Archive for Downsizer For an ethical approach to consumption
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Legion
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Gender bending chemicals and ISA.In 2002, the powers that be decided that to improve the quality of land (machair) within certain areas of the uists they would agree to it being sprayed with sewerage sludge. I did raise concerns at the time publicly as to the content and repercussions from this decision especially on such fragile land.
It has now been discovered that the sludge contained gender bending chemicals with the result that male lambs have been 'feminised' by chemicals and substances contianed within the sludge , known as endocrine disruptors.
Although the result from the survey says that 'It is 'UNLIKELY'  that the observed behavioural pattern would have significant adverse consequences with respect to animal production and do not pose any direct danger to the consumer'.(The public use this area as a campsite during the summer)
50 tons of sludge ( the recommended ratio) per HA was used, this area has now been fenced off until 2005.
Yet!! according to current European legislation Scottish Water is NOT required to test for endocrine disruptors in sludge which is applied to land.
Now that brings me on to the next subject .
It has been disclosed that in south uist a fish farm has been quarantined as it is under suspicion of harbouring ISA ( Infectious Salmon Anaemia).
Extensive tests will be carried out over the next six months, during which time the company will have to follow stringent movement restrictions.
Meanwhile a north uist crofter - is applying untreated salmon fish waste at the ratio of 50 tons per ha to his land as fertilizer, with approval from the Scottish Executive. Fish waste, from salmon farms has been arriving on articulated lorries at the rate of over 20 tons per day for the last 6 weeks , coming in from all the fish farms on the southern isles (north uist , south uist & Benbecula), some waste even coming in on the ferry from other Islands(Lewis and Harris).
SEPA, insist they are within the law and there is nothing they can do as the fields are not near a water course and are 100 mtrs from the sea.
Worrying aint it.....  such is the madness of the islands.
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Jonnyboy
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Quite worrying, I've been concerened by the waste from fish farming for some time.
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tahir
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Not my favourite thing, fish farming. I really don't like it.
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Legion
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you wouldnt if you saw how it was REALLY done, we even refuse the brood stock as food for the wildcats (louse ridden things - the fish not the cats) 
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tahir
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So are you a fish farmer?
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cab
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Re: Gender bending chemicals and ISA. | Legion wrote: | In 2002, the powers that be decided that to improve the quality of land (machair) within certain areas of the uists they would agree to it being sprayed with sewerage sludge. I did raise concerns at the time publicly as to the content and repercussions from this decision especially on such fragile land.
It has now been discovered that the sludge contained gender bending chemicals with the result that male lambs have been 'feminised' by chemicals and substances contianed within the sludge , known as endocrine disruptors. |
Do you have a reference for this? Can you point us to a study that shows this to be true for this scheme?
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Although the result from the survey says that 'It is 'UNLIKELY' that the observed behavioural pattern would have significant adverse consequences with respect to animal production and do not pose any direct danger to the consumer'.(The public use this area as a campsite during the summer) |
And you have reason to doubt that there would be no adverse effect? Share it with us.
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50 tons of sludge ( the recommended ratio) per HA was used, this area has now been fenced off until 2005.
Yet!! according to current European legislation Scottish Water is NOT required to test for endocrine disruptors in sludge which is applied to land.
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What do you propose should be done with end-process sewage sludge?
Increasingly, people simply expect this stuff to vanish; we can't put in in the sea, supermarkets won't buy food from land where it's spread, and we won't pay the bills for incineration (nor will anyone volounteer their own back-yard as a site for said incineration).
What do you propose should be done with it?
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Now that brings me on to the next subject .
It has been disclosed that in south uist a fish farm has been quarantined as it is under suspicion of harbouring ISA ( Infectious Salmon Anaemia).
Extensive tests will be carried out over the next six months, during which time the company will have to follow stringent movement restrictions.
Meanwhile a north uist crofter - is applying untreated salmon fish waste at the ratio of 50 tons per ha to his land as fertilizer, with approval from the Scottish Executive. Fish waste, from salmon farms has been arriving on articulated lorries at the rate of over 20 tons per day for the last 6 weeks , coming in from all the fish farms on the southern isles (north uist , south uist & Benbecula), some waste even coming in on the ferry from other Islands(Lewis and Harris).
SEPA, insist they are within the law and there is nothing they can do as the fields are not near a water course and are 100 mtrs from the sea.
Worrying aint it..... such is the madness of the islands. |
And you'd have -what- done with the fish waste?
We all eat, drink and go to the can. All of this produces waste; whether it's farm waste, our own waste, or whatever. And that waste has to go somewhere. Unless you're suggesting that people stop farming and going to the bog, then you have to accept that the waste goes -somewhere-.
Where do you propose that it should go, other than not in your back yard?
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cab
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| Jonnyboy wrote: | | Quite worrying, I've been concerened by the waste from fish farming for some time. |
You're right to be. But be careful not to portray all fish farming as being bad; like all forms of agriculture, there is good practice and there is bad practice (as best shon in far-Eastern prawn farming, where the differences are more obvious).
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leebu
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I want to know if "gender bending chemicals" is a technical term. Thanks alot Legion, I just spat tea all down my monitor!
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Legion
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The two topics were taken from our local paper - we know it goes on, the fish waste used to go to Denmark - dont know whey they stopped it. One of my concerns is that with the possible ISA infection is south uist - where is all their waste going , talk about cross contamination.
See if there is anything else on the Stornoway gazette page , its a weekly - as are both local papers(west highland free press is the other), apart from the real local one - thats monthly ! lol
and ! i'll agree with you - not in my backyard..... 
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deerstalker
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| Cab wrote: |
You're right to be. But be careful not to portray all fish farming as being bad; like all forms of agriculture, there is good practice and there is bad practice (as best shon in far-Eastern prawn farming, where the differences are more obvious). |
Think this refers just to Salmon farming which over the years has proved to be an ecological nightmare.
Massive increases in sea lice destroying wild salmon and seatrout stocks, genetic contamination of wild stock, pollution caused by waste, health issues connected with eating farmed salmon and they even have to colour the flesh pink!
There is an answer to the problem of waste sludge - don't buy or eat farmed salmon! 
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tahir
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| Deerstalker wrote: | | There is an answer to the problem of waste sludge - don't buy or eat farmed salmon! |
That's what I do
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sean
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I don't either, but the sludge in question is from sewerage, now unless the salmon are highly trained....
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Legion
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No it isnt sean, the start of my post cleary says what is happening to the site where they sprayed the 'sludge' a couple of years ago. I was horrified they even allowed it, but not suprised with the results. We did tests on this kind of thing over 15 years ago in yorkshire - though they were never confirmed, I had living ( well sort of ) proof at the time, but it was just dismissed, and nothing in my books is a co-incidence, anyhow you read the result.
The fish are a different matter, look at the suspected putbreak on south uist? where has all their waste been going?was the same lorry used to pick up waste from other fish farms - were uncleaned tubs left - has the waste passed though any water couses where they could drip?..more importantly is anyone looking into it? and where has this disease come from , and how?...so yes, I arent well pleased that it drives right past my door, up to 24 tons at a time on a huge articulated lorry, and is then spred on fields that I used to walk my dogs near..........but we'll see, we'll see!!
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Behemoth
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I've got a comment on the 'gender bending lambs' from Imperial College London who were asked to review this story and the report it came from by Water UK (water company research group). I don't want to post the comment as their research paper has not been published yet and I might get into trouble (the power of Google and all that) but in summary it says the reasearch into the lambs is highly dodgy in a not very scientific manner, the main point being that there was no sampling of the soil to actually access the impact on the grazing etc so to make the link was taking a few leaps of supposition. In some of the evidence where samples were done the active chemicals were found on land without sludge. Also these compounds do occur naturally in greens (beans, brassicas etc) and in manmade products (plastics to wrap food etc) and the amounts in the sludge were negligble compared to these sources.
Declaring interests - I work for a water company.
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tahir
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Well it's good to know both sides, you'd better post the relevant bits of the report when you're allowed
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cab
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| Legion wrote: | | No it isnt sean, the start of my post cleary says what is happening to the site where they sprayed the 'sludge' a couple of years ago. I was horrified they even allowed it, but not suprised with the results. We did tests on this kind of thing over 15 years ago in yorkshire - though they were never confirmed, I had living ( well sort of ) proof at the time, but it was just dismissed, and nothing in my books is a co-incidence, anyhow you read the result. |
So where do you propose that the sludge should go? Should it merely disappear somehow? Should it be dumped at sea? What do you propose?
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The fish are a different matter, look at the suspected putbreak on south uist? where has all their waste been going?was the same lorry used to pick up waste from other fish farms - were uncleaned tubs left - has the waste passed though any water couses where they could drip?..more importantly is anyone looking into it? and where has this disease come from , and how?...so yes, I arent well pleased that it drives right past my door, up to 24 tons at a time on a huge articulated lorry, and is then spred on fields that I used to walk my dogs near..........but we'll see, we'll see!! |
Again, what do you propose should happen to the waste?
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Legion
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As we have no sewerage treatment plant as such up here, leave the stuff where it was in the first place - same with the fish - they used to send them abroad, why not now? Waste is the problem or by product of an industry its thats industries responsibility - not turn the islands land into a dumping ground for god knows what in the future...but , hey, what do I care its not on my land.......
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sean
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Legion, sorry misread your original post.
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cab
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| Legion wrote: | | As we have no sewerage treatment plant as such up here, leave the stuff where it was in the first place - same with the fish - they used to send them abroad, why not now? Waste is the problem or by product of an industry its thats industries responsibility - not turn the islands land into a dumping ground for god knows what in the future...but , hey, what do I care its not on my land....... |
Sending it abroad doesn't solve the problem. It moves it.
And yes, for a lot of waste it's the responsibility of the Industry producing it to rid themselves of it. In this case they're spreading it on the land and as far as they're concerned it's safe to do so. You have not demonstrated otherwise.
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Legion
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For gods sake cab , calm down youll bust a blood vessel - I just point out these things - like the guga and wind farms - showing politics and the guardians of the countryside at their very worst - I havent even moved on to the hedgehogs and the mink yet, or the seals , so take a chill pill - or better still put the kettle on, cos, theres nowt either you nor me can do about it, just bring to light the worst possible scenario - which usually happens.......so let it, but never fail to notice or bring it to the attention of others!! now is it your turn for the biscuits - or is essex boy about?, he's good for a choccie hobnob at times like these.......
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tahir
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Just about to have my sarnie
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Legion
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Jeez, tahir, felt the water going particularly chilly there..... all looks better after a good brew!! or sarnie (pieces up here) as the case maybe.....whatever
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cab
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| Legion wrote: | | For gods sake cab , calm down youll bust a blood vessel |
I am calm, thank you.
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- I just point out these things - like the guga and wind farms - showing politics and the guardians of the countryside at their very worst - I havent even moved on to the hedgehogs and the mink yet, or the seals , so take a chill pill |
One topic at a time, eh?
You've made some claims about something being handled wrongly. Would you address the questions put to you on the subject of those claims, please?
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- or better still put the kettle on, cos, theres nowt either you nor me can do about it, just bring to light the worst possible scenario - which usually happens.......so let it, but never fail to notice or bring it to the attention of others!! now is it your turn for the biscuits - or is essex boy about?, he's good for a choccie hobnob at times like these....... |
You're dodging the questions put to you. Your perogative, of course. But why are you doing it? You've made a set of claims that I presume you believe in. Therefore I presume you have information to back them up, or a better solution to what you currently perceive as a problem (other than the one you've suggested so far, which is to cart the waste of so as to make it someone elses problem).
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Jonnyboy
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ahhh Cab, spoiling for a good debate!
I'll have to re-read this article, put my metaphorical wellies on and wade in.
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tahir
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Shouldn't you be putting your waders on if you're going to wade in?
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Jonnyboy
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wellies scanned better.
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tahir
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It'd be really good if we could get someone involved in aquaculture involved. I've always had qulams about it, but mostly gut instinct not fact based
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cab
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| Tahir wrote: | | It'd be really good if we could get someone involved in aquaculture involved. I've always had qulams about it, but mostly gut instinct not fact based |
Years ago, I was forced to learn a hell of a lot more about aquaculture than I ever would have chosen. Best not to ask.
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tahir
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| Quote: | | But what if the current bycatches that are thrown back dea into the sea were used for aquaculture? |
?? better to say what if they were used for human consumption in the first place
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Legion
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C',om cab, you know as well as we all do, the powers that be only employ yes men!! look at the mink over £3,500 cost per mink caught. But they did use politically correct methods - or so they say (we know different and have photos to prove) they should have had two teams, one with their scientific methods, the other using traditional location and dispatch methods - to compare the results. How can comparisons be made when there aint none?
As for what we am going to do - nowt!! I'll just bring it to your attention, sit back - as we always do- and watch it happen.....
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tahir
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| Quote: | | ?? better to say what if they were used for human consumption in the first place |
Agree, but there's a lot of stuff that isn't saleable too
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cab
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| Legion wrote: | | C',om cab, you know as well as we all do, the powers that be only employ yes men!! |
I actually know that the 'powers that be' are very bad at employing two people who will express the same view on the same day. I know that when it comes to a claim about something being a danger, you need more than the basic assumption that you can't trust the 'powers that be' to back that claim up. Furthermore, I know that if we go down the route of assuming that something is dangerous just 'cos someone said so then we'd never leave home in the morning.
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look at the mink over £3,500 cost per mink caught. But they did use politically correct methods - or so they say (we know different and have photos to prove) they should have had two teams, one with their scientific methods, the other using traditional location and dispatch methods - to compare the results. How can comparisons be made when there aint none? |
This is entirely unconnected with the sludge problems you've complained about.
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As for what we am going to do - nowt!! I'll just bring it to your attention, sit back - as we always do- and watch it happen..... |
So you're going to make a set of (fairly serious) claims, and not substantiate them in any way. Because, presumably, you don't want anyone to agree with them.
Fine. As long as I know.
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Legion
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eyyyyy, cab, you are a one, and i know how the 'game' is played up here and there aint nothing anyone can say or do - once the wheels are in motion, just sit back and watch it happen - I was against the sludge(proved to be spot on there), I am against the fish dumping (bet i'm spot on with this too) the mink !! well lets just wait and see - 18mnths to go, lets see the population in 3yrs when the money has run out . .....its a waiting game cab......and ,time is something I have plenty of
stop press!! lol
Looks like the salmon is going to be a long term concern, the wee crofters have applied for planning permission ( bet its retrospective) ,for more sheds building, bury and ensaile waste salmon , must go to the council now and read - just HOW BIG this concern is going to be, I aready notice ladened articulated wagons passing us up to 9:30pm in the evening..., hmmmm,and her being an ex councillor and all that...... just keeps getting better....ru keeping up cab!!
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cab
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| Legion wrote: | | eyyyyy, cab, you are a one, and i know how the 'game' is played up here and there aint nothing anyone can say or do - once the wheels are in motion, just sit back and watch it happen - I was against the sludge(proved to be spot on there), I am against the fish dumping (bet i'm spot on with this too) the mink !! well lets just wait and see - 18mnths to go, lets see the population in 3yrs when the money has run out . .....its a waiting game cab......and ,time is something I have plenty of |
You're mixing multiple issues together, saying you're against all of them, and not going into any depth on any one of them. If you express opposition to enough things, you're likely to be right on one of them sooner or later, I suppose.
You're claiming to be spot on with the sludge, but you haven't responded where you've been challenged to justify those claims, and you've not answered the simple question of what alternative route for disposal would be better (more broadly environmentally friendly , not as a NIMBY).
Expressing a strongly held view is fine. To be convincing while doing so you need to address the questions put to you on that subject. Do you want others to be convinced by what you're saying or now?
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Legion
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Not trying to convince anyone - just telling it as it is, dont want converts, dreamers or idealists - just realists, facts are facts - not for me to go digging any deeper than I need (unless the issue is really going to affect me, and neither the sludge or the fish dont - its morally and ethically and conservationally WRONG!! - and not down to me to suggest or find an alternative, nor look too deeply into results, I dont have to!! they speak for themselves.
It may be multi issue to you, but if you read, the way each problem is dealt with is in the exact same way they deal with every enviromental problem, textbook!! , shame mother nature doesnt go along with what all the texbooks say.......hey! but thats in an ideal world......
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cab
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| Legion wrote: | | Not trying to convince anyone - just telling it as it is, dont want converts, dreamers or idealists - just realists, facts are facts - not for me to go digging any deeper than I need (unless the issue is really going to affect me, and neither the sludge or the fish dont - its morally and ethically and conservationally WRONG!! - and not down to me to suggest or find an alternative, nor look too deeply into results, I dont have to!! they speak for themselves. |
Yes, it is down to -whoever- claims that something is wrong to suggest something else.
In this instance you've claimed that it's wrong, but you have failed to defend that this is so. Why make a claim that you're not willing to defend? You're subsequently claiming that it would be better if the waste were taken elsewhere, but you have neither justified that it is indeed dangerous or that it would be environmentally advantageous to do so.
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It may be multi issue to you, but if you read, the way each problem is dealt with is in the exact same way they deal with every enviromental problem, textbook!! , shame mother nature doesnt go along with what all the texbooks say.......hey! but thats in an ideal world...... |
You're confusing sludge processing with mink control with dumping fish. The evidence required to demonstrate that each is a problem would be a different data set. The way of fixing any of those problems (other than a very wooly claim like 'respect nature more' or something equally 1968) would also be different.
With respect to dealing with sludge, you might have a point. In asking you do defend your view I gave you a chance to show that you really -do- have a point. But until you defend your stance against the most elementary, obvious criticisms then how the devil can anyone -know- whether you have a point or not?
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Legion
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cab, you really have missed the point havent you? I dont have to justify facts, they are written down cast in stone by scientists and sepa, sanctioned, licenced and approved by the Scottish Executive - yet dont have local planning permission - its called a gochaaa!! result, no more fish....... maybe you'd like to take delivery..
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cab
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| Legion wrote: | | cab, you really have missed the point havent you? I dont have to justify facts, they are written down cast in stone by scientists and sepa, sanctioned, licenced and approved by the Scottish Executive - yet dont have local planning permission - its called a gochaaa!! result, no more fish....... maybe you'd like to take delivery.. |
In which case cite -where- they are written in stone to support your case. Show, by referring to said evidence, that said sludge is indeed a real safety issue. Demonstrate, specifically, that you're right. Till then, it's all hearsay.
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Legion
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It might be hearsay, but it wont be dumped down my lane any more and that'll do me nicely....
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cab
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| Legion wrote: | | It might be hearsay, but it wont be dumped down my lane any more and that'll do me nicely.... |
That's the kind of nimbyism that's at the root of most of the really big environmental problems we have in the world 
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Legion
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I know
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