| Archive for Downsizer For an ethical approach to consumption |
| Fee |
FlyingFor the last 3 or 4 years, we've opted to holiday in Britain, and not to fly anywhere. However, this year we're getting itchy feet to go abroad, and not places you can get alternative transport to very easily, Iceland or the US.I've got family in Virginia, in particular my Auntie, who's getting on and I doubt will be coming over here this year as she's just had a big op on her knees and isn't in the best of health at the moment. I'd love to go over and see her, and my Uncle, in a different part of Virginia, and to do New York, and possibly hire a car or greyhound it across to San Fransisco over 3 weeks. Then we've both fancied going to Iceland for a long time. I know this carbon off-setting is a load of rubbish, though I'd still do it anyway, can't do any harm, can it? But it wouldn't ease my conscience in any way, and I'm not sure I can do it, fly that is. I've noticed a trend this year that people who are usually set against flying have been saying "sod it" and flying somewhere for a holiday. If we do fly this year, I've told Paul that we're not flying (unless absolutely necessary) for another 4 years. Are you thinking about flying somewhere this year, after years of holidaying without flying? There's so much of the World to see, and I want to see a lot of it, but without flying it becomes very difficult. What can we do? |
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| judith |
It's a difficult one, isn't it?
Back in the old days, before we had animals and still had money  we used to go away a couple of times a year at least. Since we moved here 5 years ago we have flown twice. With my dubious maths, I make that a 5-fold reduction in our flying.
In any other area - energy consumption in general, not buying stuff, etc, a reduction of that magnitude would be seen as something to cheer, not criticise. We are imperfect beings, so I am happy to applaud the fact that you haven't flown for the past four years, rather than do you down if you do fly this year. |
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| dpack |
looking into the cold mist outside i could happily head somewhere warm at the mo
i had no heating for 2 years and recon that offset a trip to greece tt and myself have plans to travel in a boat which is a bit less messy one of my mates travels by bike (1500 miles is a normal for him )or drives a freight ship for ocean crossings but it takes time and has hazards other mates have done years traveling by horse van as a traveller there are many options but as a holidaymaker it's fly or margate |
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| Chez |
Re: Flying
We did  .
But I made up my mind it would be the last time I would fly for recreation. However. There's a possibility that Arvo may end up going to some interesting places with a theatre tour over the next couple of years - Japan, for example. It's going to be difficult for me NOT to want to join him for a few weeks after the shows and explore. It's NOT a hard decision at all, looked at logically - flying is bad. We shouldn't do it. QPD. But it's still *there*, isn't it? 
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| lettucewoman |
er....
sorry.... I don't think the carbon offsetting is rubbish - iceland has been deforested hugely over the last decades and centuries so the company I am offsetting to are replanting there...which is a good thing. We are only going for three days and it's highly unlikely we will be able to afford to go anywhere else for a long time - unless its work. |
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| lettucewoman |
....and no I haven't gone yet!! Still packing....
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| Treacodactyl |
I've not flown for years and doubt I will again. Even if you fly once every few years it's still a huge amount of carbon emissions on something that's not essential. On the other hand the more I think about things the more I think that there's little we can do about global warming so you might as well enjoy yourself while you can. | ||||||
| Fee |
I know, that's my problem, I don't think I can do it. |
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| Chez |
And *nothing* is that 'essential', really. It's all very well me saying that we fly for work - but theatre isn't really *essential* is it? *ducks to avoid flack from all the arty types* |
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| Mrs Fiddlesticks |
Tis difficult. We took the boys on their first foreign holiday about 3 years ago. It was only my second time of flying and I have to say I'm not keen on flying in the first place.
Tim on the other hand has travelled extensively both for work and hobby and is keen to show me some of the places he's been to which would be wonderful. I'd like to show the kids some 'culchur' and do think that travel is a wonderful thing on the whole. I'd be more keen if I could travel by boat or train though. More than anything its the cost of flying that puts me off (which is a good thing from an eco perspective) on the basis that say we can have a lovely week on the Isle of Wight and put in a wood burning stove or we can use up the same amount of money and fly abroad for one week. I resent paying that sort of money for one week's holiday. |
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| JB |
Ah, but sometimes it can be cheaper to fly somewhere and have cheap accomodation / food / services / whatever rather than to stay in the UK and pay more for those. (just to be devil's advocate) |
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| Frewen |
We decided not to fly anymore - and so far haven't missed going abroad (8 years)
Chrispystix turned down a conference recently because it would have entailed flying (even though it could have been done other ways  ).
But then - if I had a relative who I didn't see very often and whom I might not get to see again I would feel very torn 
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| Mrs Fiddlesticks |
a) not for 4 b) wouldn't like cheap food and accomodation etc. I'd rather have a week here and not have to penny pinch (so give the cook a rest and eat out more) |
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| Treacodactyl |
No but some things are less essential than others. I don't think someone could argue a life support machine isn't more essential than a Wii for example. It's also the vast amount of energy flying takes up at once that's a concern. I know that the 'essential' tag is often overused, one of my pet hates at the moment is people complaining about heating costs and being shown on the TV in a flimsy blouse or T-shirt. |
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| JB |
Well I'm not suggesting cheap food and accomodation as in cheap'n'nasty but cheap as in 'the local economy in Bucketflightistan' means that a good meal out costs only a few dollars. |
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| Rob R |
Re: Flying
No, and I doubt I ever will. I don't think there's enough lifetime to see parts of the UK I've never visited. Anyone want to buy my offsets? I have a few saved up
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| Treacodactyl |
Re: Flying
That makes you sound like a shallot. |
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| jocorless |
This is a good thread because I'm fairly sure we all feel that there are too many flights but when we want to visit friends and relatives how do we get there ?
I want to go to New Zealand to meet my family over there - I've been drawn there for years and years and would really like to go whilst my Mum is still alive as I can then share my visit with her as she is unable to travel back there herself due to her health - She left NZ when she was only 5 and has always wanted to return - I also want my kids to share in that visit However to get there - we are going to have to fly and I'm not happy about that - At the moment its irrelevant because we can't afford to go anyway but should the time come when we can afford it - its going to be very difficult to say no |
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| Nick |
If you take the view that there's a fixed amount of fossil fuel and we are going to use it all up, and it's going to create X amount of extra CO2, thus causing warming and problems, the question is in how much time are we going to do this. We're not going to stop burning oil, gas and coal, are we? So, do we burn it up and have fun, as you suggest, or miss out on seeing the world and put off the inevitable for perhaps another decade? As for your other choice, tough one. I'd choose Iceland over the States, but that doesn't take into account your relatives. perhaps she could meet you in Iceland? (It's a fantastic place. And you get to boat with whales. Expensive tho. Very expensive.) |
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| Cho-ku-ri |
Wouldn't it be great if they could do commercial tall ship trips to destinations like Iceland, Faroes, Sweden, etc? | ||||||
| Fee |
I'd choose Iceland too, but that would be purely for pleasure, as would the States, but a different kind of pleasure. I really don't think my Auntie will be travelling anywhere far this year, sadly
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| Vic |
Course, you could always fly to the States via Iceland... Iceland Air (or whatever they're called) are often strangely cheap, as you have to change planes there and lots of people don't like that. So you might be able to factor in a small stopover.
Just call me Devil's Advocate! |
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| Fee |
 I'll call you something, I don't think it's an advocate 
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| Rob R |
The speed at which you burn it is a big factor though, the world can cope with us burning fossil fuels & recycle all the carbon produced, just not at the rate we've been doing it for the past 2-300 years. There's also the question of how much fossil fuels we 'save' for essential uses like sanitation. These days you tend to hear a lot about cutting down the release of carbon but very little about increasing the carbon capture from the atmosphere.
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| Nick |
Oh, agreed. My point is the speed we're going to burn the bit that remains is going to be really, really quickly, if we all cut back, or really, really, REALLY quickly if we carry on as is. Will it make any difference, save a decade or two? We're NOT going to cut back to the levels we were at 300 years ago, so it'll last a further 2000 years.
It's why carbon offsetting is fairly flawed. Oil has been there millions of years. Replacing it with trees that will be there for 20, 30, 100 years will only stall the issue for our grandkids. Will that be enough, or should we worry about how we're going to cope with the warmed world, instead? |
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| Rob R |
I don't know, but that extra 10 or 20 years could be the time we need to develop the technology to cope with the big lights out, so every little helps I guess. | ||||||
| Andy B |
We did a Nile cruise, first flight/ foreign holiday for 4 years! Twas good a many levels and for our over pampered kids to see abject poverty was a bit of an eye opener. Plus they are desperate for tourists. In a few years time will, hopefully, try Canada as i have a passion for the history of the French/indian, seven years war. Montcalm and Wolfe. | ||||||
| ros |
your last point isone of my pet gripes too. We haven't flown for a holiday for 10 years, partly becuase OH hates flying but mainly becauseI'd rather stay in Devon for my holiday than anywhere else 
I have flown for work a couple of times in the last few years, I hate doing it and luckily, for buget reasons we do much much less of it now. The advent of videoconferencing and working from home to cover the time differences between here and asia or america has made the need to fly for meetings etc. not really excuseable. I will sometimes have to travel to oversee stuff, but I count that as getting on for essential. I'm sure that an awful lot of business travel is considered a perk and much more is done for that reason than is needed. How can you ask people not to go to Florida for their holidays when they've seen their boss fly t mtgs and conferences several times a year? |
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| Jamanda |
We haven't flown since before Ben was born - eight years. But we are hoping to to a short haul to Ireland next year. But I think that will probably be it for a while. | ||||||
| Aeolienne |
Unitil then you'll have to settle for a passenger ferry or a freighter: http://www.seat61.com/Iceland.htm |
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| gil |
Next time I go to Orkney, I'd like to fly from Kirkwall to North Ronaldsay | ||||||
| Aeolienne |
Is there no ferry link? |
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| Rob R |
Ooh yes, Fee, that's almost Iceland only better
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| Aeolienne |
Does anyone know anything about the environmental impact of helicopters? I'm assuming that as they don't fly as high as jet aircraft they wouldn't have the same lasting harmful effects on the upper atmosphere. Is that so? | ||||||
| gil |
The ferry makes one round trip a week. The plane is daily, and cheaper. That's no excuse, and I do like ferries. Just dunno whether I'd want or be able to afford a week on N. Ronaldsay if I had to do B&B, rather than camping on Mainland. |
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| sean |
Dunno. They burn a phenomenal amount of fuel relative to payload and distance travelled though. |
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| Aeolienne |
Iceland has pledged to become the world's first hydrogen-powered economy. Nice idea, but there's a flaw: what's going to replace aviation fuel? (There are no railways in Iceland, so the country has come to depend on domestic air travel.)
From the Indy (or rather the Sindy) again... Four nations in race to be first to go carbon neutral Iceland, New Zealand, Norway and Costa Rica are all hoping to turn their economies green, but the challenges they face are formidable By Geoffrey Lean and Bryan Kay Sunday, 30 March 2008 It's the race for the greenest of the laurels, the contest for the ultimate ecological accolade. Four countries are competing to be the first of the world's 195 nations to go entirely carbon neutral. They make a disparate line-up of runners, comprising the world's most northerly and southernmost independent countries, its third largest oil exporter, and a state that long ago dispensed with its army. The starting pistol was fired last month in Monaco – better known for its gas-guzzling Grand Prix than for such a determined race in the other direction – at the annual meeting of the Governing Council of the United Nations Environment Programme. Iceland, New Zealand, Norway and Costa Rica formally signed up to go zero carbon, joining the Climate Neutral Network launched at the meeting. Achim Steiner, UNEP's executive director, calls it "an idea whose time has come, driven by the urgent need to address climate change and the abundant economic opportunities emerging for those willing to embrace a transition to a green economy." He spells out the diverse challenges facing each of the contenders. Norway's main issue, he said, was "emissions from oil and gas", whereas most of New Zealand's pollution came from agriculture. Iceland's "central challenge" was "transport and industry, including fishing", while Costa Rica faced the special circumstances of being a developing country. In fact one UN member state already claims to have beaten then all. The Vatican announced last September that it was becoming the world's first – but is widely held to have cheated. It said that it was winning the prize by offsetting its entire emissions for 2007 though planting trees to restore an ancient forest in Hungary. But critics say that the true champion will have to achieve carbon neutrality at home – and point out that the Holy See has failed to count the carbon emitted by its travelling officials, or emissions from its buildings outside the Vatican City. All the main contenders get much of their energy from renewable sources. Iceland has gone the furthest, already achieving almost complete carbon neutrality in heating buildings and in electricity generation. Its greatest asset is disclosed in the name of its capital city, Reykjavik, which means "bay of smokes", referring to the plumes rising from its hot springs. Such geothermal energy now heats it and much of the rest of the country. Only 1 per cent of its homes are heated by fossil fuels, and 99 per cent of its electricity is generated by geothermal and hydroelectric power. "But we have not entirely kicked our carbon habit", writes its Environment Minister, Thorunn Sveinbjarnardottir, in the forthcoming issue of UNEP's magazine, Our Planet. "Our fishing fleets and our cars are still running on fossil fuels. Our car fleet is one of the biggest, per capita, in the world. And Icelanders tend to like big cars, as any visitor to our country will soon notice." The country will give people discounts to buy eco-friendly vehicles and fit fuel cells to fishing boats, aiming to reduce its relatively small national emissions of carbon dioxide by 75 per cent by 2050. On the other side of the world, New Zealand's Prime Minister, Helen Clark, has already set her country the goal of being the world's first carbon-neutral country. It aims to generate 90 per cent of its energy from renewable sources by 2025, and to halve its transport emissions per head by 2040. But the country has a particular problem with agriculture, which accounts for half its emissions of greenhouse gases. Norway has set an even more ambitious target, aiming for carbon neutrality by 2030, despite being the world's third largest oil exporter. It already gets 95 per cent of its electricity from hydroelectric power, and heavily taxes cars and fuel: a 4x4 costs four times as much as in the United States. And it is planning to capture and store carbon in old North Sea oil fields. But Frederic Hauge – the head of Bellona, the country's largest environment pressure group – is sceptical. "We are a nice little country of petroholics and that has made us lazy", he says. On paper at least, the poorest of the four countries is in the lead – Costa Rica plans to reach its goal by 2021. It has just released a plan of action, which relies heavily on planting trees to soak up emissions. Last year it planted five million of them, a world record, and the banana industry – the country's largest exporter – has promised to go carbon neutral. However, its number of cars has increased more than five-fold in the past 20 years and its air traffic more than seven-fold in just six, making its task far harder. |
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| Helen_A |
It'll take me a few days to dig out - but we had a serious look at getting to iceland on public transport a couple of years ago and its *very* doable, and relatively 'cheap'.
Basically you train it up to aberdeen or inverness (or the other one thats even further north but is tiny, think its the northernmost station there is here), then ferry up the isles and then onto iceland from there - there are a couple of ferry routes that do oslo - place at the top of islands - iceland. You arrive on the other side from Rejivak (?sp - sorry brain is in freeze today) and can then bus it or hire a car to make the journey over. There is another service that goes between that port and Rej. as well. Full details of the route(s) are in the Lonely Planet guide
eta - when I last did the 'journey plan' I worked out that it could be 'done' in 36 hours, with the last part of that being all on the northernmost ferry route tween scotland and iceland, but that allowing for getting a later train or travelling from further south than London a better bet would be for around 50 hours, getting the sleeper for the first stretch into scotland. Helen_A |
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| bagpuss |
Possibly a good place to post this
this weekends the guardian put together the top 100 flight free holidays some are ridiculously expensive both in terms of time and money but some see quite reasonable |
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| lettucewoman |
Can anyone tell me how much fuel a ferry would use to get to iceland? What about the train up to scotland? or the car? Or the several ferries one would have to get if one went from scandinavia or holland?
Just a thought. |
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| Aeolienne |
BBC poll: Should we build a third runway and sixth terminal at Heathrow?
Yes 51.23% No 44.40% Not sure 4.37% 26736 votes cast as of this evening. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7107693.stm I've already posted a link about travel by sea to Iceland - has anyone bothered to look at it? |
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| sean |
I looked at it but only in a cursory fashion because I'm not planning on going there. | ||||||
| JB |
According to those maps the M25 would be inside the airport perimeter! |
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| JB |
A good site for getting anywhere on the planet without flying is http://www.seat61.com/ | ||||||
| Aeolienne |
The Iceland link was on that site! |
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| Chez |
Sorry, me being unclear - I meant in a 'flying around the world' travel context. I completely agree with the rest of your comment. |
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| Jonnyboy |
You just keep me hanging on...
On the topic in question I find single issues can be too divisive. A blanket 'flying is bad' doesn't take into account any other mitigating factors. The simple fact is that the western lifestyle is 'bad' As long as people are doing things in moderation then go for it. Yes we have a responsibility but we also have a finite time here to live and enjoy our lives. Our parents have ****ed our pensions so let's try and enjoy life sensibly rather than throwing on the hair shirts eh? |
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| Aeolienne |
But if you're going to ration your flying, why blow your ration on a flight to Ireland when there are plenty of ferry links to get you there instead? According to the Man in Seat Sixty-One, the ferry option is not only greener, it's cheaper too:
http://www.seat61.com/Ireland.htm |
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| Jamanda |
Because to get from Devon to Donegal you have to drive up to Morcombe, spend a night in a horrid B&B, get the ferry then drive across, or you go from Fishguard and have to drive all the way up Ireland. We have done both. Neither are satisfactory with a sproglet. Next time we will fly to Exeter to Belfast and hire a car there. | ||||||
| Jonnyboy |
Don't get me wrong, having dated and then married an irish lass I've used every ferry route to ireland many, many times. But, it is longer, slower, harder to get to the terminal, frequently nauseating and comparable in price to a pre booked airline ticket. In fact if you take the car the price can be horrendous. we were quoted £400 for a return crossing in august. I'm sorry, but if I was spending a week or less in ireland I'd fly. |
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| Jonnyboy |
I do door to door, ask Nick.
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| sean |
Well, if you're offfering to drive us to our friends' place in donny and ferry us around while we're there... |
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| Jamanda |
I'll hold you to it! Do you do as far as Killybegs? |
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| Jonnyboy |
Hell yes, there's a superlative fish&chip shop in the harbour. Worth the drive alone. |
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| Aeolienne |
What about the overnight ferries from Liverpool? |
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| Jamanda |
It's still a long way from Devon to Liverpool. And then you're still down in Dublin, we need Belfast. |
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| Jonnyboy |
Liverpool belfast ferry ain't bad, boats are pretty new and great in rough seas.
You get a free meal but it's 10 hours so a bunk is essential, even on the day crossing. And again, it's 10 hours |
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| Jamanda |
Well, we'll look in to all again nearer the time. |
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| Aeolienne |
No, there are ferries from Liverpool to Belfast as well as Dublin. And the City of Culture is less than five hours away from Exeter by train. I did it myself last year, en route to a National Trust working holiday at Strangford Lough. (This despite the Trust's advice to be met at Belfast International Airport!) |
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| Nick |
I've done the (port north of Liverpool) to Dublin overnight. It's the freight ferry, goes around 10pm, get sin around 6am. And you get to share a room with a burly trucker.
Free food, too. |
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| Barefoot Andrew |
More to the point, have you been looked after by People In Northern Ireland?
A. |
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| gnome |
Hey! the B&Bs in Morecambe aren't that bad. well, not all of them. lots of people holiday in Morecambe still - there's a lovely view, and the air is good. | ||||||
| Chez |
I believe it's BIRKENHEAD to Belfast, actually . Arvo's done it a few times. You could always break your journey here - only an hour and ten minutes away!
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| gnome |
why are you people even here? how can you claim to be environmentally responsible, and then claim it's okay to fly to somewhere perfectly reachable by ferry, just for a holiday? you haven't had a holiday abroad for six years? there are many people who have never had a holiday abroad (myself included). you can offset it by paying to have trees planted somewhere that has been set aside for growing trees anyway? does that mean if I spend the next 15 weekends working for the RSPCA, it's morally okay for me to bet on a cock fight or go badger baiting?
saints preserve us from middle class morality - you wouldn't know true integrity if it came up and bit you on the ass |
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| Nick |
To get advice on how to improve my family's food, mostly.
Downsizer has always been inclusive and a broad church. It's not a requirement that you're working class, a tree hugger, able to knit, a vegetarian, anti-capitalism or anything else. |
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| sean |
Cheers for that constructive post gnome. Barely an unjustified assumption in there at all. | ||||||
| tahir |
Do you get bonus points if you're all of the above? |
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| Nick |
Yeah, give me your Club Card number, and I'll stick them on it. | ||||||
| tahir |
I've no idea of your personal circumstances, for most of us here it's all about moving in a particular direction, and not by any prescribed path. I and my family spent 2 weeks in Morocco this year, totally unjustifiable ethically isn't it? |
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| Rob R |
It's not?  *throws 'teach yourself to knit' out of the window*
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| sean |
If you manage to knit a vegetarian you get a free flight to Australia. | ||||||
| Nick |
If you take one with you (one way), I'll get you upgraded. | ||||||
| gnome |
look, i'm not saying you can't fly wherever you want to - you earned your piles of money, you can spend it how you like - just dont sanctimoniously brag about how "green" you are because you aren't. i am sure that everybody who boards a plane has a very good reason and can justify it. a pop star on tour is never going to get to his destination on time if he doesnt fly. a businessman has to be in japan by tomorrow morning to close that deal. cargo has to be transported, transplant organs need to get to their destination quickly. but if you really want to make a difference to the environment, is a having to take a bit longer to get your holiday destination, and posibly paying a little bit more really too much of a sacrifice? | ||||||
| Nick |
What's it got to do with money, or class? Flying's CHEAPER than most other forms of public transport. I'm not sure I've ever bragged about being green. I'm pretty sure I haven't. I KNOW I drive far too many miles, in too big a car, and have a computer on when I don't need it, and have a bigger house than I need, and so on. I'm not especially proud of it, mind, it's how things are. This place is a broad church and long may it remain so. |
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| Rob R |
Careful, you'll exclude atheists. |
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| jocorless |
Calm down hun - we all know we don't do enough and we make compromises everywhere - but at least we are aware of doing it and we are all on different paths with hopefully similar goals in sight We are not all middle class and loaded - you know I'm not - I'm permanently skint! - the number of different backgrounds is astounding |
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| Simon |
Don't do it then |
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| Chez |
I don't think anyone is being smug enough to claim to be environmentally responsible, are they? Just that we're doing our best to work towards a more responsible lifestyle. Obviously we *could* all go and live in a hand-build cob-cottage in the middle of a wood somewhere and eat nothing but kale and acorns all winter - but it would be rather impractical for the entire population to do it. We live in the world as it is, not as we'd like it to be; and part of that is having friends and family a long distance away, jobs that require our presence and not much time or money to make the journey to see them. And, to be honest, the lights are going to go out whether or not we choose to fly to our holiday destination or go by ferry - whether we have family or friends to visit, or whether we are just going for 'fun'. Bully for you if you can live up to your principles - you must be a singular person, if you can. |
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| lettucewoman |
Maybe not - but I know enough not to be rude and judgmental about people I don't even know. Be careful whom you judge so harshly. You may not be as perfect as you appear to think you are. |
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| lettucewoman |
Piles of money? What gives you that idea...some of us live on a very small amount of money- but saved up to go somewhere we have always wanted to see, and to visit a place which is almost totally self sufficient. Piles of money.....  
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| gnome |
i'm not getting at everyone - and i know nobody is perfect. i must admit that just lately i have even toyed with the idea of learning to drive a car (totally against my principles - but it would help with work).
but stop and listen to yourselves for just one moment. people saying they think they should fly because they have earned a holdiay abroad. people saying they should fly because it's cheaper than the alternative, or more convenient than the alternative. isn't this what downsizing is all about? not taking the more convenient option because if we all stick to our principles, then just maybe we can get a big ball rolling and make a difference. thank you everyone, because you have now convinced me - i am not going to give in to peer pressure and become another motorist - i'm going to stick to my principles. one person can't make a difference - but what if everybody was one person? oh - we are. and i'm not alone. last year my supervisor had to go to a conference in London, but needed to back the next day. he could have taken a plane - got there on time, and flown back the same day. instead he got up before dawn, drove all the way, missed the intro and coffee, struggled to keep awake through the conference, then drove back throughout the night to get a few hours sleep when he returned. now i have to admire that. i looked into comparisons before he left to see if the carbon emmisions and environmental impact would have been little different, and to be honest i felt the difference was negligible. can't remember which report i read for that though. |
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| sean |
Hey, there weren't any bones broken. Everyone on here has different things that push their buttons. We'll definitely look into the different posibilities when when we get round to going to Ireland. | ||||||
| Jonnyboy |
I think this thread shows that personal, tradeable allowances would be a really good way of understanding your personal contribution and benefiting from any positive steps you make. Whilst still allowing people who wish to travel to do so whilst paying an appropriate cost. | ||||||
| gnome |
okay, but when the airport loses your baggage and you have to spend two nights sleeping at the terminal because of flight delays, can i snigger? | ||||||
| sean |
Feel free.
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| Rob R |
Yes, I frequently do 
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| Jonnyboy |
Want to hear a funny story about it taking me 24 hours to get from cardiff to stranraer by train. Can't say I felt overly virtuous, or clean at the end of that trip. |
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| gnome |
that quick? public transport must have really been working well that weekend. my part of the country frequently has no trains during weekends. i just don't travel much. sticking to my principles is a real pain in the ass sometimes, and to be honest i really don't blame people for giving up. they don't exactly make it easy for us do they? don't even get me started on the bank loan you need to take out to be able to afford a bus ticket to the city. | ||||||
| Gervase |
Bugger - I'm probably what's called middle class. Does that mean I should be flying somewhere? | ||||||
| Rob R |
No, it means you should get some ducks, let them do the flying. | ||||||
| Gervase |
If I have three ducks flying up my wall, maybe I won't be so middle class? | ||||||
| sean |
You'd need a finished wall though to attach the ducks to. | ||||||
| Rob R |
Middle class is just a state of mind (as are ducks). | ||||||
| gnome |
as long as you have flying ducks on your wall, you will never be middle class (unless they are there ironically) | ||||||
| gnome |
it's confusing these days isn't it? am i working class or middle class? i work in an office and use words of more than two syllabels, but i went to a comprehensive and live in a rented flat, and never went to uni.
my granny had a good yardstick for these things - she said "if you get out of the bath to take a piss, you are middle class." well, actually she said "posh", but thats what she meant. |
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| Jamanda |
Does it matter in the tiniest amount? |
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| Chez |
No. You are who you are. My parents work with their hands on the land, neither of them went to university - my dad left school at 14. We lived by selling what they produced. I went to private school and to university. I don't like being classed as either working class or middle class and I think it's all a load of outdated twaddle. I still only have rich-tea biscuits in the house, though. |
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| Rob R |
Respect & humility transcends class; just don't try & tell me I have dinner in the evenings. 
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| Chez |
*shakes Rob's hand* |
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| gnome |
to be frank - i wouldn't want to be associated with either class. i've met people who are quite definetely middle class, with middle class attitudes, and their attitudes made me livid. but then i look at the working class louts i grew up amongst and worked with, and quite honestly feel ashamed to have come from that morass.
it would be nice to live in a classless society, but it's a long way off yet. |