| Archive for Downsizer For an ethical approach to consumption |
| vickersdc |
Heavy HorsesI would love to be in a position to utilise heavy horses, indeed, at a felling site that I'm hoping to use early next year, it looks like I might have to use horses to extract the timber.Some of you may know that I work for a college, and we also have an equine section, so I was thinking of putting together a business case for getting a heavy horse that could be used by staff / students on courses (and maybe around the 360 acres that forms the college grounds?!). But to make it a viable proposition to take to management, it has to be economically worthwhile (as opposed to just being a decent thing to do). So, out of interest, how many of you would attend courses that related to heavy horses? Things like... - horse logging in small woodlands. - using a heavy horse in the fields. - heavy horse ownership These could be day courses, or ones spread out over a period of time. Now, I won't keep any of you to it, but I'm looking to find out how much interest there might be out there. Cheers, David. |
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| BahamaMama |
I would.... I would like to brush their hair and put ribbons in 
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| Blue Peter |
Re: Heavy Horses
So, does that mean that it's not economically viable to run a heavy horse for those tasks, but you can make it so if you can diversify into additional income streams (or whatever trhe management-speak might be)? If that were the case, would it rather limit the number of people who might want to come on the courses? Peter. |
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| vickersdc |
Re: Heavy Horses
Like any other business, the college has to fund it's activities one way or another. For my part, I look after a series of full-cost forestry and arboricultural short courses - that means that I have to essentially pay my own way within the college (not quite true, but close enough). So, to be able to sell the idea of heavy horses to management it must be viable - economically and practically. The practical side is less of an issue at the moment as far as I can see, but the financial side is important. It's easy to get all misty-eyed about heavy horses (and I include myself here), but they would have to earn their keep, or at least a reasonable chunk of it! And as for BahamaMama
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| Blue Peter |
I suppose what I'd like to know is if:
you added up all the costs of whatever you currently do; and, you added up all the costs of doing the same tasks using a heavy horse, which would be greater, Peter. |
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| BahamaMama |
I think what David is trying to establish is what sort of interest would there be if the college was able to offer these type of courses. As Downsizer has lots of members who are interested in land-based activities either for a living, hobby or interest, it is a useful place to conduct market-research. | ||||
| Treacodactyl |
When I've seen the heavy horses working at wood fairs it certainly something I find appealing, but when I think how practical the work involved in looking after them would be it would be too much for us.
I have wondered if you could use donkeys on a smaller scale, carting small logs and coppice products around, but that's going off topic a bit. |
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| vickersdc |
I'm sure you could use donkeys, but they may be a bit stubborn..? I have heard of people using Shetlands to pull small carts around for exactly that purpose (shifting small logs, etc.). It's not really going off-topic either - one of the areas to potentially offer courses to, would be the small [wood]land owner, where a heavy horse could just cost too much, but something smaller would be beneficial to move lesser loads about. |
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| bodger |
I once went on a three day Shire Horse Management Course at the now defunct Shire Horse centre in Yealmpton. It was an unforgetable experience. | ||||
| LynneA |
Capel Manor College in North London has Clydesdales that the students work with (Equine, Animal Care and I think Cordwainery courses), plus giving carriage rides at college shows.
If your college has a decent size area of woodland, maybe a couple of horses could be used in conjunction with the work of Aboriculture students, one trick my old college wasn't able to use. Have you looked into the Working Horse Trustfor more ideas? |
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| gz |
Cordwainers make boots....(for horses?!)
(Great grandad was a cordwainer) |
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| sean |
Aren't they just leatherworkers in general? So they could make suitcases or whatever. | ||||
| vickersdc |
Thanks LynneA,
We've got a very successful equine section here, and that's why I'm reasonably certain that the care of the heavy horse would not provide insurmountable problems. I'm going to need to show how having the horses will benefit the college - obviously as a land-based college I'm looking to see how we could use the horses for equine, agriculture, horticulture and forestry students. I've got ideas galore and I really want to be in a position where we could use these gentle giants, not least because a college is the one place where young adults can see these beautiful creatures at work and realise the benefits of using them. For all that, if I can't prove that there is interest in such an idea from the 'fee-paying public' then it's going to fail at the first hurdle - that's why I posted on here - to try and gauge how much interest there was in running courses based on the heavy horse. |
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| bring me sunshine |
If we are ever in a position to buy our own farm, the OH and I will be having an almighty battle over quad bikes vs horse power.
For my part, I'd be extremely interested in such a course 
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| Cathryn |
I had a conversation with someone around here who uses horses in the forestry and had been employed by the forestry commission or possibly Dwr Cymru. He said it was the only way to get some trees out on some of the steeper slopes. He would be slightly biased though but if that is the case then it could possibly be sold as slightly more financially viable in some areas? (Trees on steep slopes though, I wonder.) | ||||
| mochyn |
I'd certainly go on such a course (if I could afford it). I was just mulling over options for ploughing/harrowing one of my fields and I don't see how I could without animal power. My land is fertile but steep: The field next to the one in question is full of oak but totally inaccessible without mountaineering kit! | ||||
| vickersdc |
Hi mochyn, You might want to get in touch with Kate Mobbs-Morgan - she's based over near Monmouth (website: http://www.rowanworkinghorses.co.uk/). I don't know the lady personally, but I have been recommended her by the current horse(wo)man down at Chawton House Library (where Kate used to work). She may well be a good person to chat to if you are thinking about using horse-power for your fields. Hope it helps... David. |
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| vickersdc |
On a commercial footing, heavy horses seem to be carving out a niche dealing with this sort of awkward scenario - awkward for normal forestry machinery that is. The heavy horses are particularly good at dealing with steep slopes, or where they can extract timber to ride-side for normal machinery to collect, or to extract timber where selective felling has been carried out. Or all three! |
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| gil |
In Sheffield, a very hilly city with precipitous areas too steep to build on which were left wild/made into parkland with trees, the City Council used to employ men with heavy horses to manage the woodland. This was way way back, well, at least 25 years. Before outsourcing / subcontracting of public services.
You might aim courses at public sector / their contractors, as well as smallholders. Councils do surprising things. For example, Eastbourne Council used to employ a shepherd to run a flock of sheep on Beachy Head to keep the grass down. This was later subcontracted, but I think the Council still owned the sheep. |
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| Nanny |
[quote="vickersdc]
I'm sure you could use donkeys, but they may be a bit stubborn..? [/quote] no they aren't they just need to know what's in it for them. the little bit we have done with our poitou leads us to that conclusion. we have used her for harrowing the field and she has pulled a cart etc. we have found that if she thinks its a good idea then she is away with it and likes the challenge.... time has prevented us from doing with her exactly what you are considering doing...she has no issues with wearing harness or pulling anything really and at 14.2hh she has a lot of strength... all we need is the extra hours in a day to get her properly trained and the several hundred pounds to buy the proper logging thingees...they are extremely expensive i fear.... |
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| vickersdc |
Hi Nanny,
I openly admit to not knowing anything about donkeys, it was just an impression that they could be stubborn - hence why I wrote that comment in a vague way! When you talk about the 'proper logging thingees', I'm assuming you are thinking about the logging arch? There is another, cheaper, alternative and that is a swingle tree at £195; check out the heavy horse site at http://www.heavyhorses.net/Pages/equipment.htm. |
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| shadiya |
I'd def be interested in some courses, working horses are part of our future plan. | ||||
| Nanny |
it was the logging arch thing i was speaking about...comes from norway or somewhere like that and would be too big for millie really...we had an idea we could use a trotting sulkie for what we wanted to do with millie, only snicking out some alder trees in the woodland we have here...we were given a sulkie but haven't got round to adjusting it yet and so it goes on.... thanks very much for the website by the way, i shall pass it on to rolf for his perusal..... |
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| Ixy |
I know it'll be ignored but hell, I'm going to say it anyway.
Oxen would be way easier for you. Cheaper to buy and much, much less care involved (feeding, rugging, shoeing, grooming, worming etc etc etc) hardier, less prone to lameness or field injuries and cheaper vets bills. Extremely safe and steady to work with (no rearing, kicking, nipping, prancing, bolting or shying) and if you weren't going to work it for weeks, months, even years on end due to other commitments, it doesn't matter because they never forget; you can pull them out of the field and set them to work as if they were worked yesterday. Harnessing is simpler than for a horse and they also pull more steadily than horses (no 'breaking' the load) and better in hard, wet conditions. Oxen remain more popular than horses for logging in eastern europe in such conditions, and generally outnumber working horses 3:1 worldwide. I guess we are just prejudiced in this country as we are in love with the horse, a rich person's animal, and the ox is just your poor peasant's beast. You wouldn't have to sell the idea to anyone, or run any kind of course - just get on with the logging. |
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| beean |
I had a newforest/exmoor cross - small but stocky - and she was handy at pulling logs around. Maybe more pleasant than machinery, but not more practical. | ||||
| Blue Peter |
So lb for £ (?) oxen beat horses hooves down? Are oxen as strong as horses? Are there any advantages to horses over oxen? Peter. |
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| Ixy |
Historically it was thought/said that horses could pull more than oxen for their weight, however in ye olden days cattle were smaller, whereas holstein oxen and other breeds can regularly get bigger than shire horses. Also, oxen had the point of pull on their spine or horns (yokes) whereas horses have nice comfy collars to pull with their breast/shoulders. Horsecollars don't quite work on oxen but ox collars have now been developed and can be made cheaply and easily - I'm also working on a harness that's very easy to make, supercheap and very lightweight and machine washable. This should allow oxen to pull more comfortably. I've seen competitive oxpulls though with the traditional yokes where the teams pull many times their own weight, just purely concrete blocks along the ground, not even any wheels, so I do wonder if there's ANY basis to the idea of horses being stronger than oxen at all? From what I can see, that could be spin. down to snobbery. 'the man on the ground' has no way of realistically proving it. Horses are reputed to be faster than oxen, however I've not found that to be the case at all. And certainly for logging, they can manage an active walk as fast as any horse so I don't see that that would be a concern. Oxen are used for racing abroad, and can outsprint a horse although the horse would overtake over distance. Not really relevant for logging though. And when you add up how cheap and easy oxen are to keep compared to heavy horses, it'd be no bother having four oxen rather than two shires anyway. |
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| vickersdc |
Hi Ixy,
This is quite interesting, and I for one would never have even thought of using oxen. The newer ox collars are presumably like a horse collars? How would oxen fair logging up / down steep banks? How manouvreable are oxen compared to horses? Thanks, David. |
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| ros |
...and I wonder then where the saying "strong as an ox" comes from
is it best understanding or a miss quote of " strong as an hos" ?? |
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| Ixy |
Oxen are accepted as superior in wet and steep conditions to horses - they have cloven hooves (like mountain goats!) so have better grip and just generally fare better in wet conditions - cows like to stand in water in hot weather etc. Wet/mud will cause mudrash and lameness in horses which you don't tend to get with cattle.
Often when horses and steam engines got bogged down in mud, oxen were called out of retirement long after they'd gone out of fashion to haul them out! As for manoueverability - a pair can turn in an exact circle if you need them to (you command the outside ox to walk on and the inside to stay and the pair will move round each other in a circle), and have more flexible bodies than horses, they can scrunch themselves into shapes you never see in a horse to lick between their back legs!!
I have a website - www.theoxfiles.com - if you go to the links and pictures section you can see exactly what oxen can do! And here's a new one - this is my friend anne witalfsky doing an interview about her 'kuhschule' (cowschool) in switzerland. She trains cows for performance and riding! Anne's Cowschool I mean, if you are a horsey person, then go for horses. No point working with an animal you don't like. But if simply logging without machinery with as little fuss as possible is the aim then I don't see why an ox wouldn't be viable for you? I worked with horses for 13 years in 4 different stables (riding school, sanctuary, dealer's yard and competitive dressage yard) but I have to say, since working oxen I would never go back! It's all just so much easier....I love the laidback, smart character of the oxen - jobs get done with no mucking about, and much less expense and work for me! |
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| Ixy |
not sure? possibly from pre-widespread-horseuse days? horses are a new thing compared to oxen. |
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| Ixy |
Did you know the word 'furlong' comes from the length of ground a team of oxen could reasonably pull without a stop? 
Um, I've been wracking my brains for a reason to have a horse over an ox and one thing I can come up with is - availability. You can't just walk out and buy a team ready to work in this country (unless stupendously lucky). The only people I can think of would be the hare krishnas in Watford - they can't slaughter any male offspring from their holy cows so they put them all to work. I can see that they'd have more oxen than work for them so you might have luck there. Apart from that you just have to get calves (and you do have to start with calves) and train them yourself. I'm an experienced calf rearer and would be more than happy to source some decent calves and rear them past milk stage and give initial training though? |
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| Chez |
I'd be interested to learn about oxen ... after meeting Ixy's Angus, I'm a convert. | ||||
| Ixy |
 
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| Ixy |
I asked some oxy people I know (who have also/do also work horses) about the maneoverability and this was the answer:
"Oxen are more manueverable. They have less equipment to get in the way and if things get in their way they will slow down and feel their way." "Absolutely agree. Oxen when used loose, are extremely maneuverable." |
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| mochyn |
I remember about 20 years ago taking the train from Porto up the Douro valley in N Portugal. There were hillside vineyards bordered with olives and worked by oxen. Wonderful to watch. | ||||
| mal55 |
This thread's taken a really interesting turn with the introduction of oxen! An old measure of area, the "hide" was the area an ox could plough in a day. Historically, the whole of Southern Africa was opened up by the Dutch voertrekkers and British settlers using ox drawn waggons, whilst in America, the horse drawn waggons so beloved in Hollywood are pretty much a myth as the West was largely opened up by oxen too. In both large teams were used to transport everything a settler would need once away from civilisation and pulling power, steadiness and stamina were far more important than speed. Horses, particularly before the development of the heavy breeds were mainly for high status vehicles, where speed was more important than power such as stage coaches or for military use, again where speed was required.
Last year my wife had to go on a trip to Poland through her job and came back having seen a farmer ploughing with an ox and horse in the same team! I would have thought that either or both animals would become increasingly attractive to farmers and growers as fuel prices rise. I've read that in the future, farms will have to be smaller and more labour intensive than is the norm now due to fuel costs, so a school training people to use horse/ox power would be brilliant and increasingly popular. [img]  [/img]
I took this yesterday at The Festival of the Plough in Epworth. There were categories for steam, crawler and modern tractor ploughing too. Fancy adding an oxen event or demo Ixy? |
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| Ixy |
Yes I'm *just* on the verge of finishing my harness, and if it works, can then offer courses on working with Angus, and I have more calves arriving anytime to train up, ayrshire and/or dairy shorthorn.
With demos, transport is a problem for me as my license doesn't allow me to tow much at all and Angus weighs far too much! |
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| shadiya |
I'd love to come and do an oxen course, when can you do one? How've you got on with your harness? How exciting! | ||||
| Ixy |
I'll probably be ready in the new year, but I gather visitors would need to find their own local accomodation due to H&S   but I'll be looking to do some kind of deal with a local hotel/B&B when i find one....
new harness looking good, fits good, just need a couple more bits and pieces and the place I order from is excrutiatingly slow!!! |
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| dpack |
moos are nicer than equines
angus is very nice moos on slopes is no problem even flat raised ones cope with piles of pond dredgings etc the handlebars on highlands might get in the way
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| mal55 |
Why do horses use a collar and cattle a yoke? Is there any particular reason or is it just custom? I know a cow collar would need to be a different shape to one for a horse, but is there any fundamental difference in their construction to stop them being used?
But you'd look dead cool with a stars and stripes plough! "Easy Plougher" 
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| Ixy |
Cattle are traditionally yoked because yokes are comparitively simple and easier to make than a horse harness - it's just shaping a big chunk of wood. You are able to do this on cattle because they have a level topline if you see what I mean - horses hold their heads up whereas cattle tend to hold theirs down, or on a level with their spine and they have developed shoulders; they are built to push (each other and predators) with their front ends. For this reason you won't see them rear like a horse, a horse's power comes from the back end, for running away. There's nowhere to place a yoke on a horse really.
Cattle can work in collars, they are different to horse collars (though some people do adapt horsecollars) because cattle don't have a broad chest like a horse, they have the dewlap and their windpipe which is constricted if you make them push with their breast. But they do have shoulders and in europe especially, collars are much more common than they have been here or in america. They are simply wooden hames and a pad but there is a gap at the bottom for the windpipe. This means cattle can push more comfortably and efficiently. My harness still puts the point of pull at the base of the neck, but it should be more comfortable than a yoke IMO as it's lighter (no wood), well padded and when stopped the load will not rest on the neck, it'll be spread over the back. I also won't be doing any seriously heavy work like ploughing with it - just pulling a sledge or cart. For serious logging in future I have a european collar being restored as we type. |
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| Ixy |
I just updated the website to include lots of new vids of oxen doing crazy stuff, well worth a look I think, if you are as sad as me...
Click Me |
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| vickersdc |
Well all this talk of oxen hasn't really helped me to an answer for my original question
Still, it's rather interesting to hear about using oxen instead of horses as it's not something I ever considered. I'll be checking out those videos that you mention Ixy. Cheers, David. |
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| Ixy |
No, but it was intended to solve the initial problem in an alternative way and negate the need for the question
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| mal55 |
Sorry Dave! I think you can take it the answer is "quite a few of us! It's a great idea and pretty immaterial as to whether horses or oxen are used so long as it's animal rather than machine powered. You could try both. Cattle power could be far more practical for small scale growers, forestry etc. It would make an interesting study! Thanks for the info Nat It figures!!
Mal |
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| shadiya |
I have horses and cows, so it'd be fun to try both. I'm really excited about oxen though, as have been looking for a way to justify getting more cattle! :lol
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| shadiya |
umm, what happened to the little laughing face? Why is it that every time I think there's no need to preview before posting, something goes wrong? Blooming computers......
(Yes, I know, I know, it's user error..... I get to blame the laptop because as it's an inanimate object, it can't complain...... works for me.... )
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| The.Grange |
Out of pure curiosity what bred of heavy horse were you thinking of, as not all breeds are for all types of work?
Traditionally you would not ideally have a shire working in mud as the feathers would clog, weighting the foot down causing problems, risking foot problems and the time it would take to ensure they were both cleaned and dried at the end of a day would also make it less likely. The suffolk punch with is cleaner legs would be more suited for heavy wet field work, shires were more dray horses. Plus suffolks were better doers needed less feed for as much if not more production, so were more cost effective than other heavy breeds.... but getting hold of a suffolk punch is akin to finding he holy grail! Having owned and shown shires, and currently own a trait breton stallion, heavy horses are big softies and so easy to handle compared to many other breeds. However, we once owned a champion welsh section D stallion (now buried in our school) he was a little power house, at only 14.2hh, and he was capable of ploughing and other driving requirements.
eta: he was 27 years young in this photo |
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| HawthornHeavyHorses |
Hi David,
We work in partnership with our local college. Have a look at http://www.hawthornheavyhorses.co.uk You could condsider working in partnership with a local contractor rather than setting up on your own, as it has worked quite well in our case. We have a fairly conplicated agreement as we also partner with the local council, but for you it could simply be a case of providing free livery in return for work with the horses or your estate. It is a relatively econminically neutral option, which benefits both parties, and reduces financial risk for the college. Good luck, Matt |
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| Jam Lady |
Hello all. I'm in the United States, currently in New Jersey but previously in Connecticut - both on the east coast. In the small suburban town I lived in, in Connecticut, there was a grange fair every year. They had ox pulling competition. Children with young steers were sweet to watch, but to see a pair of eleven year old Holstein oxen was like watching a mountain walk. They pulled 2.5 ton on the stone boat, then added on several adults and some children in addition and the beasts just trudged away. Mostly Holsteins, also Red Devon and Brown Swiss. Horns tipped and capped with brass balls.
My friend who had the local sawmill there started with oxen, then switched to Belgian draft horses. He wasn't working the animals, just entering in competition. I was coordinator of the community gardens at the time, and I'd let him practice plowing with them on our fallow land. To move the team the few miles from home to field he had a standard 4-horse trailer on which he had to raise the roof, just to hold the two draft horses. Interestingly, I remember John telling me that you had to stable and load the pair in the same orientation as they'd be hitched to the plow. Off horse must always be in the off-side position. Beautiful to watch the horses work in a 60 acre field, plowing 2 acres of the 6 acre garden area - not a building, power line, or roadway in sight. If people are looking for a smaller draft animal would you consider a Morgan horse? Smaller than draft breeds, very sturdy, all purpose for draft, carriage, riding use. Or are they not common in the UK? |
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| clydesdaleclopper |
I agree you need to consider which draft breed to get if you go down the horsey route. Drafts are certainly a lot less hassle than many other horse breeds. They do well barefoot so you don't need to worry about shoeing which can be very expensive with such big feet.
We have a Clydesdale and a couple of Comtois. The Comtois are great as they don't have feathers to get all muddy, are able to turn in much smaller areas as they are only 15hh, and are easy to get hold of (unlike the Sufflok Punch) as the French breed them for meat (when you see the size of the backside on our 2 year old you can see why). |
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| Ixy |
See the french have got it right
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| clydesdaleclopper |
I have to admit I somethimes horrify my neighbour who "rescues" these Comtois when I affectionately call one of ours "sausage"
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