Stacey
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Integrity or sell your soul?After much thought I've just sent an email to a project I was hoping to work with telling them that the amount of bureaucracy they're implementing is stifling creativity and probably deterring interesting people from applying. It's an eco project that's just started down here and they sent out a general call for people to run workshops. They weren't too specific about what kind of workshops they wanted so I sent an email asking if they thought that feltmaking might be the sort of thing they would find useful. They wouldn't tell me and said I had to go through the first stages of the application and then they'd contact me. Fair do's but the first stage of the appication consist of naming two referrees, writing a risk assesment and providing a CRB certificate. They aren't prepared to answer a general query it seems. So, I've sent an email telling them (politely  ) that, in my opinion  ,their process is administratively too bulky and is off putting.
I ummed and ahhhed about sending it because it's unlikley they'll hire me now isn't it? However, it's something I feel really strongly about - the increasing preponderance of 'art speak' and bureaucracy being applied to the craft sector is sucking the life out of it and dragging it firmly down the road of Emporors New Clothes (again, IMO)
Should I have just shut up and applied? Am I going to have to 'sell my soul' every now and then if I want to put food on the table?
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judith
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Re: Integrity or sell your soul? | Stacey wrote: | | Am I going to have to 'sell my soul' every now and then if I want to put food on the table? |
Is it really 'selling your soul' to fill in a few forms?
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jema
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referees, risk assessments..., all for the prospect of a little work  I don't know about "soul selling" but it would certainly be off putting.
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woodsprite
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Hhhmmm, this is standard practice these days. I'm not sure i'd describe it as selling my soul either. From their point of view there is little point in taking crafts people, however good they are, to far along the route to employing them unless the craftsperson has certain things in place, especially given that 10s and probably 100s of people will apply. CRB check, risk assessment, referees, public liability insurance & child protection policy are standard. It is undeniable that these things are necessary and I have mine all grouped in a file together on my 'puter ready to email to anyone who wants them. Saves the hassle of doing it every time.
As far as I'm concerned its just professional practice.
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Nick
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It's not soul selling, at all. It is, however, ridiculous that they won't talk to you, however vaguely upfront. Time is valuable, and a CRB check costs money.
Stuff them.
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toggle
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| woodsprite wrote: | | Hhhmmm, this is standard practice these days. |
i'ts the bit where stacey says they won't answer a general question about what sort of craftspeople they want that would bother me. They are expecting a lot of paperwork before telling her if feltmaking if something they would want.
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mochyn
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I'm with you, Stacey. If they can't even tell you if felting would be appropriate, I'd dump them until they come up with a more friendly structure.
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Silas
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| mochyn wrote: | | I'm with you, Stacey. If they can't even tell you if felting would be appropriate, I'd dump them until they come up with a more friendly structure. |
Agree. Its not much to ask is it?
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Stacey
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I don't mind filling in the forms if they'll establish that they're actually looking for crafts workshops - for all I know they could be looking for building projects or admin projects. They won't even answer the query - you have to apply first.
I used the term selling your soul to inspire discussion really (drama queen? Moi?) However, the crafts/arts business workshops I've been to and the few projects I'm involved in are choikka with people who know how to play the game but whose work is tedious, stale and very art for arts sake. On the other side of the room are people whose work is stunning but can't speak artspeak or write a risk assessment or 'artists statement' or talk about their 'motivation and who end up giving up because the funding/support is being mopped up by the eople who know how to fill in the forms. For an eco project to be so up it's own arse annoys me for some reason - though I s'pose there's no reason why an eco project should be exempt from bureaucracy 
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woodsprite
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Yes but if its a case of an emailed file with a link to my website, its an easy enough thing to do and costs nothing if I'm online anyway.
As a freelancer you have to apply for many more 'jobs' than you actually get surely?
Speculate to accumulate as the saying goes!
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Stacey
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| woodsprite wrote: | Yes but if its a case of an emailed file with a link to my website, its an easy enough thing to do and costs nothing if I'm online anyway.
As a freelancer you have to apply for many more 'jobs' than you actually get surely?
Speculate to accumulate as the saying goes! |
A CRB check costs about £40
An emailed file with a link to your website? This is a 4 page form to be filled in by referees and with an attached risk assessment.
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woodsprite
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| Quote: | | On the other side of the room are people whose work is stunning but can't speak artspeak or write a risk assessment or 'artists statement' or talk about their 'motivation and who end up giving up |
Yes indeed I too know some very talented actors, far more talented than moi, but they can't teach for toffee. I'd put it to you that if these artists can't learn how to promote themselves or 'talk the talk' they may not be suitable for the work anyway and should stick with what they do best, making and selling.
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RichardW
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| Stacey wrote: | | On the other side of the room are people whose work is stunning but can't speak artspeak or write a risk assessment or 'artists statement' or talk about their 'motivation and who end up giving up because the funding/support is being mopped up by the eople who know how to fill in the forms. For an eco project to be so up it's own arse annoys me for some reason - though I s'pose there's no reason why an eco project should be exempt from bureaucracy |
Thats the sad thing. It would be better if they offered to help the people that cant do the paperwork crap not put them off.
Todays world is more about documenting that you have / are / could do some thing not actualy being ABLE to DO it.
Justme
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Stacey
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| woodsprite wrote: | | Quote: | | On the other side of the room are people whose work is stunning but can't speak artspeak or write a risk assessment or 'artists statement' or talk about their 'motivation and who end up giving up |
Yes indeed I too know some very talented actors, far more talented than moi, but they can't teach for toffee. I'd put it to you that if these artists can't learn how to promote themselves or 'talk the talk' they may not be suitable for the work anyway and should stick with what they do best, making and selling. |
But they can't do the making and selling because the market is swamped by people all 'promoting' themselves in the same way. The face of the crafts movement is changing beyongd recognition - it's being dragged up the arts alleyway and this, in my opinion, is to its detriment.
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Stacey
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| Justme wrote: | | Stacey wrote: | | On the other side of the room are people whose work is stunning but can't speak artspeak or write a risk assessment or 'artists statement' or talk about their 'motivation and who end up giving up because the funding/support is being mopped up by the eople who know how to fill in the forms. For an eco project to be so up it's own arse annoys me for some reason - though I s'pose there's no reason why an eco project should be exempt from bureaucracy |
Thats the sad thing. It would be better if they offered to help the people that cant do the paperwork crap not put them off.
Todays world is more about documenting that you have / are / could do some thing not actualy being ABLE to DO it.
Justme |
Exactly.
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woodsprite
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I have an enhanced CRB that I apply for as a freelance artist, I renew it every three years, if a project wants a specific CRB, they pay (even if indirectly via my fee). My referees are whomever employed me last, I get permission to use them as referees for up to 12 months after they have employed me when I sign finish the project. I've never had anyone say no yet
It is unusual for someone not to accept electronic data, especially considering they are an eco project?!!!
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Stacey
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So you seem to be saying you find it acceptable that they won't let anyone know what type of workshops they're planning on doing without referees, a risk assesment and a CRB check?
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Nick
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At the risk of being a PITA, Yes, she is. You don't. Me neither, but them's the breaks. Don't go starting an argument about it. 
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Stacey
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Eh?
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MarkS
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Is this a government funded project by any chance?
Sounds to me as if the person you deal with simply didn't know the answer so put you on to the application process.
Is this another of those pointless visionary things where nobody running it has a clue and the people in the office are there only to collect the £5.88/hour.
How are your existing marketing things going Stacey? What are you up to these days?
(as an aside, I see you've changed your sig but what is the value of the soul of a 'Thief, Anarchist and all round bad-egg'? )
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Stacey
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 That sounds about right
I'm not up to much really. Last year kicked the bejaysus out of a lot of people doing similar stuff to me. Things have kind of ground to a halt as I can't afford any more materials and people didn't seem to want to buy it anyway. And Bovey Tracey turned me down - says it all really  I'm applying for one show this year which is going to cost £200. Things might take a better turn, I might get some energy and be able to make some more stuff but tbh I haven't physically recovered from last year yet. Playing the bureaucracy game exhausts me, the sheep are dieing at a rate of knots, the rent's gone up, feed's gone up, electricity's gone up...... income hasn't gone up though
This thread hasn't really devbeloped that way I meant it to - I'm asking whether people do things they don't agree with to make a living and if so how far do they go?
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Nick
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Yeah, make ends meet. You can't eat principles. Not all principles are sacrificable.
If it's government funded, can you use the FOI act to demand to see their brief, and work from there? Should be no more than an email.
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thos
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There's an interesting article in this month's Accountancy magazine on grants.
There are loads of grants available that small companies have been applying for that require audit certificates. Where the old Regional Development Grants were not difficult to certify, these require detailed certification, causing a lot of work to enable the accountants to use the specified phrases. The accountant's liability for misstatement is so high they need to do a lot of work, so the costs take up most of the grant money and in some cases the cost of compliance can even exceed the grant money.
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Stacey
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I think what upsets me the most is that the Arts used to be a sanctuary for people like me, now you have to be an administrator just to make some bleedin' felt.
It was the same with my degere - I could do the assigments with my eyes shut (and get distinctions) but ask me 'how' I did it, ask me to 'measure' it and I can't tell you.
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sally_in_wales
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CRB certificates are a tricky area as technically the person employing you should be getting a fresh one done one each time they em[loy someone new, they only cover what is on record about you at the date of application, so 'officially' they are worthless if transferred later. However, many organisations use them as a way of demonstrating that the prospective employee is willing to be checked and want to see them even if they were done for another organisation. The rules are changing soon and its going to involve a completely different set of paperwork. I havent got my head round it yet but I think in the long run it will be simpler.
It does seem normal to be asked for risk assessments, copy of your child protection policy, insurance cover and so forth, so that isnt at all unusual, and usually once you have that package of bumpf ready you just re-use it every time someone wants to see it, but I agree it seems very odd that they don't have any guidance on what sort of workshops they are looking for
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jema
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My main business means inherently aiding people whose views I dislike a lot in making their material available. I can and do draw some lines, and I support freedom of speech, but even so it is a moral compromise.
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mochyn
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I'd really like to be able to feed all my animals on organic feed but it's just too expensive. I use a feed that only comes from Staffordshire, but it contains soya which I'd rather not use. Until I have more land (if only!) and can grow all our own feed or somehow find a lot of money I won't be able to convert.
As it is I do the best I can.
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gil
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| Stacey wrote: | | I'm asking whether people do things they don't agree with to make a living and if so how far do they go? |
This is related (though not directly) :
The wine I make ticks a lot of boxes (such as made from locally and seasonally wildharvested/homegrown produce all picked by me; conforms to organic principles but not certified; traceability; sustainable; recycling; handmade craft product; no added sulphites; no colourants; unfined/unfiltered; suitable for veggies and vegans; etc etc).
However, it is a lot of work. Would be good to streamline the operation a bit.
I was on a food marketing course.
Course providers suggested looking at what my main USPs were for the markets I was in, and concentrate on those.
e.g
If people were not that fussed that I had picked or grown it all myself, as long as it was local, I could buy in from other local fruit-growers with organic principles
If people were not fussed about organic but did want local/traceable, I could buy from non-organic local growers as well (grow less myself and free up time to make and market more wine)
If the market was less fussed about where fruit came from [not so local], and more concerned about the way it was made and who by, I could buy fruit wholesale from growers anywhere in Scotland
All these three are things I thought I would not do when I started the business. I haven't done them yet. But they are thoughts to bear in mind.
I have already decided not to go down the route of organic certification because of cost and bureaucracy, and it does not seem to matter to my current customers, who are more interested in local and traceable, and to some extent, how it is made.
I wasn't going to make sweeter wines (because country wines are often too sweet for my taste). But people like them, so I was quite glad when one of the 2006 wines turned out more like a dessert wine, and I will be deliberately doing some sweeter wines in future.
There's a potential sales outlet I wasn't keen on using. But I will, because they might be an outlet for wines that might take longer to sell elsewhere.
These are changes to my original vision of the business.
To some extent, I see them as compromising that. But I want to stay afloat.
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SarahB
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Coming in late to this....
What gets me with the original situation is that a nice friendly reply could easily have been along the lines of:
| Quote: | Yes felting is something we might be looking at - but bear in mind that our application process does involve some paperwork due to (brief/govt funding/H&S or whatever) and you will need to have a current XX level CRB check for working with members of the public adn probably children.
Attached are the forms for applying if you're still interested etc. |
A bit of friendliness costs them nothing and could well lead to a profitable workshop for them.
Further along in the more general discussion - running any business is about compromise to some extent. We have to keep accounts and be accountable on so many levels and we need to make a living at it - whatever it is that we do. So some compromise is essential and how far you are prepared to "sell your soul" is up to you.
(thinking about Anita Roddick and L'Oreal a bit here)
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Nick
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Rofl. Roddick never had any soul. Good marketing, but no soul.
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Stacey
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I've had a very pleasant reply
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hello Stacey,
Thanks for your message, which I do realise is very thoughtful and well meant. I can see where you are coming from and maybe there will be the opportunity for my group to consider a revised proceedure.
Thank you for your feedback.
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I don't feel quite so bad now 
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mochyn
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Excellent news, Stacey! Looks like you've highlighted a problem for them, and you might get some work out of it. Perhaps they should take you on as an administrator...
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MarkS
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so. Who wants to own up to being involved in the project then?
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woodsprite
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Lovely reply.
Lets hope someone points out that an eco project shouldn't rely so much on paper! In the same circs I'd have emailed everything as I usually do and then taken it from there.
So are you going for it Stacey?
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Stacey
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| woodsprite wrote: | Lovely reply.
Lets hope someone points out that an eco project shouldn't rely so much on paper! In the same circs I'd have emailed everything as I usually do and then taken it from there.
So are you going for it Stacey? |
I might, just for the giggles
I can't see them touching me with a barge pole now
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sally_in_wales
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| Stacey wrote: | | woodsprite wrote: | Lovely reply.
Lets hope someone points out that an eco project shouldn't rely so much on paper! In the same circs I'd have emailed everything as I usually do and then taken it from there.
So are you going for it Stacey? |
I might, just for the giggles
I can't see them touching me with a barge pole now |
oh I disagree, you've shown you are willing to argue for a different approach, that might be just what they want
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toggle
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| Stacey wrote: | | woodsprite wrote: | Lovely reply.
Lets hope someone points out that an eco project shouldn't rely so much on paper! In the same circs I'd have emailed everything as I usually do and then taken it from there.
So are you going for it Stacey? |
I might, just for the giggles
I can't see them touching me with a barge pole now |
assuming the person who receives your application has actually seen the email
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woodsprite
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I'd go for it too! Sounds like you're just the sort of person they need to get them organised.
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