tahir
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If you're planting ElderIt's worth thinking about American Elder, this flowers continuously through to Decemberish, has a slightly more vanilla/less citrus fragrance. saw it on my Forest Gardening course.
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Res
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I mentioned to one of my colleges this morning about possibly cultivating Elder on my plot for two reasons.
1) I like and use the flowers, although they are short lived.
2) They would act as a natural wind break around the plot and as they dont tend to be dense canopies, would not block out too much light, it may actually work ito my advantage, giving dappalled shade.
The one draw back would be the water and nutrient demand, taking it away from the crops.
I would want to stick with our native Elder, but that is just my personnal view.
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tahir
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I don't think they're particularly demanding in terms of nutrients
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Res
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I hope not, it would also make a bit of a screen so I can look at my T&M catalogue without being disturbed 
Can you grow it like a hedge? albeit a loose one (but we like loose!)
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tahir
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It's much too lanky to grow as a hedge, you're best bet would be to grow it with some underplanting, something a little more dense and then to finish off with some comfrey (Bocking 14 doesn't self seed) as a nitrogen providing mulch.
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Jonnyboy
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Problem with elder is that it's just damn ugly for most of the year.
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tahir
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The american one looks OK, as i say it's in flower over a long period and underplanted with something else would be OK.
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Jonnyboy
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Hmm, cultivated elder in my mini orchard perhaps.
I wonder if you can buy it grafted on a semi dwarfing rootstock
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Res
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| Jonnyboy wrote: | | Problem with elder is that it's just damn ugly for most of the year. |
I dont mind that, anything thats green over the allotment is good, except, AAAAH! bl***y bindweed........mutter..........rant.......gibber.....
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Res
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| Jonnyboy wrote: | Hmm, cultivated elder in my mini orchard perhaps.
I wonder if you can buy it grafted on a semi dwarfing rootstock |
There is the option of an ornimental red Elder, but that kind of defeats the object about it being multi-fuctional!
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cab
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I'd be unlikely to cultivate it as it is so very, very common in the wild.
And I'm wondering what to do with the elder I found in the garden, potted up because it seemed a shame to kill it, and which is now a foot high and looking like it wants out...
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tahir
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| Jonnyboy wrote: | Hmm, cultivated elder in my mini orchard perhaps.
I wonder if you can buy it grafted on a semi dwarfing rootstock |
You don't need a semi dwarf variety, you can keep it shrubby just by pruning. There are loads of cultivated varieties out there now. I'll definitely be planting some of the American stuff cos it's about the same time as apples....
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Mrs Fiddlesticks
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I can't believe you are actually *planting* elder!  It appears all by itself here! We've cut down two saplings that appeared under the fence at the side of the house and there are two more in the garden waiting to be dealt with! I like the flowers etc etc, but be careful how easily they can self seed and take over!
There's a black one in the garden centre that looks nice but I don't know what the flowers or berries are like!
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Jonnyboy
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Now, now, we aren't talking about planting wild elder, we are talking about a variety with a later growing season. What's wrong with that?
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Bugs
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| Fiddlesticks Julie wrote: | | There's a black one in the garden centre that looks nice but I don't know what the flowers or berries are like! |
Nanny has the black one in the background of her reindeer hide pictures, pink flowers actually look really nice against the purpley leaves - perhaps ask what the berries are like?
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Treacodactyl
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Common elder can be cut down and it re-grows so doesn't have to get too leggy. Any dead wood often gets Jew's ears fungi on them. IIRC you shouldn't burn elder wood as the witches and goblins get you, an old saying due to the usefulness of elder.
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tahir
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So coppiced elder and comfrey with perhaps some wild strawberries providing ground cover?
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Jonnyboy
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I might put my goosberry bushes under it.
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Res
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| Fiddlesticks Julie wrote: | | they can self seed and take over! ! |
Yes, I am aware they are sometimes regarded as a weed
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Treacodactyl
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I'm not sure how long it would take to flower after coppicing. I'm also not sure if the young shoots would be appertising to rabbits and deer, I'd go for pollarding if you may have a problem.
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Trev
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... and no mention of Elder-flower Champange yet!
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tahir
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| Jonnyboy wrote: | | I might put my goosberry bushes under it. |
Excellent idea
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Res
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| Trev wrote: | | ... and no mention of Elder-flower Champange yet! |
NOW thats what I was talking about when I mentioned 'multi-functional' 
| Treacodactyl wrote: | | I'd go for pollarding if you may have a problem |
I dont think elder would pollard very well as it is not a strong wood, liable to splitting and cracking, so making it top heavy would probably cause you to much trouble. You dont want it falling on you prize crops during high winds.
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Res
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| Jonnyboy wrote: | | I might put my goosberry bushes under it. |
I was thinking more along the lines of providing dappled shade for my lettuces etc. That way they wont be so quick to bolt.
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Rob R
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| Treacodactyl wrote: | | I'm not sure how long it would take to flower after coppicing. I'm also not sure if the young shoots would be appertising to rabbits and deer, I'd go for pollarding if you may have a problem. |
The young shoots will grow so quickly during the summer that the rabbits & deer won't get desperate enough to eat it 
The foreign varieties must not be as invasive, but whenever It always surprises me when I see native elder being sold by nurseries/garden centres, as like Blackthorn, I can't understand why anyone would actually want to buy the stuff at least I guess you only have to shell out once- then spend the rest of your life cutting it back  On the other hand if anyone wants to buy some cuttings...
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Res
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| Rob R wrote: | | then spend the rest of your life cutting it back |
Its all food for the composter and in turn your crops 
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Rob R
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| Res wrote: | | Rob R wrote: | | then spend the rest of your life cutting it back |
Its all food for the composter and in turn your crops |
If only we could find a reasonably priced chipper to keep on top of it 
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Nanny
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elderi do indeed have the dark leaved elder.........i belive it's called maybe Black Beauty or maybe Black Knight........only been planted about 5 years and is huge...........
the flowers are a beautiful dusty pink with the normal lovely elder flower smell, it fruits as well as the wild one........
i made some cordial with the flowers last year and although pink it tasted exactly the same as the wild cordial
it is a rampant plant though
i am going to have to have a good prune this year to make a bit more space for the second greenhouse
i have never propogated the thing but i would imagine it wouldn't be terribly difficult
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Bugs
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Hmmm, very interesting, I'm not a pink person but it looked very pretty in your pics and it makes a change that it's useful as well..elderflower rose wine! Thanks Nanny
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Res
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| Rob R wrote: | | If only we could find a reasonably priced chipper to keep on top of it |
You dont need one for elder, just a sharp spade 
The quick growing branches dont take long to break down and adds the required 'woody' content for the compost mix. Any thicker stems can be used for plant supports/pea sticks/bean poles etc. then after a season in use plus overwintering outside in the wet etc. are already part rotted and can then be broken up and put into the compost.
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dougal
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I spent a chunk of last weekend shredding elder...
It shreds easily, the only problems being when it clogged the output chute. Its pretty wet and sappy stuff. And shredders love long straight shoots.
BTW, eBay: search for shredders in 'home and garden' and then sort by distance. People don't like the idea of courier-ing something so big, ugly and heavy. If you go for a "buyer collects only" item, you can get a real bargain.
I got a 1800w Alko in excellent condition for £41.
Now, elder pruning advice. What's the best thing for flowers and berries?
Do they come only on last year's wood? (In which case, I ought to be leaving some.) Or on new growth - in which case I can be really brutal with it (it needs it). Berries out of reach with a stick, even from a stepladder is simply not the idea...
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Nanny
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elderi have a feeling it's on last years wood though of course someone can correct me if i'm wrong
you can take hell and all out of an elder and it keeps coming back
last autumn i hacked off a very great deal and i will have to again this autumn, it's hugmongous again..................
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Rob R
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| Res wrote: | | Rob R wrote: | | If only we could find a reasonably priced chipper to keep on top of it |
You dont need one for elder, just a sharp spade |
You haven't seen how much elder & blackthorn we have
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Treacodactyl
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| Rob R wrote: | | It always surprises me when I see native elder being sold by nurseries/garden centres, as like Blackthorn, I can't understand why anyone would actually want to buy the stuff |
When we moved in we bought blackthorn whips for the back garden. As it's poor chalk they are taking a while to establish but will make a good area for wildlife. Interestingly seveal elder plants have turned up on their own but are not growing fast.
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Rob R
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| Treacodactyl wrote: | | When we moved in we bought blackthorn whips for the back garden. As it's poor chalk they are taking a while to establish but will make a good area for wildlife. Interestingly seveal elder plants have turned up on their own but are not growing fast. |
You'd have been better with buckthorn for chalk & a bit of a mixture for wildlife- make sure you keep it controlled when it does get established or the wildlife value will decrease over time.
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Treacodactyl
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There is buckthorn in the garden, and yew, wild cherry, holly and a few other bits and bobs. I added the blackthorn, hawthorn, hazel, field maple and some wild roses. The field maple and hazels have done very well and the blackthorn less so but is should form a reasonable area that can be pruned back.
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Rob R
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Sounds very good. As you have probably guessed, blackthorn grows like a (very prolific) weed round here It even crops up twenty yards into the field (having said that, some of the large blachtorn 'hedges' are nearly that wide )
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Res
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| Rob R wrote: | | You haven't seen how much elder & blackthorn we have |
No, I havn't, I was only thinking about an allotment plot. oh well, maybe some more helpful hands with sharp spades!!
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