Jonnyboy
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If fatherhood is downgraded?A very interesting discussion on radio 4 this morning. They were talking with David Blunkett regarding his channel 5 'reality' programme - 'Banged up with Blunkett'
''Daily star'' title aside, there were very positive reviews given as to the seriousness and effort put into the programme. But two statistics that were quoted jumped out at me. The young offenders had high levels of illiteracy which led to confidence issues (read confidence not bravado) and they were almost excusively lacking a father, or if the father was present, then they were not a role model or mentor. One psychologist quoted the complete failure of tough measures which simply brutilised young offenders, and then went on the discuss the hugely positive effect that mentoring has on rehabilitation.
Recently a cross party amendment to insist clinics take into account the role of a father when making decisions as to the right of individuals to seek fertility treatment failed. I've quoted two comments from the debate below.
| Quote: | | Iain Duncan Smith, told MPs that children who grew up without a father were more likely to fail at school or have problems with drugs and alcohol. He said: "We are saying come on, this is common sense. All we are saying is 'Take consideration of the need of a child for a father' not 'If you don't have a father you will never get treatment'. It's only considering it." |
| Quote: | | Emily Thornberry, the MP for Islington South and Finsbury, warned: "I always worry when people start saying they are only applying common sense, because so often common sense is a cover for discrimination, narrowness and an inability to face the 21st-century." |
Obviously there are many other sociological factors to take into account, but are we in danger of trying so hard to cater for the rights of individual parents that we create a climate where the long term rights of the child as an individual are compromised?
Or is the greater issue that many fathers are complete failures as parents? And if so, how do we even begin to address that issue?
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jema
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The problem with this sort of issue is that it quickly deteriorates beyond the common sense fact that a kid in a stable two parent relationship is going to have better chances than a kid in a single parent family, and into a nasty diatribe against single parents in general.
Given that by and large stable two parent relationships are not the ones breaking up, where are the comparative statistics on how badly kids do in an unstable/abusive two parent household?
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Jamanda
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Compared with a stable, supportive one parent family.
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Jonnyboy
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| jema wrote: | The problem with this sort of issue is that it quickly deteriorates beyond the common sense fact that a kid in a stable two parent relationship is going to have better chances than a kid in a single parent family, and into a nasty diatribe against single parents in general.
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Obviously I was hoping we could do better than that.
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Mrs Fiddlesticks
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I think there is a lack of male role models in general in our society. Trying to look at things from the perspective of those who are single parents perhaps so there is no 'father' through no fault of their own.
In my own case I don't feel the boys natural father is a good role model or good at parenting but Tim more than makes up for it but of course he's not their real father. It is to my mind the responsibility of men be they fathers or not to show a positive side to masculinity. Which means aspirations, hard work, responsibility and community mindness.
It concerns me that there are less and less male teachers about so that there is a sense to boys that learning is a womens/girls thing.
It concerns me that footballers and other 'celebs' portray manhood as being about drunkeness and fame.
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Maxwell Smart
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I do think that a lot of the problems in society today can be attributed to a breakdown in family values. Not just single parents - but equally to parents who don't care or just aren't there.
Also for many family lives have become to busy with people doing their own thing and no emotional support or interaction between family members.
Just my two pence worth.
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Rob R
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| Mrs Fiddlesticks wrote: | | It concerns me that there are less and less male teachers about so that there is a sense to boys that learning is a womens/girls thing. |
Interesting point, and not one I was aware of.
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RichardW
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I think learning is declining because people see how easy it is to "win" a life style on TV. Plus they see that if they are not going to get a degree they wont get into the job market so why bother to get a qualification thats not going to get them a job thats any better than not having it in the first place.
Richard
PS yes the lack of male (and female) positive role models is a big problem.
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bagpuss
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| Mrs Fiddlesticks wrote: | | I think there is a lack of male role models in general in our society. |
Surely that can be reworded as there are a lack of good role models being presented in the media full stop
I can think of plenty of people who would be good role models but generally they aren't famous and as such don't get talked about by the media
I think at the end of the day common sense says that a child needs a stable and supportive homelife to do well in their development.
I think providing children with a stable and supportive homelife can be difficult for many reasons one of which may be how many supportive adults they have in their homelife
How to make sure all children get that without either demonizing single parents or how good having two supportive adults can be I am not sure
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Jamanda
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| Rob R wrote: | | Mrs Fiddlesticks wrote: | | It concerns me that there are less and less male teachers about so that there is a sense to boys that learning is a womens/girls thing. |
Interesting point, and not one I was aware of. |
There are fewer primary school teachers, but then I think there always were. I think it's more even in secondary schools, and thinking on it, this time is there first time in years I've had a female PGCE student. The last five have all been men.
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Jonnyboy
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There is only one male teacher in our kid's primary school.
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Rob R
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Come to think of it we had about 50/50 in our primary school when I started and by the time I finished it was all female apart from the headmaster.
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Frewen
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I might be misremembering, but I think Steve Biddulph (sp?) in his book on raising boys suggesting that young men did best when they had a father and at least one other male in their community who could show them the positives.
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Jonnyboy
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| Rob R wrote: | | Come to think of it we had about 50/50 in our primary school when I started and by the time I finished it was all female apart from the headmaster. |
Our male teacher is also the headmaster. A succinct example of both the lack of male role models and the glass ceiling effect. 
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Rob R
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Quite. Although I've just looked it up & it is now an all-female teaching staff there.
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JB
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| Jonnyboy wrote: | | Rob R wrote: | | Come to think of it we had about 50/50 in our primary school when I started and by the time I finished it was all female apart from the headmaster. |
Our male teacher is also the headmaster. A succinct example of both the lack of male role models and the glass ceiling effect. |
Not necessarily true. By virtue of the fact that headmasters (or senior judges or major generals or any other person in a senior position) is likely to be older then the proportion of women in those roles should reflect the proportion in junior positions a generation previously. Add in five or ten years of career break for a woman with a family and the lack of female head teachers is not a glass ceiling but a fair representation of the gender balance of techers qualifying sometime back in the 1970s.
But back to the role model question.
There is also a problem that teachers do not receive the same respect or pay that they might get from another career so the people who go into teaching are either not career driven or sometimes have ended up in teaching because they had given up on other career options. Not the best start for establishing a positive role model.
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jema
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Amipest had respect for very few of her teachers, teacher who can't gain respect are not likely to be effective role models.
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Stacey
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| Frewen wrote: | | I might be misremembering, but I think Steve Biddulph (sp?) in his book on raising boys suggesting that young men did best when they had a father and at least one other male in their community who could show them the positives. |
No, you're right. He used one example of apprenticeships where there would traditionally be a very strong, male role model.
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BahamaMama
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I used to know a guy who had had a 'turbulent' youth and who had had several (close) scrapes with the law. By the time I met him he was a totally reformed character, a carpenter and one of the nicest people you could ever wish to meet. He had completely turned his life around and provided young offenders with a room in his house for a short time and mentoring for a bit longer, when the youngsters came out of prison so that they had a home and also a home address so that they could then start to sort themselves out.
He was an absolute inspiration.
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Brownbear
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I find rather disturbing the way in which examination results are announced by sex - with girls invariably doing better these days. Whilst it is nice to celebrate achievement, I wonder what would be said if the relative scholastic success of the genders were reversed?
Whilst an element of triumphalism is perhaps to be expected, it is scarcely a success for anyone if society consists of well-educated women and truculent, resentful males.
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Stacey
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| Brownbear wrote: | I find rather disturbing the way in which examination results are announced by sex - with girls invariably doing better these days. Whilst it is nice to celebrate achievement, I wonder what would be said if the relative scholastic success of the genders were reversed?
Whilst an element of triumphalism is perhaps to be expected, it is scarcely a success for anyone if society consists of well-educated women and truculent, resentful males. |
I've had a problem with that for some time. Being the mother of three boys maybe influenced me but I've always been uncomfortable with it being seen as a good thing that girls have overtaken boys in exam results. Why does one have to be better then the other? If the education system now favours a female learning style over male then surely it's failing just as much as it was before 
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hamster
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But men get more firsts at university.
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Brownbear
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| hamster wrote: | But men get more firsts at university.
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They also get more Thirds. The female students, based only on my observation, largely turn out good, well-written pieces of work that are a safe 64% - they read the right books and follow the conventions of producing the essays or answers.
The chaps are more likely to float their own ideas, some of which are excellent and excellently expressed, and some of which are the result of insufficient reading and 'winging it'.
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