Nanny
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KOHor potassium hydroxide
i am looking at doing some buckskin
the book is american and calls for wood ash (a tad inconvenient) or potassium hydroxide -lye the americans call it- can be used for soapmaking
is this something i can get this side?
it isn't alum presumably and it isn't caustic soda which is what i use for soap making
i have a feeling that if i go to a chemist they are going to look at me suspiciously if i ask for potassium hydroxide and suspect me of making explosives aren't they?
want to get on with it
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sally_in_wales
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You can get it from soapmaking suppliers, its used as the lye source for making soft soap
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Grimnir
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Ooh, which book is it? I've just got one called Deerskins into Buckskins which is great. I want to do this myself when I get the time, space & skins 
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vegplot
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You could possibly use caustic soda as it's potassium hydroxide but it might be too strong. Lime water may also work but I would suggest you don't experiment on your best hides. Alkaline solutions will loosen or remove hair.
You can use brains as well "Every animal has just enough brains to preserve its own hide, dead or alive."
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TAVASCAROW
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| vegplot wrote: | You could possibly use caustic soda as it's potassium hydroxide but it might be too strong. Lime water may also work but I would suggest you don't experiment on your best hides. Alkaline solutions will loosen or remove hair.
You can use brains as well "Every animal has just enough brains to preserve its own hide, dead or alive." |
Caustic soda is sodium hydroxide & you used to be able to buy it from hardware stores for unblocking drains but I suspect H&S have put a stop to that as its seriously caustic.
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Grimnir
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Brains can be used to dress the hide as can eggs and soap & oil but they are used after the 'bucking', which is where the hide is soaked in the lye/lime/ash solution. Bucking helps remove the hair and grain layer.
(says he who's never done it  but I did only finish reading the book last night!)
My book mentions using hydrated lime for the bucking solution as one of the options. This was said to be good for beginners as you can't make it too strong. The correct strength is reached when the water is saturated with lime so that some settles out and will not mix in. (Book is Deerskins to Buckskins my Matt Richards)
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vegplot
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| TAVASCAROW wrote: | | Caustic soda is sodium hydroxide |
My mistake thinking of one wrote the other.
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vegplot
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| Grimnir wrote: | | My book mentions using hydrated lime for the bucking solution as one of the options. |
This is a good, cheap method. Hydrated lime costs about £7 a bag from a builder merchant - cheaper if you have an account. Two bags are enough to fill a dustbin (I know as I have one maturing).
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Grimnir
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Oh, the book says you cn use sodium hydroxide and if that's caustic soda then Wilkinsons sell it
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vegplot
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| Grimnir wrote: | | Oh, the book says you cn use sodium hydroxide and if that's caustic soda then Wilkinsons sell it |
You should be able to use any caustic solution just be wary of it's strength. Sodiuma and pot. hydroxide, lime water, saltpetre (potassium nitrate) chile saltpetre (sodium nitrate) should all work.
My dad used paraffin on some sheeps skins once. It worked but getting rid of the smell took some time.
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cab
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| Grimnir wrote: | | Oh, the book says you cn use sodium hydroxide and if that's caustic soda then Wilkinsons sell it |
Yep. Caustic soda is sodium hydroxide.
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mochyn
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I thought KOH stood for Knock On Head. 
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Nanny
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crikey, so many answers
i have caustic soda and was wondering if i could use that although that is sodium hydroxide and not potassium hydroxide - hence the question and confusion as often americanisms are different
it is the deerskins into buckskins book by the way....
so if i use the caustic soda, thenwould i need the salt and i am guessing that i would use the same amount of caustic soda as i would KOH
but.....how would i dispose of the leftovers safely
could it go down the septic tank directly rather than down the loo?
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vegplot
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| Nanny wrote: |
could it go down the septic tank directly rather than down the loo? |
In general, caustics and non-metallic are relatively harmless unless in concentration and they soon break down. They are not poisoness as such. If you flush plenty of water down with them then it shouldn't be a problem.
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Nanny
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| vegplot wrote: | | Nanny wrote: |
could it go down the septic tank directly rather than down the loo? |
In general, caustics and non-metallic are relatively harmless unless in concentration and they soon break down. They are not poisoness as such. If you flush plenty of water down with them then it shouldn't be a problem. |
even better then
so after i do this one with the salt and alum to keep the hair on one side, i could forget the salt, use perhaps 4 oz caustic to whatever the equivalent uk is to 10 american gallons and then go for it with another skin
as i have my own chickens i shall use eggs as a dressing and then somewhere i shall have to get a pumice stone or something similar to rub....do they still sell pumice stones in boots do you suppose? thinking about it i am away to the chemist in llandeilo tomorrow so will ask if they have some
rinsing is not problem as i have the river at the bottom of the garden, and i also have vinegar to counteract the caustic soda ....for stretching i suppose i can use some of that nearly a mile of bailer twine that we accumulated from the 333 bales...i have made my frame so i will also use twine to tie the skin on the frame and now we have a dehumidifier i won't worry so much about how the hell i am going to dry it in the welsh climate......
ah........still have to consider smoking but perhaps it isn't compulsory
the isbn number for that book is 0-9658672-4-2 if anybody else is interested...got it from amazon
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vegplot
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Be wary of dumping straight into the river. It's not something I'd do without taking advice first. By flushing away I mean into the main drain rather than directly into a river (for which you probably need a licence). It would be better if you simply rinsed away into a soakaway or directly into the soil and this will provide effective treatment before it gets into a water course.
Do a bit of research before using caustic to get the concentrations right.
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Nanny
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| vegplot wrote: | Be wary of dumping straight into the river. It's not something I'd do without taking advice first. By flushing away I mean into the main drain rather than directly into a river (for which you probably need a licence). It would be better if you simply rinsed away into a soakaway or directly into the soil and this will provide effective treatment before it gets into a water course.
Do a bit of research before using caustic to get the concentrations right. |
i didn't mean tipping the solution into the river, that wouldn't be right...i might rinse the skin in the river as it is running water, this is what the book suggests by the way
as to concentration i have no idea even where to look so i was again going on the concentration of the KOH which was 4 oz to 10 gallons american which equates to 8.33 uk gallons
my conatiner only holds 28 liters or 6.16 uk gallons so i would use...3 oz caustic in there
should be about right...............
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dpack
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has anyone said eye protection
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Nanny
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| dpack wrote: | | has anyone said eye protection |
rubber gloves
your go
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cab
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| Nanny wrote: |
so if i use the caustic soda, thenwould i need the salt and i am guessing that i would use the same amount of caustic soda as i would KOH |
Not necessarily! How much potassium hydroxide does the recipe call for, in how much water (and other stuff)?
| Quote: |
but.....how would i dispose of the leftovers safely
could it go down the septic tank directly rather than down the loo? |
I'd be happy to put it down the drain (with plenty of water) but very nervous to drain it to septic tank. I've used waste lye as weedkiller before, does take some time for a patch to recover... Got any bindweed you want killing?
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Nanny
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| cab wrote: | | Nanny wrote: |
so if i use the caustic soda, thenwould i need the salt and i am guessing that i would use the same amount of caustic soda as i would KOH |
Not necessarily! How much potassium hydroxide does the recipe call for, in how much water (and other stuff)?
| Quote: |
but.....how would i dispose of the leftovers safely
could it go down the septic tank directly rather than down the loo? |
I'd be happy to put it down the drain (with plenty of water) but very nervous to drain it to septic tank. I've used waste lye as weedkiller before, does take some time for a patch to recover... Got any bindweed you want killing? |
the book calls for 4 oz to 8.33 uk gallons
now you have me worried.....i don't need any weedkiller......
all my drains go to the septic tank...........not on mains drainage
this is wales you know........we've only just got the 'lectric up here and if you run the shower the lights go dim
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cab
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| Nanny wrote: |
even better then
so after i do this one with the salt and alum to keep the hair on one side, i could forget the salt, use perhaps 4 oz caustic to whatever the equivalent uk is to 10 american gallons and then go for it with another skin |
Okay... And the instructions are for potassium hydroxide?
Doing a little mental arithmetic... 1 mole of NaOH is 40g, and 1 mole of KOH is 56g. So Potassium hydroxide is near as dammit half as heavy again, and if memory serves its generaly wetter, so when converting from one to the other to keep the same 'strength' I'd use two thirds of the amount of sodium hydroxide as of potassium. So two thirds of 4oz would be two and two thirds ounces (just shy of 3oz).
(cut)
| Quote: | | rinsing is not problem as i have the river at the bottom of the garden, and i also have vinegar to counteract the caustic soda .... |
Vinegar should work... IF you want to be really clever, add juice from a red cabbage. It'll be blue until you've added enough acid to counter the lye, then it'll turn red. And as vinegar (or acetic acid) is a 'weak' acid (I wouldn't slosh neat acidic acid around, all the same, its 'weak' relative to 'strong' acids!) your mix should turn red when it is safe to pour away.
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TAVASCAROW
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Word of warning!!
Always add the caustic to the water not the other way round.
Small amounts of water on caustic soda creates a very strong & sometimes violently reacting corosive that may spit.
Adding crystals slowly to volume of water is much safer but I'd still wear goggles.
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Nanny
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| cab wrote: | | Nanny wrote: |
even better then
so after i do this one with the salt and alum to keep the hair on one side, i could forget the salt, use perhaps 4 oz caustic to whatever the equivalent uk is to 10 american gallons and then go for it with another skin |
Okay... And the instructions are for potassium hydroxide?
Doing a little mental arithmetic... 1 mole of NaOH is 40g, and 1 mole of KOH is 56g. So Potassium hydroxide is near as dammit half as heavy again, and if memory serves its generaly wetter, so when converting from one to the other to keep the same 'strength' I'd use two thirds of the amount of sodium hydroxide as of potassium. So two thirds of 4oz would be two and two thirds ounces (just shy of 3oz).
(cut)
| Quote: | | rinsing is not problem as i have the river at the bottom of the garden, and i also have vinegar to counteract the caustic soda .... |
Vinegar should work... IF you want to be really clever, add juice from a red cabbage. It'll be blue until you've added enough acid to counter the lye, then it'll turn red. And as vinegar (or acetic acid) is a 'weak' acid (I wouldn't slosh neat acidic acid around, all the same, its 'weak' relative to 'strong' acids!) your mix should turn red when it is safe to pour away. |
ok
so for a max of 6 uk gallons you would use .....oh go on, you are a chemist, you will be able to tell me how much for 6 uk gallons and save my brain cells - how about an oz and a half?
i can use vinegar for rinsing, it says 1 pint (16oz) to 3 american gallons and leave it overnight so that is not a problem
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cab
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| Nanny wrote: |
the book calls for 4 oz to 8.33 uk gallons
now you have me worried.....i don't need any weedkiller......
all my drains go to the septic tank...........not on mains drainage
this is wales you know........we've only just got the 'lectric up here and if you run the shower the lights go dim |
A little mental arithmetic...
3oz (lets assume) of sodium hydroxide is about 85g.
Sodium hydroxide has a molar mass of 40g.
So thats 2.125 moles.
Acetic acid has a molar mass of, 60g
60 times 2.125 is near as dammit 130g.
So to fully neutralise that much sodium hydroxide you need that much acetic acid... Vinegar is only about 5% acid, so you need about 20 times 130g, so over two and a half litres of vinegar. Ish.
But don't fret that much, I've got very little experience curing skins and suchlike, but I should think (although I don't know) that the curing process does for some of the alkali.
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Nanny
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not fretting but don't want to kill myself or anybody else
so how much caustic soda in 6 uk gallons then?
then i will have the whole thing in my mind at last
head now spinning and i remember why i failed chemistry
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vegplot
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Of course, if you wanted an alkaline soil then....
Just under 3oz
Edit: for 8.33 gallons
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Nanny
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| vegplot wrote: | | Of course, if you wanted an alkaline soil then.... |
please don't take me down that path while i am struggling with the other one
one step at a time for an old lady if you don't mind........... 
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vegplot
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| Nanny wrote: | | vegplot wrote: | | Of course, if you wanted an alkaline soil then.... |
please don't take me down that path while i am struggling with the other one
one step at a time for an old lady if you don't mind........... |
You don't need to neutralise if you not putting vast quantities down the drain or very strong solutions. The levels used for curing aren't that strong and you can safely flush those away with water. However, if you're wasting directly into a river then you'd have to neutralise, which you're not.
If Cab's calculations are correct, and I have no reason to doubt them, then add 3oz of caustic soda to 8.33 gallons of water (wearing safety glasses) and you'll have your solution. When finished flush it away with of water.
So for 6 gallons you'll need 3 x 6/8.33 ounces
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drunk_nik
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| vegplot wrote: | | Nanny wrote: | | vegplot wrote: | | Of course, if you wanted an alkaline soil then.... |
please don't take me down that path while i am struggling with the other one
one step at a time for an old lady if you don't mind........... |
You don't need to neutralise if you not putting vast quantities down the drain or very strong solutions. The levels used for curing aren't that strong and you can safely flush those away with water. However, if you're wasting directly into a river then you'd have to neutralise, which you're not.
If Cab's calculations are correct, and I have no reason to doubt them, then add 3oz of caustic soda to 8.33 gallons of water (wearing safety glasses) and you'll have your solution. When finished flush it away with of water.
So for 6 gallons you'll need 3 x 6/8.33 ounces |
Sort of agree with Vegplot here, at 2.125 moles per 8.33gallons (trusting Cab's calcs here - they look fairly accurate though) you're only at about a 0.06M solution - you could quite easily allow the hide to drip dry, then leave to wash out in the river without doing any ecological damage. (So I agree with the no need to neutralise - but not the not washing out in the river.)
That said I was a physical chemist - the most dangerous chemicals I ever got to play with were water and sand (god knows how I got a thesis about solar energy and Hydrogen fuels out of them!) - so I'm probably not an expert in what will or will not damage an ecosystem.
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cab
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| drunk_nik wrote: |
Sort of agree with Vegplot here, at 2.125 moles per 8.33gallons (trusting Cab's calcs here - they look fairly accurate though) |
They may SEEM accurate, but they were all done in the head, and by an innumerate biologist so take 'em with a pinch of NaCl.
| Quote: | you're only at about a 0.06M solution - you could quite easily allow the hide to drip dry, then leave to wash out in the river without doing any ecological damage. (So I agree with the no need to neutralise - but not the not washing out in the river.)
That said I was a physical chemist - the most dangerous chemicals I ever got to play with were water and sand (god knows how I got a thesis about solar energy and Hydrogen fuels out of them!) - so I'm probably not an expert in what will or will not damage an ecosystem. |
60mM NaOH (I didn't do that sum, but sounds about right) will still leave your fingers feeling all soapy. I'd not worry overly about pouring a wee bit in a well flowing river, but I'll wager that it would be illegal to do so.
Why is there never an environmental chemist around when you need one?
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