cab
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Laying paving slabs to take weightGot a water butt for out front. Big one too.
I don't have a hard surface to put it on, currently soil and wood chippings. So, I'll need to dig a hole.
Planning on the (fairly traditional) firming down, three inches of hardcore nicely filled in with little bits, two inches of sand (levelled off), dollops of mortar and paving slabs on top.
Will that be enough to take the weight?
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Jb
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How big is big? I have a couple of 250 litre water butts and they just stand on three brieze blocks which are direct onto the soil.
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cab
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| JB wrote: | | How big is big? I have a couple of 250 litre water butts and they just stand on three brieze blocks which are direct onto the soil. |
250 litre. The breeze blocks don't tend to sink into the soil, thus ruining the level of the pipe coming from the guttering?
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Behemoth
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Stamped down the ground. Inch of sand. Paving slab. breeze block pedestal. 220litre hasn't moved.
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Jonnyboy
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Re: Laying paving slabs to take weight | cab wrote: | Got a water butt for out front. Big one too.
I don't have a hard surface to put it on, currently soil and wood chippings. So, I'll need to dig a hole.
Planning on the (fairly traditional) firming down, three inches of hardcore nicely filled in with little bits, two inches of sand (levelled off), dollops of mortar and paving slabs on top.
Will that be enough to take the weight? |
Yes, sounds a little like overkill mind.
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cab
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Hmmm... I'm just a bit cautious about the whole stamped down and breeze block thing. I'm seeing that sinking and settling down rather. I dunno, maybe I'm being too cautious.
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Jb
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| cab wrote: | | JB wrote: | | How big is big? I have a couple of 250 litre water butts and they just stand on three brieze blocks which are direct onto the soil. |
250 litre. The breeze blocks don't tend to sink into the soil, thus ruining the level of the pipe coming from the guttering? |
Very little movement, some obviously but there is enough flexibility in the down pipe to allow for that. I suspect you'd only have a problem if you try to support the weight of the butt on a few small points. The area of a brieze block, even on it's side as I use it, is enough to spread the weight and avoid that.
My waterbutts are connected to the greenhouse and shed roofs so ensuring I had that flexibility was easy enough but if I was connecting it to a rigid downpipe from a building then a connector kit should have a flexible hose which would allow for a little bit of flexibility. Just connect it to the butt a few centimeters below the lip and then you'll have enough margin to allow the butts to move slightly but unless your ground is very soft I wouldn't expect too much problem.
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Behemoth
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The stands they come with are the smae diameter as the butt itself and stand easily on compacted ground. I'd say a paving slab will spread the load suffiently.
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mochyn
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Just PLEASE don't forget to make sure the tap is high enough to get your watering can underneath...
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dougal
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| mochyn wrote: | | Just PLEASE don't forget to make sure the tap is high enough to get your watering can underneath... |
And that the higher the water butt, the easier it is to get flow from it to wherever around the garden!
250 litres, 250kg, the weight of three people... three inches hardcore + sand + slab sounds OTT to me... The main worry is that the thing might sink differentially, and tip over.
"ruining the level of the pipe from the guttering"? I think a flex connection to the side of the butt, or a rigid pipe going straight down into it (but not so it pins the thing in place!) are the usual options. With the flex, it can take whatever route as long as the discharge is lower than the feed...
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MarkS
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Re: Laying paving slabs to take weightDon't believe him!
This is obviously the final phase of dealing with the council workmen. once that butt is in place the bodies are safe forever.
/evil cackle
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Behemoth
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And we're all accessories to the crime! 
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James
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Just done a stupid calculation-
If your water but holds 250 litres of water, and I assumed it would probably be around half a metre wide, the amount of downward pressure per centremetre square is 127 grams
I'm 83 kg and my shoes are roughly 24 cm long by 10 cm wide. The amount of presure I exhurt is 173 grams per cm2.
So your water but will weigh less per centremetre than an adult male
And I may be a little heavier than I should be, but I dont need rei-inforced foundations (yet..)
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cab
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| mochyn wrote: | | Just PLEASE don't forget to make sure the tap is high enough to get your watering can underneath... |
It has a good sized stand for that 
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cab
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| dougal wrote: |
And that the higher the water butt, the easier it is to get flow from it to wherever around the garden!
250 litres, 250kg, the weight of three people... three inches hardcore + sand + slab sounds OTT to me... The main worry is that the thing might sink differentially, and tip over. |
Indeed, that it might sink down a nextra few inches, evenly or unevenly, and thus cause problems. Hence thinking about laying some paving slabs down hard.
And while the weight of three people for a day or two isn't going to cause much of a problem, what about that weight all winter?
| Quote: |
"ruining the level of the pipe from the guttering"? I think a flex connection to the side of the butt, or a rigid pipe going straight down into it (but not so it pins the thing in place!) are the usual options. With the flex, it can take whatever route as long as the discharge is lower than the feed... |
Its the discharge being lower than the feed without being TOO low thats an issue. I've seen a water butt installed somewhere where the butt sank rather too far, so rather than excess water filling the tube and going back down the drainpipe it just kept spilling out over the top of the waterbutt. Depending on the model of waterbutt it doesn't take much for that to happen (the reccomended installation for the smaller one we've got in the back garden would end up spilling water all down the sides when its full every time it rains were it to sink down by about an inch).
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cab
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| James wrote: | Just done a stupid calculation-
If your water but holds 250 litres of water, and I assumed it would probably be around half a metre wide, the amount of downward pressure per centremetre square is 127 grams
I'm 83 kg and my shoes are roughly 24 cm long by 10 cm wide. The amount of presure I exhurt is 173 grams per cm2.
So your water but will weigh less per centremetre than an adult male
And I may be a little heavier than I should be, but I dont need rei-inforced foundations (yet..) |
If you stood on dirt all winter, then your 173g cm2 might be enough to cause you to sink, but then again I'm probably overestimating the risk of that
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dougal
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| cab wrote: | | ... rather than excess water filling the tube and going back down the drainpipe it just kept spilling out over the top of the waterbutt. Depending on the model of waterbutt it doesn't take much for that to happen (the reccomended installation for the smaller one we've got in the back garden would end up spilling water all down the sides when its full every time it rains were it to sink down by about an inch). |
The simple thing, surely, is to add an overflow pipe - so that you can direct the excess wherever you wish. Isn't it? (genuine, non-rhetorical question)
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RichardW
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I was doing the same calcs but in PSI )pounds per square inches. You butt is less that 1 psi.
Justme
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dpack
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none of our allotment poly tubs (250 and 500 ltr) have sunk on bare ground
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sean
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| Justme wrote: | I was doing the same calcs but in PSI )pounds per square inches. You butt is less that 1 psi.
Justme |
I'm sure that Cab's butt attains more than that. He's the bloated jerusalem artichoke king of Cambridge. 
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dougal
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I'm not sure that these calculations tell the entire story - because the butt should be on a stand, and that stand may not manage to spread the pressure evenly across its base.
However, a paving slab would accept the non uniform loads and then distribute them evenly into the soil... 
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judith
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We have one of those black orange juice containers mounted on a pallet. I'm not sure what the total volume is - probably 2 cubic metres. That hasn't sunk into the ground yet.
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cab
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| dougal wrote: |
The simple thing, surely, is to add an overflow pipe - so that you can direct the excess wherever you wish. Isn't it? (genuine, non-rhetorical question) |
Simpler still not to install it such that it sinks and ends up overfilling, I'd have thought.
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cab
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| judith wrote: | | We have one of those black orange juice containers mounted on a pallet. I'm not sure what the total volume is - probably 2 cubic metres. That hasn't sunk into the ground yet. |
A pallet would really spread the weight out I'd have thought, but I don't really have room for one at the front of the house.
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cab
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| dougal wrote: | I'm not sure that these calculations tell the entire story - because the butt should be on a stand, and that stand may not manage to spread the pressure evenly across its base.
However, a paving slab would accept the non uniform loads and then distribute them evenly into the soil... |
I like that way of thinking. Might get away without such a heavy duty base then... Still, theres something about laying down some paving slabs and not doing it properly that would really, I dunno, grate...
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dougal
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Sorry, should have said "evenly and over a larger area" but I'm sure you knew what I meant!
A pallet-mounted IBC is generally 1m3. One tonne of water. However the make-up of the (ground side of)the base could be somewhat variable, one IBC to another. And as for the mechanics of different soils, well...
I don't think you need to put in massive foundations, but you are right to worry about erosion by running water.
IMHO an overflow is simpler than attempting precision garden construction! And provides you the potential of directing overflow either to the drain or to somewhere it would be useful, maybe even an eventual second container.
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Behemoth
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If it's next to the house I'm sure Gervase will be along soon to extol the benfits of French Drain, just in case.
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dougal
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Re: Laying paving slabs to take weight | cab wrote: | | Planning on the (fairly traditional) firming down, three inches of hardcore nicely filled in with little bits, two inches of sand (levelled off), dollops of mortar and paving slabs on top. |
Better make that LIME mortar, just to be on the safe side... 
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Behemoth
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But would that be correct within the historical context of Cab's house?
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dougal
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Didn't the council remove that the other day?
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cab
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| Behemoth wrote: | | But would that be correct within the historical context of Cab's house? |
Yellow ex-council three bed end terrace, solidly built with generous cupboard space in 1969? Technically speaking I believe that I should be putting in something made out of aluminium or plastic.
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James
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| cab wrote: | | ...theres something about laying down some paving slabs and not doing it properly that would really, I dunno, grate... |
It sounds like you've made your mind up about how these foundations are going to be constructed....
And to be honest, if you do it the way you're suggesting, you'll know for sure that there'll be no problems....ever. And there's a lot to be said for that.
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Behemoth
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Unless the worms shelter there during wet periods and undermine the footings.
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dpack
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its a barrel full of water not a tower block
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sean
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He should probably try to get down to bed rock to be on the safe side.
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Behemoth
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A tectonic survey may be necessary, you know, faults and everything.
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dougal
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Perhaps he was concerned about mining subsidence at an impressionably early age... ?
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MarkS
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And all of cambridge is just a big flood plain. Has he notified the nra so they can update their maps ?
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cab
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| James wrote: |
It sounds like you've made your mind up about how these foundations are going to be constructed....
And to be honest, if you do it the way you're suggesting, you'll know for sure that there'll be no problems....ever. And there's a lot to be said for that. |
I was rather hoping that someone would talk me out of it actually
I'm still going to go for hardcore or gravel, followed by sand and mortar, but I'm not going to max out the thickness like I was. So I'm glad I asked, its no fun at all cycling with all that stuff, the less I need the better!
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Gervase
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How about one paving slab and one 25 kilo bag of sharp sand? I've had that weight on a bike before with no problems - and it will certainly be more than up to the task of supporting your water butt.
Your initial proposal is just a teeny bit over-engineered! Unless, of course, you're preparing heavy water - in which case look out for the Tomahawk missiles.
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cab
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| dougal wrote: | | Perhaps he was concerned about mining subsidence at an impressionably early age... ? |
Where I grew up, streets all leaned at different angles 'cos of that.
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cab
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| Gervase wrote: | How about one paving slab and one 25 kilo bag of sharp sand? I've had that weight on a bike before with no problems - and it will certainly be more than up to the task of supporting your water butt.
Your initial proposal is just a teeny bit over-engineered! Unless, of course, you're preparing heavy water - in which case look out for the Tomahawk missiles. |
Yeah, I can manage that much sand the couple of miles from the builders yard I think. And I think I can get some hardcore for it too. And heavy water, disappointingly, isn't.
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