes - a very good point. one vets bill or a loss of an animal and its a big financial loss. |
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| colour it green |
ok - very good point.. it might slower but cheaper in the long run etc... and of course the concentrates route does make it less sustainable... We raise lambs for the freezer, and they make a lot more sense - they turn grass into meat...
yup good point. we are on a steep learning curve at the mo, so I'm not going to make the leap into trying a different aproach until we have learnt a lot more.. but that might be a future plan. I just don't want to blindly assume it makes sense to raise pigs, when it might be just an expensive hobby.. it might seem like the wrong approach to some to worry about the financial side, but if it is possible to tick all of the boxes on moral/taste/sustainability/breed etc and still buy the pork cheaper - the I have to question if we should carry on with our plans. meantime a few have supplied me with their figures by pm, and its looking ok. |
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| NeathChris |
If thats regarding modern breds and taste, maybe try some, crossed with a traditional they make excellent tasting meat. Easy to forget nearly all traditional breeds have been improved with modern pigs.... cant be that bad then.[/list] |
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| Rob R |
My point, if I had to single out one in particular, was the need to be a Downsizer & to enable future generations to continue to be Downsizers. I understand that we can't all go the whole hog (excuse the pun) but think that supporting the 'right' businesses is a start, and the selection of your animals is a relatively easy one (compared with sourcing feed, for example). All breeds are important, including the 'modern' ones, which are becoming rarer as they have been superceded by the hybrids & composite breeds of large scale breeding companies. In a nutshell I am referring to sustainability- the former are sustainable, whereas the latter aren't, at grass roots level. There is little to be gained from copying the industry you are trying to get away from. As rif says, integrating the animals into your land and lifestyle gives more benefits than just cost & time. |
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| RichardW |
In my opinion the best weener breed for a smallholder is the one that is available locally at a good price. As soon as you specify the breed you increase the cost & distance you need to travel to get them. | ||||||||||||
| resistance is fertile |
Absolutely right
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| Rob R |
A very common sense answer Richard. Unless you happen to live next door to a micro-pig breeder. 
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| Ixy |
One thing to bear in mind is that although the more modern breeds do have better feed conversion figures, that's under 'optimum' industry conditions - face them with food that takes a bit of digesting and those figures drop, whereas a traditional breed, with better 'hind gut digestion' I believe they calls it, will deal with rougher (cheaper) feed better and be cheaper to keep for that longer period required for superior taste. The Trad. breeds were bred for exactly the cottage system, using up all the rough bits that we, or other livestock couldn't etc. | ||||||||||||
| Pel |
Though the welsh breed (a modern and rare breed) is good at digesting the rougher stuff, or at least the more traditional type, though saying that landrace x welsh did an ok job too, but as richard says best to choose the breeds local to you, i just happen to be in area with nearly every breed and cross available to me, and the welsh happen to be among the cheapest to buy (and is a reptuable breeder) and cheapest to raise.. ok thats comparing to an oxford sandy and black, rather than say a landrace x welsh. (dont have any large blacks locally though  )
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| NeathChris |
Dont totally agree with you Ixy. Modern pigs will digest just as good as the traditionals in my expirience. And cannot agree at all with the longer period required for superior taste. | ||||||||||||
| Ixy |
Fair enough if you don't, but comparison of ability to digest rougher feed (and still perform to full potential) is not the sort of thing you can see if you only keep one type of pig. I notice very much in the poultry the stark difference between compulsion to forage and subsequent performance in hybrids and trad. breeds.
Age of animal is widely acknowledged as an important taste factor, and I know that our pigs taste more than the 4/5month old hybrids did where I used to work. Like the difference between mutton and lamb, or veal and beef. My veal was second to none for texture, but I've just killed an animal with a further 8 months on those and the difference is unmistakable. Basically, you can't have it all ways - if you want quick growth and superior muscling, you can't feed a poorer diet. If you want sustainable keep and full flavour, it's got to have time. |
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| Ixy |
I realise I'm biased though; I like strong flavoured meat, I like really beefy beef, chickeny chicken and porky pork. Some people like flaccid anaemic meat they don't have to chew. I also like my animals to be as cheap and sustainable as possible to keep. | ||||||||||||
| NeathChris |
[/quote]but comparison of ability to digest rougher feed (and still perform to full potential) is not the sort of thing you can see if you only keep one type of pig[quote]
We have had every breed through here apart from mangalitza's. All reared the same, and to be honest all taste fantastic. We find that the moderns taste just as good as the traditionals with a better carcuss. Maybe try a modern breed reared in a traditional way, tastes lovely. younger pigs taste sweeter, have a beter texture and are more succulent. Running older pigs is ok, but it doesnt give an optimum product. If it did we'd be eating cull sows as we do mutton, you cant compare pork with hogget, mutton etc. The piork carcuss gets worse as it gets older. |
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| Rob R |
No it doesn't; maybe that is the difference between modern & traditional breeds (or maybe it is the fact that the longer the animal lives in such a rearing system, the worse it becomes). We have only had that myth fed to us since quick pork became the commercial norm in the UK. Those cultures who have long curing traditions favour cull sows for the very best parma-type hams & even over here culls can command high prices when porkers are going for next to nothing (at least they do in northern marts, where most of the culls go to Cheale Meats). Some of the best pork I have ever tasted came from a 14 month old Large Black boar, whereas pretty much all of the things I had learned from years of working with GWP [generic white pigs] told me that it should taste terrible, but it didn't, far from it. |
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| NeathChris |
Rob, i deal in cull sows and boars and i know exactly where they go and for what. They end up in lower end of the market processed products on the continent that are not very good to say the least. The price of cull sows and boars much depends on the demand across the water and the euro value. Prices are up now due to both these.
Even traditional breed culls go the same way. I know one person who this year has dealt and put through over 300 GOS alone. If they eat so well why dont we use the carcuss for pork then?? |
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| Rob R |
Simply because the way in which we rear pigs in this country it is more profitable to finish them quicker (or rather it is too expensive to keep them for longer feeding predominately high-cost cereals in capital intensive systems). If you're also a dealer Chris, I expect you'll know how much of a motivation profit is, and that it is carcass or carcase.
As you say, the price over the water dictates such things, because other food cultures value these pigs more than we do. If it was that they enter the lower end processed foods only then the buyers would surely go for the cheapest option & there wouldn't ever be a such a price differential between pork & culls. If you look back a little further than your own lifetime you find that 'traditional' values are often quite different from what the modern markets/industry suggest is best. Rediscovering these values is what Downsizer is all about. |
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| Ixy |
I think that quicker finishing pigs purely benefit the farmer/supermarkets etc, not the consumer. It's all about quicker turnover and higher yields and nothing more.
To be honest, my *ideal* system would be a securely fenced woodland, stick the pigs in and leave them to it for at least 18 months the thought of that pork makes my mouth water already. i'd much rather eat a cull than a porker - customers have just been conditioned to think that young, bland and tender is the 'optimum product' as you call it.
I'm not against modern breeds. I was going to buy a large white boar recently. They have their place. But I object to the suggestion that by eating an older rare breed animal you are settling for second best, far from it. I respect the french and italian's attitudes to food and they favour the older pigs, which tells you something. I also prefer a strong pork flavour for chinese cooking, as it blends with the sauces, rather than just soaking them up and acting as nothing but 'matter' for them to be delivered to your mouth on. I also think for smallholders, traditional breeds perform as well in a truly traditional system as they are ever going to, whereas with modern breeds they won't perform to the full so any reason to opt for them over another breed is negated. I also think we have very different ideas of what 'traditional' pig keeping is. |
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| colour it green |
so, a lot of it comes down to personal taste then.
also the (one of the) traditional set ups where the pig gets all the kitchen scraps, is no longer legal. |
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| Rob R |
Yes, I think regulation has erroded our food culture over here. I was not so much thinking of the kitchen scraps rules, but of curing- on the continent they seem to value the 'traditional' methods of hanging a ham in a barn for several years, whereas over here you'd be shot for that if you tried selling it. In this country you'd need a sterile, temperature controlled room for that kind of thing, which makes it into a totally different product (I can imagine what our EHO would say to such a plan- after he'd finished hyperventilating). |
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| resistance is fertile |
Im liking this discussion
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| Ixy |
I don't mean table scraps, I don't really consider table scraps and ideal diet for a pig anyway, I just mean rougher foods - grazing crops such as kale or lucerne. Not enough is made of the trad. breeds' ability to digest that stuff. | ||||||||||||
| mochyn |
So could I sow e.g. kale on the ground they've turned over and leave them forage it when it grows? | ||||||||||||
| tahir |
I'd sow a mix of stuff in that empty bit, not just kale. Could you grow garlic pigs if you let em loose on a garlic field? |
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| mochyn |
Cor wow: I bet they'd taste good! And you could be right: a nice mix of stuff perhaps. Don't know enough about that though.. Ixyyyyy.......... |
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| bring me sunshine |
Not mine, they won't eat it! I'm tempted to plant courgettes for them next spring as the pigs love them. I was going to plant brassicas for them, but as mine all failed in the garden, there's no way the pigs are getting some until I've sorted mine out! |
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| tahir |
....and Rob..... I'd guess you'd want stuff that provides protein and fibre and would stand at least a few weeks of pigmunching. I reckon turnips and other rooty brassicas could be good with some broad/field beans maybe? We went to an organic farm near Nick where they'd just baled their bean silage so they don't have to buy soya protein. |
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| mochyn |
I want more land and a bit of flat would be nice...
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| Rob R |
If I were to grow crops specifically for pigs I'd definitely include some protein crops- legumes mainly, and (the mixture depending upon when you planned to 'harvest' it) maize, roots, cereals, brassicas, etc. Currently the pigs here are enjoying the results of the fruit season, but dairying, eggs & veg growing/processing are important too. When the cows return to pasture they go into the cattle sheds to help with composting,as well as being in the veg garden preparing for next year. | ||||||||||||
| tahir |
But if you sow thickly and roughly, some of it'll come up. You're talking about the bit that's already had pigs on aren't you? Bulk seed is available from Kings, £15 minimum order I believe. | ||||||||||||
| tahir |
Could only work at mochyns if she sectioned bits off. So 2 plots with crops maturing at different times, in which case I guess maize with a legume would be a great autumn crop. |
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| colour it green |
so - if you were going to grow food to feed your pigs - how much land would you need per pig?
i have heard of growing J.artichokes for them... but the reason they make people fart is because they are not digestible.. would pigs manage it better than humans? |
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| Rob R |
Ohh yes
We're experimenting with a five year crop of lucerne this year (for pigs and cattle), although it's not had the best of starts, but hopefully next year the lucerne with smother the weeds more. Barley undersown with clover was good stuff, but quite hardwork combining it with the amount of green material in the straw. However it made excellent silage, with the sheep grazing the stubble. The grain yields were not so good, with it being a difficult field for weeds & getting off to a poor start, but the added benefits made up for it over a 'conventional' barley crop. |
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| Pel |
what about a nice barley pea mix or if you have clay/not much soil land oat and pea mix, either combine or turn into silage, i know sheep and cows love the stuff as a wholecrop silage, and perhaps pigs would eat it too??
Problem with things like stubble turnips is that they have a high water content, so you cant count them towards much of your pigs diet, great for keeping them occupied, hope they don't break wind how lambs do when they have been on the turnips
Their is a mill near me that does a moist feed techincally for fattening lambs, and a friend near me feeds his wild boar crosses on it (plus a little barley and whey), they do fine, but wouldnt like to see a more 'modern' pig compared to a wildboar (so everything other than maybe a tammy or KK) as you'd have to add many other things to be upto a pigs nutritional requirements. The friend also fattens for at least 9 months for pork and longer for bacon.. sounds right up Ixy's street and its only £80 a tonne.
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| Ixy |
chucking a trad. breed full of pellets purely seems to grow fat on them. I do like abit of fat, but not inches of it! you can grow a bit of feed for your pigs but if you're short of land, still feed extra, it's not like you have to do either or. Every little helps....
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| mochyn |
Has anyone built a combine that works on 45 degree hillsides? I get the jitters just watching the neighbour on his tractor and his slopes are lees than ours! Could get the old chap out with a scythe, I suppose... The oat/pea mix sounds a good idea, though.
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| Pel |
Be even better if you could grow triticale and pea mix as the pigs would make better use out of the grain rather than a crushed oat, but oats do seem to grow well in not the best conditions, unlike barley/maize etc. The pigs did seem to like the mix even if their poo is a bit grainer and then the weaners go and find it and re-eat it (though the older pigs did not do this gross habit).
You could see what your neighbour thinks of the idea, though you could always have a scythe party when your harvest is ready. |
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| Rob R |
Yes, will try to find a picture. Edit: Linky & another. |
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| Ixy |
what are we, slaves to oil or something? Make the pigs go out there and get it themselves - why should we slave away to carry food to tem when they would enjoy doing their own harvesting anyway? This is where trad. breeds and foraging ability comes into their own
also, not only do you get the use of the top of the plant, it all goes into them, roots and all, and you have weed free dug-over land to work with next year without having to lift a spade... |
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| mochyn |
Now that sounds like an excellent plan. The'd love it! I just wasn't sure how much of the plant they'd be able to handle, but when I think of what they've done to a field of bracken with no harm to themselves...
Right, off to find suppleirs of the right sorts of seed.... |
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| Ixy |
if you're not combining you can grow a weird and wonderful combination of plants aswell.
Ours have absolutely reduced next year's veg patch to nothing but bare earth ...perfect as I hate digging 
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| mochyn |
that second one's impressive! It would cover most of my field but I wouldn't be able to get it through the gate... I think I'll do as Ixy suggest and get the pigs to do the work themselves. |
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| Rob R |
Now all we need is a pig that'll do the washing up & we're sorted
I'm setting that up for an Ixy punchline, aren't I? |
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| ninat |
The thing that really scunnered us is the cost of slaughter & butchery- £27per pig just for the kill, butchery almost the same again if the slaugherthouse does it, and if you ask the slaughterhouse to send them to your local butcher who is a bit cheaper, they charge £3.50 per carcass for transport!
We're a captive market here but next time would seriously consider the butchery myself if it's going to be for home consumption- there are some really good videos on line- our biggest problem is not having a decent mincing machine. |
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| colour it green |
i recommend buying an old kenwood chef, 701, and a mincer attachment - they ar egreat old machines and do the job well and you can pick them up relatively cheap secondhand |
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| Rob R |
I have one of these which is excellent for the home butcher. It's not up to continued use, but is meaty enough to handle a bout of home processing every now & then, and should last many years.
I prefer a hand cranked sausage stuffer though, it doesn't have any speed control and makes them a bit mushy. |
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| RichardW |
Lidl & ebay do one like that (but plastic case) one but about half the price. We used one for about a year to do up to 6 pigs at a time all into sausage it just takes a long time. Will be fine for house sized batches.
PS we only used it to mince the meat, we used a mixer & stuffer for the other processes. |
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| ninat |
I guess when you offset the cost of butchering these things would soon pay for themselves |