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OtleyLad

Help with energy use/provision please

Some Government statistics about energy use where I live from
here

DOMESTIC ELECTRICITY AND GAS USE, 2010-11
Area E02002332 in Leeds
Average consumption of gas, per meter, kilo-watt hours: 15,024kwh - (total consumption is 37,530,260kwh). The average per meter in Britain is 14,898kwh

Average consumption of electricity, per meter, kwh: 4,273kwh - (total consumption is 9,626,729kwh). The average per meter in Britain is 4,709kwh

If I'm interpreting these figures correctly then total energy used in a year from Gas was equivalent to 37,530,260kwh and from electircity 9,626,729kwh.
Total of approx 47,157,000 kwh.
Average 129,000 kwh per day

My question is: what installed generation capacity would be required? What is the formula?

Ultimately I'd like to know what size (in MW) coal/gas plant could meet this demand.
And also the same for wind turbines or solar panels.

Can anyone help?
Treacodactyl

I don't think you have enough info as you need to know the peak demand to work out what sized power generation you need. You only have a daily average, which is a small fraction of the peak load.
OtleyLad

You only have a daily average, which is a small fraction of the peak load.


Isn't the daily consumption a quantity consumed for that day? So it would be a sum of the various low and high demand values?

I would have thought somewhere there is a rule of thumb relating overall daily consumption to peak demand (like a simple fraction)?
Treacodactyl

You only have a daily average, which is a small fraction of the peak load.


Isn't the daily consumption a quantity consumed for that day? So it would be a sum of the various low and high demand values?

I would have thought somewhere there is a rule of thumb relating overall daily consumption to peak demand (like a simple fraction)?

Daily consumption for an average day, it will be much higher on a cold winters day. There is data that could be used to extrapolate but I don't know how detailed you need it, it will depend on what type of users you have such as business vs domestic, large student population etc.

Having a quick search I couldn't find anything where you could plug in your numbers and get a simple "you need this sized power station answer". (There's also all sorts of numbers such as capacity factor that need to be taken into account as well).
dpack

iirc peak demand in terms of the size of sudden spikes varies both over the course of a week ( industrial use, sunday lunch etc etc ) , over a year ( dark winter evenings, etc etc ) and due to rarer events (world cup half time etc etc ) and can have localised anomalies from a national average both in terms of timing and size of demand (local bakery , tram system etc etc )

some are predictable (christmas) and some are not (9/11) a system needs to have the capacity for unpredictable peaks.

it also needs the capacity to deal with part of the generation side of it breaking and therefore causing a sudden extra demand on the rest of it

the stuff warren buffet is doing with renewable local grid systems might be useful background info ,google scholar and patents could have some technical details.
iirc much of the technical detail of the uk national grid is covered by the osa so getting details of some aspects could require deep thought and working around that from non restricted info.
Slim

Instead of simplifying down to just one plant, shouldn't you be slightly more complex and make it two? (i.e., a baseload plant and a peaker plant)

For wind calc. substitute in average production for baseload plant, but keep peaker plant, etc.....
Treacodactyl

For wind calc. substitute in average production for baseload plant, but keep peaker plant, etc.....

The peaker plant would have to have to cope with the maximum load as you would need to cope with a peak seasonal load with the possibility of no wind.
Slim

For wind calc. substitute in average production for baseload plant, but keep peaker plant, etc.....

The peaker plant would have to have to cope with the maximum load as you would need to cope with a peak seasonal load with the possibility of no wind.

You trying to drag us down into the details? Is there industry on the grid that will change power usage in response to off-peak pricing incentives? Are the people culturally okay with rolling brownouts? What's the climate (some places have reliable solar, some have reliable wind, some have neither). blah blah blah.

The scale of the modeling needs to be appropriate for the scale of the question. We don't really know the details of Otley lad's questions
Treacodactyl

You trying to drag us down into the details?

Almost the opposite, I was trying to simplify the question.
Hairyloon

Re: Help with energy use/provision please

Average 129,000 kwh per day
Averaging 5.3MW
Personally I typically peak at about 20x my average, but it's entirely conceivable that I could go to 40x or even more, but the probability of a city doing that is probably fairly low.

What is the actual purpose to the question? Are we looking for an integrated energy supply for the city?
OtleyLad

Re: Help with energy use/provision please

Average 129,000 kwh per day
Averaging 5.3MW
Personally I typically peak at about 20x my average, but it's entirely conceivable that I could go to 40x or even more, but the probability of a city doing that is probably fairly low.

What is the actual purpose to the question? Are we looking for an integrated energy supply for the city?

Just to get an idea of what sort of generation capacity would be needed if Otley was ever to become anything close to self-sufficent in energy production.
The local Green Party is discussing this as well as the local council - looking at what's possible in the renewable area.

I would have thought somewhere there is a rule of thumb that says a 'typical' town of populatation x requires y MW of energy generation.
A substantial part of this could be met with a mix of solar/wind/hydro. The river Wharfe runs through the town, we're surrounded by high moors and so there's the option of pumped water storage.
Behemoth

As the others have said you don't want averages you need consumption profiles, daily and seasonal. From there you can work out your generation capacity, imports, carrots and sticks. For instance the economies of scale may mean that it's better to buy in peak supply than ask your small community to pay for and maintain predominantly idle capacity. Hairyloon

As the others have said you don't want averages you need consumption profiles, daily and seasonal...
Well yes and no.
If the aim is to be somewhere "close to self sufficient", then the relevant question is how close is close?
Self sufficient on average is probably a lot closer than most places and gives us an easy answer to the question: call it 6MW, or 7MW for a bit more leeway.

That is where I would start, then look at the options for energy storage to iron out the peaks and troughs.
dpack

there are some green/conservation issues that need careful consideration with using moving water but gravity, a river ( and perhaps over capacity of dams from the industrial past ?) combined with some decent tech moving splosh is a huge advantage when seeking a local energy supply.

buying in peak and exporting some production ie still part of the NG might be an option but have a look at the tech/money side of buffet's projects ,he isnt daft at making investments work and he sees "green" as a nice earner so there is scope for using an economic as well as zero co2 argument if you get to the needing investment cash stage.
iirc he is investing in a sunny/windy place with no moving water but the overall plan might be adaptable to your situation.
Behemoth

Possibly of use.

http://ukerc.rl.ac.uk/DC/cgi-bin/edc_search.pl?GoButton=Detail&WantComp=42&WantResult=LD&WantText=profile&

http://ijeee.org/volums/volume7/IJEEE7PDF/Paper727.pdf

http://www.energysavingtrust.org.uk/sites/default/files/reports/PoweringthenationreportCO332.pdf
Slim

Clearly not knowing your situation from here I'll chime in those outsider questions that hopefully help (?)

Is there a dense city center, or at least enough large companies/institutions that would make co-generation of heat/hot-water and power a viable pursuit? A co-generation plant could be fueled with biomass, trash, or just straight natural gas and may still represent an increase in efficiency.

You mentioned moors for hydro storage, what do you think would be the cheapest renewable suited to your location to be producing the excess energy that you'd be storing?

I'm guessing that you don't have the area (or annual exposure) to be producing enough solar to be worth trying to store it. Better to just include any solar into your daily baseline (with the realization that it won't be consistent. It probably won't be a large percentage anyway).

Do you have good wind siting near you? Could the municipality (or county, or whatever scale your gov't is on) build off-shore wind elsewhere?

My (uninformed) ideal from my guesses of the area would be plenty of off-shore wind with excess off-peak power pumping water for the hydro storage. Serious investigation of co-generation as well.


Thanks for letting me play internet armchair quarterback Laughing
Hairyloon

I still think there is a lot of potential in flywheels.
This project looked very promising, but a drop in the price of oil has put it on indefinite hold.
I have wondered if it might be worth talking to him about a deal, but that's not a project I could manage.
Slim

http://www.gereports.com/unique-combo-wind-hydro-power-revolutionize-renewable-energy/

This is the example of wind and hydro storage I was thinking of. I think it'll be a really nice system where topography and land use allow
Hairyloon

Quote:
Built into the hills will be a hydroelectric plant capable of producing 16 megawatts of power, while the wind farm on its own will produce 13.6 megawatts.

OK, but for how long? That does not look to be a very big water tank.

An interesting idea that was put to me recently is to use ice as an energy store. It is counter-intuitive, but all you need to run a heat engine is a heat gradient...
dpack

the moors are windy and there is a decent height difference in the area.
pumped storage and or hydro seem plausible.

locations and costings could be worked out which gets back to identifying peak and base loads.

having had a while to consider it and reading the comments i recon there are quite a few pennine communities that could become renewable energy hubs.
hudderfield with two steep rivers, plenty of redundant dam capacity at various heights and acres of flat windy moors seems a good candidate.

york however is not very promising as it has little gravity (unless we dammed a few of the dales valleys and got a long wire Twisted Evil ) it isn't windy but although it isnt very sunny we could put pv/solar thermal water on the roofs for at least a partial local system if it was on grid as well . as to storage at the mo the NG would probably be the best option.
we are sitting over a couple of centuries of coal and shale gas Rolling Eyes but that isn't quite the idea i would suggest.
OtleyLad

http://www.gereports.com/unique-combo-wind-hydro-power-revolutionize-renewable-energy/

This is the example of wind and hydro storage I was thinking of. I think it'll be a really nice system where topography and land use allow

Looks promising - the Yorkshire Dales provide a similar topography.
(of course there would be an outcry about it - but not perhaps when people realise the urgency/need to switch to renewables).

Just to mention a quote from the above:
"Wind is a clean, cheap source of renewable energy, but itís also fickle. You can never be sure whether the wind will blow."

Even with current weather forecasting the availability of wind is becoming much more predictable - making the switching to other sources less of a problem (in terms of time).
OtleyLad


york however is not very promising as it has little gravity (unless we dammed a few of the dales valleys and got a long wire Twisted Evil ) .
I am sure we could come ot some mutually beneficial arrangment Wink
OtleyLad

Possibly of use.

http://ukerc.rl.ac.uk/DC/cgi-bin/edc_search.pl?GoButton=Detail&WantComp=42&WantResult=LD&WantText=profile&

http://ijeee.org/volums/volume7/IJEEE7PDF/Paper727.pdf

http://www.energysavingtrust.org.uk/sites/default/files/reports/PoweringthenationreportCO332.pdf

Didn't read every page but yes useful.
Treacodactyl

(of course there would be an outcry about it - but not perhaps when people realise the urgency/need to switch to renewables).

Of course your first step, which I assume you're doing, would be to tell people if they cut down on energy use they'd need a smaller power plant or less wind turbines? After all you can argue wind turbines are better than gas but they are not perfect. There's now evidence they slice & dice plenty of wildlife such as birds of prey and bats ( https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/nov/07/wind-turbine-collisions-killing-hundreds-of-uk-bats-each-month-study-finds ).
Slim

The cheapest kwh is the one not generated and all..... Laughing Behemoth

Otley has a nice river, a weir and a mill race. Handy for something I'd imagine. Nick

The cheapest kwh is the one not generated and all..... Laughing

Not in Northern Ireland. The ones you generate get you paid a subsidy more than the cost.
OtleyLad


Is there a dense city center, or at least enough large companies/institutions that would make co-generation of heat/hot-water and power a viable pursuit?
Otley is a modest town of about 7,000 households.


You mentioned moors for hydro storage, what do you think would be the cheapest renewable suited to your location to be producing the excess energy that you'd be storing?
Definately wind turbines.


I'm guessing that you don't have the area (or annual exposure) to be producing enough solar to be worth trying to store it. Better to just include any solar into your daily baseline (with the realization that it won't be consistent. It probably won't be a large percentage anyway).

You're right - its a beautiful place when its sunny though.

Do you have good wind siting near you? Could the municipality (or county, or whatever scale your gov't is on) build off-shore wind elsewhere?

Surrounded by open high moorland. But we are a long way from the sea.


Thanks for letting me play internet armchair quarterback Laughing

You're welcome Wink
OtleyLad

(of course there would be an outcry about it - but not perhaps when people realise the urgency/need to switch to renewables).

Of course your first step, which I assume you're doing, would be to tell people if they cut down on energy use they'd need a smaller power plant or less wind turbines? After all you can argue wind turbines are better than gas but they are not perfect. There's now evidence they slice & dice plenty of wildlife such as birds of prey and bats ( https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/nov/07/wind-turbine-collisions-killing-hundreds-of-uk-bats-each-month-study-finds ).

There's also conflicting evidence that that report should be filed in the dodgy dossier section.
Treacodactyl

There's also conflicting evidence that that report should be filed in the dodgy dossier section.

Care to post up any links to that or are you just dismissing the rather inconvenient truth?

It looks like you could argue over their total numbers but not the fact dead bats have been found under wind turbines. Do your reports suggest they died due to other factors, suicide perhaps?
dpack

re the bat issue if there is one, are there many bats on ilkley moor?

do lights on the turbine sites attract moths and therefore bats?

could a light rig divert bats from danger areas?

what else could be done to safeguard any bats ?

much as i am fond of bats and wish them no harm in the greater scheme of things are some casualties acceptable? could potential casualties be offset by population boosting schemes elsewhere?
that seems a bit callous but it is the sort of thinking that seems to hold weight with planners, conservationists and the public.
from personal experience i preferred to support (well at least not to oppose) 7 million tons of stone from 3 out of the way sheep fields than to fight against 1 million from a very disruptive, biodiverse and archaeologically important site .
i would support a useful and sensible low carbon power scheme that overall added more bats that it removed even if that would be rough on the bats at the turbine sites.
dpack

i favour moving water over wind if it is available but that also has critter issues as well as various engineering ones.

pumped water storage combined with wind seems worth looking into.

using gravity and water for power generation can be done in various ways ,big dam/big drop/big turbine at one end of the engineering scale and small drop/screw at the other with a lot of options in between.
considering you have gravity, water and some dams/weirs already looking into the possible options seems sensible.
Mistress Rose

Some 'conservationists' get rather silly about birds and bats. A big wheel was only given planning permission for certain limited times of the year in Portsmouth because of the risk of 'birds flying into it'. Admittedly Farlington Marshes are an important transit/nesting grounds for certain types of migratory birds, but the wheel would have been quite a distance away and big enough for the birds to see. It also wouldn't move very fast.
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