| Archive for Downsizer For an ethical approach to consumption |
| Jam and Pickles |
How much land is enough?Hi all,Myself and my GF are considering quitting our city jobs and buying a small holding. So my question is: For self-substistence (family of 4/5), how much land is required? Thanks in advance for any responses! Pickles |
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| tahir |
How long is a piece of string? How much/what you can produce per acre depends on climate, soil, water and time availability, finances...
Whereabouts are you looking, and will there be 2 adults working it full time? |
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| sean |
And remember that subsistence isn't enough. You'll need to generate cash for Council Tax, diesel, all sorts of stuff. | ||||
| Jam and Pickles |
First - thanks for the very swift responses.
Our plan is to move to the Dordogne in France. At first I figure I'll farm full time and the missus will take at least part time work, with the aim of both of us working on the farm eventually. I understand the need to generate additional income for utilities, taxes and the like (admittedly I haven't worked calculations yet). I'd want the land for arable and livestock, but on a small scale of family needs and the ability to sell goods at a local market. I also figure I'd like enough land that expansion into other sources of income would be possible (camping etc...). But this is outside of what I'm asking here. I understand it's a difficult question and that soil quality is very much part of the equation, but some ball park numbers would help us no end. Again thanks! |
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| Tavascarow |
Also whether you're considering livestock or not.
You can make a small living from an acre of land if you just stick with growing & poultry but larger stock are obviously going to need more land. 
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| tahir |
As is water availibility, and whether you intend to keep livestock. Where's Simon? How much land has he got? |
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| mochyn |
I'd say go for as much as you can get! You'll always find a use for it: as you say, camping is one possibility, woodlands, livestock... | ||||
| tahir |
Me too |
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| Jam and Pickles |
This was my thought, but I'm a city bloke and I actually had to google "1 acre" to see how much it actually is (there's a nice aerial photo of 1 acre) 
We've seen places with 7 acres, which seems a lot but if things work out and live stock (veal calves and pigs) come into the equation, then I figure at some point 7 acres may not be ideal. Obviously that's some way in the future but I want to future-proof myself when purchacing. |
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| colour it green |
part of the equation is working out how comfortably you want to live. do you want to look for other ways to make money such as letting out etc?
there never is enough land.. always want more... just like there never are enough freezers |
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| mochyn |
How true. |
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| Jam and Pickles |
Thanks again, but I'm still in the dark here. Is 7 acres in the ball park? Is 20 more like it?
Cheers Pickles |
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| RichardW |
1 acre could provide an income for you all to live IF you only grew high value crops intensively & sold them direct to the consumer. 100 acres might not provide an income if you only extensively grazed it & sold it all to the livestock markets. Some place in between these is the place that you want. The trouble is with out knowing the land, climate, local markets & marketability of the goods you will produce its hard to know. Also remember you will pay a large "fools tax" as you also need the skills & experiance to make it all work. You also need to know what you will like doing cos if you hate the stuff you are doing you will do it baddly & then fail. | ||||
| tahir |
So much of it depends on what your objectives are and how you think you'll achieve them.
Will you be growing your own firewood? Will you be keeping livestock? (If so what) Will you have finances available to setup say; greenhouse/polytunnel/fruitcages/orchards or buy equipment? When you say arable do you mean you intend to grow your own grain? Will you hunt/forage/fish? If I had (say) a 3 acre plot with no livestock in Essex I'd be fairly confident of providing all the veg (including onions, spuds etc) plus (a limited range of) fruit from June to Feb for a 5 person family with good water supplies, polytunnels, fruit cages, etc. But that's not accounting for staples, sugars, fats, meat or any kind of income. |
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| Lorrainelovesplants |
I would suggest, (as you have little experience) that you do a 'smallholder for a day' type course, preferably where you can see how much work it takes looking after animals/doing fencing etc.
It would give you an idea of what you are thinking about and let you see what is feasible for you and your family. We thought our kids would do X, Y & Z. We were basically told to pi** off for 3 years. This is the first year they have really helped without acting like martyrs. Also, we both now have very good first name relationships with the town osteopaths as we are such regular visitors. |
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| Jam and Pickles |
Answers to questions:
I view the start up as a progressive process, starting small and making mistakes on a small scale. The land will be used for chicken keeping initially, hoping to move to keeping pigs and veal (not breeding). Fishing, hunting are not part of the plan but opportunities will be taken as they come up. Not growing grain but growing firewood. I intend to have the finances for a polytunnel and general equipment (factored into overall budget). We've already decided to take a course in small holding's, this is certainly part of our build-up process. I can appreciate it's an open question, but I'm trying to get an idea of how much money's involved from the onset, it's difficult! Thjanks v much for responses so far! |
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| Treacodactyl |
I agree it will greatly vary but as a very rough idea I'd be looking at 20 acres rather than just 7. I'd want about 10 acres for firewood but also remember that can provide a fair bit of food and can be used to keep chickens, bees etc in. I think France has a land tax which might cause problems if you buy too much at once. | ||||
| boisdevie1 |
The idea of selling at local markets sounds wonderful - but aren't people already selling into local markets? You might end up selling very little.
Do you speak French? If not learn - QUICK. If you have lots of land then you can probably grow most of what you need. But then you'll need cash for all the other stuff. You can't pay your electricity/phone/council tax with onions. But I like your idea - but PLAN, PLAN, PLAN. And don't count on finding work in France so easily - it's not. Bonne chance. Why the Dordogne? Surely there are far cheaper parts of France - such as the Creuse. |
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| crofter |
Once you have got some land, you will never have enough. "I don't want all the land in the world, just that which borders my own" | ||||
| judith |
Are you perhaps approaching this from the wrong angle?
How much money do you need to live? Excluding your set-up costs, which will be three times what you estimate them to be, how much will you need to make each year? Running a car, taxes, insurance, new clothes, holidays back home, self-employed contributions, ongoing costs. Be honest and realistic about these. What standard of living do you really want? What standard of living is your family prepared to accept. Don't be at all romantic about this - poverty isn't fun, even in a beautiful setting. (And, as BdV says, unless your OH is French, don't assume that she will find a job in a rural area. There are precious few for the local people.) Once you know how much you need to make each year, it will be easier to formulate a plan of how much land / what to grow on it / what animals to keep, etc. |
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| Bebo |
And if its fenced properly, pigs as well. Pigs love woodland, particularly if it has trees in it that things they like to eat drop off of (oak and beech for example). |
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| Treacodactyl |
Pigs are covered by the etc bit  although I expect you need to be careful they don't do too much damage.
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| Jam and Pickles |
It's starting to look like 7 acres is very limiting in options, which is what I suspected. | ||||
| Ixy |
This is seriously not something you can do sums on.
You could have a million acres on good land with warm sun during the day and plenty of rain at night, no local competition and a local populace dying to buy your meat veg whatever...and still muck it up. If anybody says 'oh you need X many acres' as a definitive answer...they're round the twist. |
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| Blue Peter |
Though, there are some standard amounts of land for standard "tasks" are there not? e.g. I think that space and water heating (and cooking?) in a well-insulated house requires something like 1- 2 ha of coppiced woodland; for a totally grass fed cow and calf (including over-wintering hay) you need about 4 acres(?) and so on, Peter. |
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| RichardW |
Or keep the cow/calf in the barn & buy all the feed / forage in?
You could do 1,000's of pigs on 1 acre if they are inside. |
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| Blue Peter |
Obviously, but there are some numbers out there which can give you a guide, and which presumably be helpful to the OP-er, Peter. |
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| RGT |
An acre of stony sheepwalk or Spruce plantation isn't the same as an acre of prime black garden soil, obviously, as reflected in the relative prices. But you want as much land as your budget will support, trading off against other variables if neccessary - eg a nice modernised farmhouse is good, but tarting up buildings is relatively easy.
The enormous ethical problems of indoor pigs aside, it's a pretty capital intensive approach if done anything like properly. |
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| RichardW |
Oh yeh intensive will eat up the capital but should produce the profits as well.
As has been said you need to start at the end & work back. Once you know how much you need to make then you can work out how to make it. Or you will be making lots of plans only top find that you are short of your needed funds. You also need to decided in intensive, extensive or a mix. The biggest factor is making sure you can sell what you need to at the price you need. To many fail to market properly so even if you get all the rest right you still fail. |
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| Millymollymandy |
You need to take into account the lack of rain in many parts of France during the summer so you'd probably need more land for whatever you want to do than you would in a rainy part of the UK. I was told by a horsey person that the rule of thumb for horses (per horse) is one acre in the UK but one hectare (about 2.5 acres) in France. Yes I know you didn't mention horses but I can't quote anything about other grazing animals. Obviously chooks won't need any more space.
Good luck anyway, or rather bonne chance! |
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| Green Rosie |
A bit off topic I know but I'll echo what Boisdevie says about finding work. Many people come over to Fracne and say they'll do anything for work such as shelf stacking BUT it really is hard to find work in France unless you speak the lingo or intend to work purely for the English community in your area. And whilst land is cheap in France, it is not a cheap country to live in. | ||||
| Ixy |
nope - what grass have you got? how well's it been cared for etc etc etc - 4 acres of mountainside won't produce enough whereas 2 acres of lush well kept vaired lowland grass might do it. Also - what cow? Even within a breed individuals will eat more or less than they 'should'. |
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| Pel |
There are ball mark/point figures, but like ixy said it can all change dependant on what sort of land you have, breed and climate.
So lets say you have flat Perenial ryegrass and clover mix, perhaps with a few other varities thrown in, its well draining, but does hold in a little moisture, and you had the 'perfect' weather. Then i'd reckon you could go off the ball mark figures. Trying to think back to my HND but the figures went something like this (per year): 1 x black and white high yielding dairy cow 2.5 acres 1 beef cow like a hereford 1 acre weaned calf 0.75 acres. 1 lamb 0.10 acre (i cant remember ewes) pigs (sows) well rotationaly 10 on an acre, otherwise left on 1 acre for a year is 5-6. Chickens free range last time i read was 1,000 birds to an acre. I cant remember any other figures. Though the chickens and pigs you would have to feed concentrates or grind your own feed as the land wouldnt have what they need, and you'd probably still need to give a little cake to the B&W cow even with its own 2.5 acres of grass. In my head 7 acres wouldnt be enough, maybe nearer 30+ or so if you had said land above, but there are too many factors just to give a straight forward answer. I have to agree working backwards is best, or just a lot planning or buy something as big as you can finiacially afford (including setup up costs) and then work off that and just make do as best you can with as little or as much as you can afford. Visit the area where you want to live many times, talk to the locals see what niche you can fit into or see if you have to go down the 'big boys' route to make it finacially viable for you both to live off it. Maybe you could breed pedigrees but if crosses are selling better then perhaps thats the way to go. Also look at the slaughter houses maybe that will swing what way to go, if you need to slaughter chickens and thats 50miles you either need a lot of chickens to make the trip worth while or thing of alternatives. |
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| Jam and Pickles |
Nice one, thanks Pel - I can start to visualise things a lot more now!
Cheers Pickles |
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| paulandpatinmanche |
France is not a low tax country either, cotisations are high and there are minimum amounts to pay in all sectors. You only get 70% of your healthcare costs paid assuming you are 'in the system', which you will need to be if you are selling at markets etc. Best to work on the principle that you will not be able to get an employed job unless your french is fluent - supermarket checkout ladies with degrees are not uncommon. The autoentrepreneur system might be of use for some self employed ventures. There is a lot of information on the Anglo info forums http://angloinfo.com .
Gites and accomodation are not exactly undersubscribed activities either, we work for a franchise that provides property management services www.lesbonsvoisins.com (hope I'm allowed to put that), so take with a large pinch of salt any info given by estate agents as to the number of weeks lettings you might get from gites etc. Haven't a clue as to the area of land you might need to be self sufficient though, except that a friend's dad saw the demise of the '100 acre farmer' coming in the UK and retired before he was 60. That was the best part of 40 years ago. Having said all that we would not be too keen on returning to the UK. |