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Lorrainelovesplants

ground source heat pumps...

If you had £8000 would you invest it in this?
Hairyloon

Depends how much heating you are wanting to do.
They give out about 4x as much energy as you put in, and I think you can get renewable energy payments for it.
RichardW

Why do you think its an investment?

Is buying a gas boiler, cooker or kitchen sink an investment?

That a side, do you have mains gas? If so dont bother.
vegplot

As Richard said don't bother if you have gas mains gas.

Air source heat pumps work quite well. Some friends had one put in a couple of years ago. Electricity have remained about the same (given that they managed to get a cheaper provider) but now their home is heated and they don't need their oil boiler any more.

Personally, I'd invest in insulation and solar gain before opting for the technology.
Hairyloon

That a side, do you have mains gas? If so dont bother.

I have wondered about using a gas engine to drive the heat pump instead of electricity...
RichardW

Might have legs. Would still need some elec.

VP how do they get on with the AirSource heat pump in very cold & damp weather? Does it have any heaters in it for those times? I am still loathed to recommend them as you can get to the point that they have no COP & you are at parity. Would be better if we stopped using high grade energy (elec) to do low grade tasks (heat & cook). Save the high grade stuff for jobs that cant be done any other way.
digit

I've installed a heat pump here, it's saved me a fortune on my heating, i wouldn't go for the air source heat pump as they're not as efficient as the ground source.
Hairyloon

Might have legs. Would still need some elec.

Not seeing what for, apart from control system & starter motor.
Cathryn

The condenser needs power all the time.

Sorry, just noticed you wre answering Richard.

We are installing a ground source heating system. It's not replacing anything though so it makes sense in the longer term.
Mutton

I'm trying to move away from anything electricity dependent as much as feasible. (Obviously some things run on electricity.)
a) Because of the efficiency of conversion from coal/oil/gas to electric is not great
b) Because of all the dire predictions about how we are going to run out of enough electricity to go round
c) Related to b- the possibility of intermittent electricity supply.

My understanding of GSHP is that they work best chugging along most of the time to provide a gentle background heat. So if we do move into a world of intermittent electricity supply they could suddenly be less effective.
Or maybe I'm talking tosh. Someone will be bound to say so if that is the case. Laughing
Cathryn

That is our understanding. The intention is to put in solar panels as well. We looked at wind and water, neither were appropriate. vegplot

Might have legs. Would still need some elec.

VP how do they get on with the AirSource heat pump in very cold & damp weather? Does it have any heaters in it for those times? I am still loathed to recommend them as you can get to the point that they have no COP & you are at parity. Would be better if we stopped using high grade energy (elec) to do low grade tasks (heat & cook). Save the high grade stuff for jobs that cant be done any other way.

They claim to not need an additional heat source. I was sceptical and I haven't seen the figures but they're very pleased with it. I certainly agree with your last sentiment.
alice

Might have legs. Would still need some elec.

VP how do they get on with the AirSource heat pump in very cold & damp weather? Does it have any heaters in it for those times? I am still loathed to recommend them as you can get to the point that they have no COP & you are at parity. Would be better if we stopped using high grade energy (elec) to do low grade tasks (heat & cook). Save the high grade stuff for jobs that cant be done any other way.

They claim to not need an additional heat source. I was sceptical and I haven't seen the figures but they're very pleased with it. I certainly agree with your last sentiment.

We were talking about this very issue with a planning inspector recently. He's aware of some installations that incurred unexpectedly high electric bills last winter.
Mutton

Several years back a friend who is very into renewables was disappointed by the air source heat pump he had installed. Came nowhere near the figures promised. And he is technically minded so wouldn't have mucked up how he ran it. alice

Several years back a friend who is very into renewables was disappointed by the air source heat pump he had installed. Came nowhere near the figures promised. And he is technically minded so wouldn't have mucked up how he ran it.

Yeah, I'm very underwhelmed by what I've heard about them.
Lorrainelovesplants

It would be GSHP.

Will have a chat with a chap from Clear about Carbon at the college...
crofter

Several years back a friend who is very into renewables was disappointed by the air source heat pump he had installed. Came nowhere near the figures promised. And he is technically minded so wouldn't have mucked up how he ran it.

Yeah, I'm very underwhelmed by what I've heard about them.

Do you know which make(s) of pumps? I am tempted by something like this
http://www.icsheatpumps.co.uk/residential/air-source-heat-pumps.php

for underfloor heating and hot water, although I am not 100% happy about siting something outside where it may be buried under a snowdrift when it is needed most. Thinking inside a shed with the freezers might be a better place?

To answer Lorraine, I know a couple of people with ground source pumps, both very pleased with performance over quite a few winters now.
RichardW


I am not 100% happy about siting something outside where it may be buried under a snowdrift when it is needed most.

But at that time it will be heating vis the inbuilt electric heating elements that they tend NOT to tell you about.

I would not put one in the garage with the freezer as it will over cool the room (any plumbing could freeze) & stop the freezer working. Also if you look at the total air volume in that room the total energy stored in there is very very minimal. The same is true of people putting them in the loft. Seems a good idea but the total energy available is so small its not worth it.

On a pedantant note,

Ground source heat pumps do not use Ground sourced heat (IE Geothermal). Its latent solar energy that is being gathered. Start pulling to much out & you could affect the growing period of the land its on as soil temps will be much lower. Some are saying that after about 7 years the average soil temps are lowering where GSHP are installed.
crofter



I would not put one in the garage with the freezer as it will over cool the room (any plumbing could freeze) & stop the freezer working. Also if you look at the total air volume in that room the total energy stored in there is very very minimal. The same is true of people putting them in the loft. Seems a good idea but the total energy available is so small its not worth it.



As well as being buried by snow, I am also concerned about the corrosive effect of the high amount of salt in the air here. What about a ventilated shelter made from polycarbonate sheets - protection from the weather and potentially some solar gain?
RichardW

Again the volume of air in the shelter will be much smaller than needed. Think in reverse. How long would it take a 16kw(or however big the unit is) heater to raise the temp in that shelter by a few deg c? Thats how long the heat in it will last with the unit sucking the heat out.

Air source heat pumps need large volumes of air constantly.


Get the maker/seller to warranty it against salt corrosion.
crofter

Thanks Richard, that makes sense. Thinking some more, a shelter would just protect it from the rain, not the salt in the air. Getting buried by snow could still be a problem though. Maybe the solution is not to run it in the coldest days of winter and use woodburner as backup for those times? Although we generally don't get extreme cold here, because of the ocean.
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