| Archive for Downsizer For an ethical approach to consumption |
| Mary-Jane |
Fighting a losing battle with thistles......worse luck. Two of our three paddocks are now now almost overun with thistles this year - it's never been this bad. Gervase has tried to strim them down - but there are now so many we're being taken over. It's having a serious effect on our land management with the sheep.Anyone got any ideas on what we could do to tackle the problem? It needs to be on a pretty big scale. |
||||||
| cab |
If its creeping thistle (sounds like it) then its a bitch. I seem to recall finding a fact sheet on organic control methods at the HDRA, hold on...
(google-fu) Here it is: http://www.gardenorganic.org.uk/organicweeds/downloads/creepthistleleaf.pdf Doesn't help all that much though 
To be honest, before cutting into it at any further at all you might want to consider glyphosating it, if thats to your tastes. Better doing so prior to fragmenting the roots, better still before Gervase strimmed it. |
||||||
| MSASTLES |
We were having the same problem so we had a local contractor spray them off with Field Marshall. It killed the weeds and left the grass. You have to keep stock off for 6 weeks, so we sprayed the fields in rotation. They wook much better and 98% of the thistles are gone.
Regards MS |
||||||
| marigold |
Can't help really, but I guess whatever you do it's best to do it before they set seed... | ||||||
| cab |
It is, but beware that the soil will be full of seeds anyway. Whatever you do, you want to be ready to deal with the next flush of seedlings that will emerge. The Garden Organic help document there suggests that you can graze the seedlings, but I'm not sure how you'd find a proper lasting solution. Presumably seeding with grass and wild flowers while and after grazing? |
||||||
| Mary-Jane |
Hmmm...whatever we do it's got to be pretty bloody drastic. One of our local farmers is popping in (hopefully) today to have a look whilst I'm at home. In effect we've lost a paddock...and being a bit over stocked with sheep at the moment, it's not funny. 
Hey ho. |
||||||
| Jonnyboy |
Sounds like a goer, anyone else heard of this stuff? |
||||||
| Mary-Jane |
I tried Googling Field Marshall...but kept getting Monty 
|
||||||
| Nick |
Aye, same here. | ||||||
| Mary-Jane |
I've PMd MS for possible details... |
||||||
| marigold |
Maybe he meant the tractor not the spray 
http://www.tractordata.co.uk/field_marshall/pages/field_marshall_3/index.htm |
||||||
| Mary-Jane |
Ooooohhhh - I see... 
|
||||||
| Northern_Lad |
Is there nothing ready for harvest yet? |
||||||
| Mary-Jane |
They're already in the freezer. Next batch due around September. |
||||||
| Nick |
When's he visiting you? | ||||||
| judith |
Sending your guest off with the lambs is just a tad drastic, don't you think? |
||||||
| Nick |
I was worrying for their safety, to be honest. | ||||||
| Mary-Jane |
I won't worry unless he turns up in a dark blue boiler suit, with a bottle of Chianti under his arm...
|
||||||
| Mary-Jane |
But back on thread for a moment...Huw, one of our local farmers (who does our silage for us) has just been round. He's going to come over with the big tractor mower (Field Marshall?) and cut down all the thistles. I discussed spraying with him but he/they don't spray. To be honest no-one does around these parts because there are no crops - other than beet for animal feed and the silage of course. He said thistles always seemed to be a problem wherever there are mainly sheep... 
Dunno what else we can do - other than get at 'em earlier next year. |
||||||
| cab |
Borrow some cattle or goats to deal with the thistles for a while? | ||||||
| Northern_Lad |
Borrow something that eats thistles? Can you home some pigs over winter? |
||||||
| Mary-Jane |
There always used to be cattle on the land until we took it over - I guess that explains why there were never thistles as well? This is the first time sheep have been on the land (for past 3 years). Getting a goat or two would be good...but there's one small fly in the ointment and it's got a lime covered beard and is currently up Snowdon with a bunch of inner city students from London. But then again - perhaps I should that as an 'opportunity'...he, he, he... 
I wonder if Anna-Marie is around and has any spare goats 
|
||||||
| Mary-Jane |
Hmmmm...too big an area for that. |
||||||
| Northern_Lad |
Depends how many pigs you get. |
||||||
| Mary-Jane |
*Gulp* 
|
||||||
| judith |
I wouldn't use pigs (particularly in the winter) unless you want to harrow and resow the whole area afterwards - they will wreck it.
Regular topping has kept our thistle patch under control, i.e. it isn't getting any bigger. Can't say that it is actually on the run yet, but I'm hoping that a few years of this and it will get the idea. Our thistley area is much smaller than yours though. |
||||||
| Mary-Jane |
That's kinda what I had in mind too Judith. |
||||||
| Northern_Lad |
that's exactly why I thought of them - clear all signs of life out of the field and fertalise it too. You should then spend a few years without any great issue. |
||||||
| judith |
Not immediately. They will get the roots of existing plants, but you still have to work through all the dormant thistle seeds that are waiting for their chance. Also doesn't help much with the "what are we going to give our lambs for dinner?" conundrum. |
||||||
| Mary-Jane |
I thought our lambs were dinner...
|
||||||
| Northern_Lad |
Ah, yes; now I've seen Sean the Sheep I understand that sheep and pigs don't get on too well. |
||||||
| Rob R |
Re: Fighting a losing battle with thistles...
You might find that it's the other way round. Cutting thistles off by the floor does little to weaken them as they're vigorous little devils, it's best to take the flower head off & leave the root system with a huge leaf mass to maintain. We tried glyphosate one year & it had little effect by the following season, but timely cutting had a significant effect, as does grazing with the cattle, as they trample them (helps if you put the water or mineral in the middle of big patches) whereas sheep nibble off the grass by the floor & leave the thistle with the competitive advantage. The garden was full of thistles though, but running the old spots through it they have eaten the tops & dug all the roots up! A lot less coming through now
|
||||||
| Mary-Jane |
Re: Fighting a losing battle with thistles...
When would you advise Rob? |
||||||
| Behemoth |
Prickly, invasive and domineering, hmmm, these character traits seem familiar.... | ||||||
| Nick |
Re: Fighting a losing battle with thistles...
Whenever he needed my help. Unless you've missed a comma and were directing the question towards Rob? |
||||||
| Mary-Jane |
|
||||||
| Mary-Jane |
Re: Fighting a losing battle with thistles...
What?
|
||||||
| Behemoth |
Re: Fighting a losing battle with thistles...
Amended to aid comprehension. |
||||||
| Mary-Jane |
Re: Fighting a losing battle with thistles...
 Not needed thank you. It's a continual sentence - a question being asked of Rob.
|
||||||
| Behemoth |
When would you advise Rob?
When he asks. |
||||||
| Mary-Jane |
Grrrr...in context, as a response to his statement, with emphasis on the 'When' there is no problem. |
||||||
| Nick |
Then you should have emphasized the 'When'. Perhaps the use of *s might be of use to you in future. | ||||||
| Nick |
Re: Fighting a losing battle with thistles...
Thanks for that Behemoth. I was wondering why Mary-Jane was asking us when we should offer advice to Rob. |
||||||
| Mary-Jane |
Oh p*ss off then. I'm going back to my marking...
|
||||||
| Behemoth |
Don't fancy the chances of the poor b*gg*er on the top of the pile. | ||||||
| Northern_Lad |
What did I say? 
|
||||||
| Rob R |
Just after flowering but before seeding, when they've put everything into the flower the root reserves are most drained. Fencing the worst patches off from the sheep might help too, to let the grass block out some of the sunlight from the cut thistles, and let them back in when the rest of the grass reserves start to wane.
The following year we had a line down the field where the hedge trimmings had been & it hadn't got cut, the cut thistles were half the height in the cut bit & struggling to compete with the grass. This year the sheep have grazed it over winter & the cattle will go in at the end of the week. Last year though was the first time we've made silage from it, always too many thistles before. 
|
||||||
| Marionb |
We've only got sheep and have the thistle problem..... I tend to go round the field with a spade, digging the thistles out at ground level. It doesnt seem to help much as they seem to be increasing rather than decreasing but that could have a lot to do with next door neighbour adjoining ours that is absolutely FULL of thistles which are usually not cut till they've seeded and all the seed has blown right down across our field.
However, this year, for the first time ever he has actually topped the thistles before they seeded ( he did it last night )
It will be interesting to see if we have less thistles next year. |
||||||
| dougal |
... and this time at least, I don't think he's intending to refer to Gervase being in Snowdonia... Isn't a *tethered* goat (or several) the natural answer to a thistle problem? Seriously! IIRC they eat the things for fun. And many goat keepers might be pleased with an offer of some free temporary grazing. And as regards the overgrazing problem, wouldn't a barbecue be the beginnings of a solution? |
||||||
| Rob R |
I doubt it. Not many thistle seeds will not germinate in the first year, most are added to the seedbank to come when they get an opportunity. Most thistle spreading is by the roots, so in chopping the top of the root up you may actually be creating ten times as many plants. The root either needs digging out completely or the top growth managing to weaken the root & remove competitive advantage. |
||||||
| Marionb |
So do you mean it would be better to just cut the thistle an inch or two above ground level rather than actually dig in and slice it off right at the root? | ||||||
| alison |
My friend, at the abattoir, says you should top thistles in the rain, as this helps rot the plant quicker, weakening it even more. | ||||||
| Nanny |
donkeys enjoy thistles, they like to nip the flowers off just as they are at their best
and of course tiggers like thistles..you could have a tigger and your problem could be solved hope this helps...... p.s. our problem is docks..........several of oour fields have more docks than grass and until they are properly fenced we can't introduce the goats to deal with them |
||||||
| sean |
No, no, no. Tiggers don't like thistles, or haycorns, or honey. They like extract of malt. |
||||||
| Marionb |
Nanny.... whats a Tigger..... 
|
||||||
| Nanny |
ummmmmmmmmm......................... do you not know your winny the pooh? they are very bouncy creatures.............ok perhpas they aren't too keen on thistles but i am sure they would have a go till they find out they are too hot............... |
||||||
| Marionb |
Oh, I see.....
I thought Tigger was one of your animals....
|
||||||
| Nanny |
much as rolf would love to have one, no we have no tiggers here.... donkeys yes, tiggers are a different thing |
||||||
| Mary-Jane |
Good grief - I go off line for a few hours and when I come back I find you've all been on the dried frog pills in my absence...
|
||||||
| Cathryn |
Our horses eat them (how - what's this rubbish about them having soft mouths ) Have I suggested this before M-J...?
|
||||||
| Rob R |
Ideally leave as much leaf as possible but chop the flower heads off, but that's not always practical, especially if you're doing is mechanically, but if you chop a thistle root in two it'll thrown up at least two new shoots. | ||||||
| bodger |
When we moved to our present house, we had one field that was a mass of creeping thistles. I spent hours in it with a small hand sycthe topping them.
I to have been told to do them when the weather is wet so that the roots rot. I've got them sorted now but it took me a long time to do so. These days I have a cheap macheti literally tucked away in the gate hole to each field so that whenever I have a walk I have one in my hand to lop the head off anything that I don't fancy
|
||||||
| Mary-Jane |
What a simply marvellous idea Bodger...I shall follow suit immediately.
|
||||||
| Mary-Jane |
Well, Huw from one of the farms in the village is coming up today with his big chopper (fnarr, fnarr) on his tractor to sort 'em out...and it's steadily piddling with rain here. Hopefully that will help. |
||||||
| marigold |
Suddenly I'm terribly GLAD I don't live in Wales.....
|
||||||
| Mary-Jane |
I have no idea what you mean marigold...
|
||||||
| Marionb |
Hmmm that could be some of my problem since I'm sure I have split the root on several occasions
However, I like to cut them off near the ground so that the sheep can then eat the long grass that has grown round the thistle due to the sheep not touching it when there was a thistle in it. Seems like I cant really win..... Oh, and a lot of them dont seem to get flower heads, they are just leafy thistles.....
|
||||||
| Rob R |
They're really sneaky- they'll shove one out on the one day you don't check them
|
||||||
| Nanny |
moving back several pages
is it not a good idea to have a few pigs, put them in the field and let them do piggly type things and clear everything out? have to say it is something we were considering doing in one of the paddocks....once the fencing is sufficient of course p.s. are dry frog pills good for what ails you then mary-jane? |
||||||
| Rob R |
My pigaerator protected all the fences
|
||||||
| Nanny |
gonna have to ask..................so what is a pigerator? we were assuming a line of electric fencing a few inches above ground level at about snout angle |
||||||
| Rob R |
Sorry, pigavator
Four gates containing a couple of pigs that can be moved regularly- the intensity means they get nearly every root, rather than ranging over a wider area & inevitably missing some. |
||||||
| Jamanda |
Where did you post the picture of the pigavator Rob? | ||||||
| Nanny |
that soudns about right for us ..sort of porcine strip grazing i guess we did vaguely think about wild boar but rolf reckons you have to have 6 foot fencing which is impractical so regualr porkers would be the answer |
||||||
| Rob R |
I'm looking for it...
Here it is: http://forum.downsizer.net/viewtopic.php?t=22700&highlight=foot |
||||||
| vanessa |
Traditionally, thistles were cut down in July ... for exactly the same reasons as the "when it's in flower" theory earlier. It's used up all the stored energy in the root by then. Oooh, being a Somerset lass has finally proved useful!!
|
||||||
| thewoollyshepherd |
We have thistles too..........lots! We have topped them in July pulled them in June and July hand sprayed odd single ones and its a real battle! Pigs........no they tend to help propagate the things if our pig fields are anything to go by!
We resorted to a weed wipe with a selective herbicide just for thistles on our worst field in the end last year, and this year its been fabulous! not a thistle in sight and we have made haylage on the field!......full of the usual wild flowers! |
||||||
| tahir |
Our sheep field's got thistles in it, mown em several times, keep coming back, stronger if anything. | ||||||
| Mary-Jane |
I know - they're awful Tahir. The problem is that the lambs cut their mouths on them, making them more susceptible to orf. We had our paddocks all topped (cost £40) but the thistles are still growing back. I think one of the earlier suggestions is about right - you have to catch them early enough in the season. | ||||||
| Rob R |
tws: What was the herbicide you used? | ||||||
| Cathryn |
overgrazing with horses seems to have been very effective here
|
||||||
| Rob R |
After six weeks of rain the cattle were stripping the stalks bare 
|
||||||
| Jamanda |
Did you know, that along with ragweed, broad leaved and curled dock, creeping thistle and spear thistle were made illegal in 1959 as injurious weeds. Trouble is no one told the plants
|
||||||
| Rob R |
They're subsidising ragwort production these days, aren't they?
|
||||||
| thewoollyshepherd |
One supplied by our local environmentally friendly contractor.............I will ask what it was............I'm going to get the other fields done next year..........they are as pointed out a week that is supposed to be controlled..................shame no one told the soil association this! |
||||||
| Rob R |
I don't understand? Speaking of which: Weed and Scrub Control on Organic Grassland |
||||||
| Paddington Bear |
Rob R said:
B****r! Having spent this morning trying to hoik out thistle roots with a slasher after cutting them down to ground level I'm sure quite a few were split instead of uprooted. Talking of Orf is there more about this year with the wet weather or is it that there's just more thistles? |