hoverfrog
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felling very dead oaksI've been detailed to take down 3 oak trees and turn them into firewood.
From my limited experience of felling well-dead trees I remember them being hard as nails (mine were elms) and the normal rules did not apply! Cut out the wedge... cut through from the other side, then the blasted things sit hard as rock on the hinge... and finally topple in random directions when cut all the way through 
Any specific tips for cutting dead oaks??? Apparently directional felling is not an issue (phew!)
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dougal
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Isn't oak more valuable than firewood?
Its fairly easily worked when 'green', however...
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Treacodactyl
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| dougal wrote: | Isn't oak more valuable than firewood?
Its fairly easily worked when 'green', however... |
If they've been dead for a while I wouldn't expect they would be much timber value. Even freshly felled oaks in good condition aren't worth as much as you would expect.
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hoverfrog
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round here they grow oak for firewood!
Problem is that the trees are standing seasoned oak
There must be a knack to felling trees like that - so has anyone got any hints or tricks to share?
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crofter
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Surely if you take out the wedge on the side you think it is most likely to fall gravity will do the rest? If there is no lean could you get a rope or wire fixed higher up and winch it over? Or use wedges. I would not saw all the way through if the tree doesn't begin to move. Even if it does go over in the direction you expect, they can still bounce back a lot further (and faster!) than you would think. Make sure you have a clear escape path to retreat along. Be aware that dead wood has more chance of falling on you from above, especially if it has been dead for some time - such branches are known as "widowmakers" so be careful.
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hoverfrog
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that's the problem with dead wood - certainly with elm! - the tree stands as steady as a rock on the hinge.
I've been reading up though - google is my friend 
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tahir
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I did speak to a couple of tree contacts, both said the same "why fell, they're such a great wildlife resource"
So tell me why they have to be felled and I'll tell em to shut up and just answer the question.
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hoverfrog
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why fell?
Hmm, they are in the owners' way. Don't ask - sheep farmers...
It's darn cold here. My friend needs firewood and was offered the trees if she can shift them.
"you don't lend out your chainsaws, do you?"
"no. definitely not."
"well can you come and help me with (read 'deal with') these trees???"
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vickersdc
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Felling Dead Timber...Hi there,
Firstly, can I just put in the proviso that felling dead trees can be quite dangerous as they can crack out the hinge before you are ready - thereby losing the control that you would normally have with a 'green' tree.
I would suggest that you take time to put in escape routes from the tree stem before doing anything else.
Right then - if you can, get a rope up the stem so that you can pull the tree over (that ensures your felling direction. Long rope - try to maintain 2x height of tree between stem and vehicle / people).
If not, then try to utilise some high lift wedges - these can be put in the back cut after the sink (wedge / gob) cut has been made. Also (depending on the size of these trees) use the method for medium fell, rather than the standard cut. Or use the split level cut.
The sink cut should be about 25% of the tree diameter in depth, hinge about 10%-ish and PARALLEL to the back of the sink.
Put in the back cut, knock a wedge or two in and hammer them a bit at a time. You need to be REALLY careful about this, as the timber in the hinge will not flex as it would with a 'normal' tree. Hence the escape routes and ideally tying a rope to the stem and something else (tractor / Land Rover...?).
Hope that helps,
David.
PS: let me know if you need more help.
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tahir
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I've told em 
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hoverfrog
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thanks David. All sounds reasonable.
Yes I know it's going to be tricky... hence the original question!
Not sure I want my 4x4 attached, so I'll use somone else's 
Think I may need some longer ropes, and escape routes in all directions.
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dougal
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If you attach a rope somewhere up the tree, and then fasten it, securely, that will mean that the tree would have to break itself (or the rope) to fall *away* from the rope. (And, near upright - when it *starts* to topple, it ain't going to break the rope.)
You've narrowed down where it can go by at least 50% of the 360º circle.
Attach two such guide ropes, at 90º to each other, and you've narrowed its wanderlust right down...
Right. A question for the lumberjacks!
When you cut across (towards your notch) -- why do you cut 'flat'?
If you cut *downwards* towards the notch (ie started the cut maybe 6" higher), and aimed for the top face of the notch, rather than the point, then it surely couldn't "fall backwards"... (I'm assuming that the tree's centre of gravity isn't off to one side, in which case, go with the flow, its only going to want to go one way!)
OK, you lose a few inches if you were planking the trunk, and you ought to do an extra cut to level off the stump, so its not going to be done commercially -- but wouldn't it be *safer*???
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vickersdc
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@dougal: the idea is that the rope is attached as high up the stem as possible (a running bowline is good for this) and then tensioned in the direction of fell. Normally adding a bit of tension helps when the back cut goes in (opens up the cut), but you might want to be a bit careful not to overdo this with dead wood (the hinge may just snap).
The cuts we use to fell trees have changed over the years, and are different to those that used to be used with saws & axes. They've been refined and now we tend to use..
-basic felling cuts (sink cut & back cut) for small trees up to guide bar length, that are fairly even weighted;
-split level cuts (sink cut with a back cut that is actually made up of two cuts) for trees that are weighted against the direction of fell;
-forward leaning cut (dog-tooth cut) where we put in a sink cut, bore cut and then cut the resulting tag allowing a forward weighted tree to fall.
Then there's the medium fell cuts, and large fell cuts, and cuts for those trees that are very small...
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RichardW
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Vickersdc do you think you can explain all those cuts & uses in a non tecnical way for people new to felling?
Thanks
Justme
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hoverfrog
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I think the general principle is that if you don't understand what he's on about then you shouldn't be contemplating doing it! 
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vickersdc
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Hi Justme,
I reckon Hoverfrog has hit the nail on the head really! I teach this stuff and a course on felling techniques is a week long! It's not just about the actual cuts, but also about the tree (type, characteristics, where the weight of the canopy is, etc.). Then there's the legal / environmental stuff to consider as well.
However, for small trees (up to about 8" diameter) that are fairly evenly weighted you can just use the basic felling cut. First, you must clear an area around the tree and give yourself a couple of clear escape routes in case things go wrong.
Decide on your felling direction. The side of the tree that faces this direction is where the sink cut goes (also known as a wedge-cut or gob-cut). The sink cut is made by two cuts - the first, top, cut is angled down about 45deg and the second is a flat cut that meets up with the first. This should remove a wedge shaped piece of wood from the tree, and should be about 20-25% of the depth of the tree.
This sink cut provides you with the felling direction.
In this case, the back cut is a single cut, made across the back of the tree and parallel with the back of the sink that you just made. The back cut is stopped **BEFORE** you cut in to that sink cut! You are aiming to leave a parallel hinge of wood, about 10% of the tree's diameter.
To go in to all the vagaries of the other cuts would probably fill up the Downsizer servers!
Hope the above is a help anyway.
Happy New Year to you all.
David.
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RichardW
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| vickersdc wrote: | Hi Justme,
I reckon Hoverfrog has hit the nail on the head really! I teach this stuff and a course on felling techniques is a week long! It's not just about the actual cuts, but also about the tree (type, characteristics, where the weight of the canopy is, etc.). Then there's the legal / environmental stuff to consider as well.
Hope the above is a help anyway.
Happy New Year to you all.
David. |
No it was about terminology. I thought that you had used more than one term for the same cut but as I dint know the other terms I was not sure. How much does a felling course cost to attend? Would it include actual felling or be all theory? I assume that they are normaly held on your site. I have picked up some thing usefull as I alwasy cut the horizontal face cut (see another term for the same thing) then do the diagonal cut as that was the way I watched a pro do it & also how a book on the subject said to do it. having done a quick search they now recomend to do it the other way round but dont say why.
Justme
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dpack
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falling things
be safe
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RichardW
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| Justme wrote: | I watched a pro do it & also how a book on the subject said to do it. having done a quick search they now recomend to do it the other way round but dont say why.
Justme |
have just found a site that says that if you do the top cut first its better for two reasons.
1, So you can see when you have a cut thats length is 80% of the trees width (NOT 80% CUT THROUGH TREE you should be 20-25% through the tree).
2, When cutting the second cut you can see down the first cut so can see when they meet so that you dont over cut & ruin the hinge.
Justme
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thewoollyshepherd
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Hello
How big a girth have these trees? It is stating the obvious but felling trees is specialised and dangerous esp if they are big or dead!!.........How do I know?, well my other half is a practising qualified tree surgeon! If they are big it is VERY important to reduce the weight at the crown by arial cutting (cutting whilst up the tree) and this is a job for a specialist. Once the weight is reduced the tree will be much more likely to fall when the felling cut is made...........and more importantly fall in the right direction and not kill anyone by jumping back!
There are too many people being badly injured trying to fell trees with little (or too much!) knowledge! 
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Simon
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Missed this. Where are the trees? Your place or Virolle?
We have some friends at La Crosiell sur (how do you spell it) that used to be tree surgens in the UK. I could ask them to come and look at your trees. I am sure they would be most happy to offer advice for felling.
S
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