| Archive for Downsizer For an ethical approach to consumption |
| Woodburner |
Line breeding/ selective breeding QI have a fair idea of how to select which hens to breed from, to develop a line for (slightly) faster growing cockerels. I would have to monitor the development of the offspring, but to do the same to choose which cockerels to breed from, would involve having a lot of cockerels around for over a year. I realise this only needs to be done every three generations, but could I avoid it altogether, and just pick one that was itself a good developer?How much of an issue is fertility, and what other issues might arise from being 'lax' in selection? |
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| Chez |
This is definitely a Castle Farm question! I guess that hatchability would start to become an issue at some point ... | ||||
| Castle Farm |
What a totally brilliant question to ask 
What breed are you working with Woodburner? |
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| Bebo |
She keeps Light Sussex | ||||
| GSHP |
I would also be very interested in any advice. I'm looking into starting a breeding programme for meat birds at the end of this year, the start of next and am trying to soak up as much information as I can so I start off on the right foot. | ||||
| Woodburner |
Alas my LS breeding program is now on hold. Foxy has just called and taken my new silkie hen and five of her chicks, so I need to breed some more silkies first, otherwise I won't have enough broodies. (Unless I get extremely lucky and all three chicks are hens!)
Edit: Neighbours just called round with the hen!   She's lost a lot of feathers from her tail and has a bloody ear, but looks like she'll be ok.
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| Woodburner |
Found this on Kintaline's site:
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| Nat S |
don't forget shape though - most people just breed 'big'. it's all bone and takes age to get there - brahmas, orpingtons etc. In ixworths the emphasis is on fine bones and a broad breast to give you the maximum amount of meat. That's what makes the old english games so good, the shape rather than the size. | ||||
| Nat S |
PS: do your sussex not go broody? it's hard to keep mum's sussex OFF eggs! or are you trying to keep them in lay? which is sensible. One thing which gives ixworths the edge for me - non sitting in general. | ||||
| Woodburner |
I haven't forgotten just wasn't sure how to phrase it  There's not much point having a decent shape if it takes 18 months to get there though, which seems to be the case with mine, even though they developed faster than the hens when they were chicks. 
I only have three hens, they're in their first season, and there's a cockerel to turf them out if they don't reappear of their own free will, so I don't think they have a chance
I know I originally got LS because they would (allegedly) brood, but why give up decent sized eggs when you can have adorable silkies to do the brooding instead! I might have to resort to buckets of cold water next year though. Who knows?
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| Nat S |
you won't hatch many eggs in a bucket of cold water 
picked out some good quotes from a book you MUST get! Jim worthington's 'natural poultry keeping' "In a general purpose breed such as mine table properties are equally important. The most important is a relative shortness of leg. This is normally accompanied by width between the thighs. Such a bird has usually a wide well-fleshed breast. If the breastbone at the fore-end bends into the wishbone without a pronounced angle, so much the better. Such conformation, in male birds particularly, is by no means common." on game from alfred gibson: "As a table fowl it has few equals...long strong legs, an immense broad back, great chest, a dauntless head on a long noble neck makes the game bird the ideal fighter...the (sport of cock fighting) has died out but the handsome bird remains...to make a dish fit for a king. Not only do they surpass all other birds for flavour, but they carry more flesh in proportion to bone than any other breed....They grow fast and do not require to be fattened. On a free range they find most of their own food and show magnificent plumage without artificial treatment." I think the key for me is (well, trying to anyway) breeding big numbers and culling ruthlessly. First off, I don't hatch any old egg; I only pick the best from them - any too round, too narrow, misshaped, over or undersized get left out. If you have a hen routinely laying weird eggs this won't be carried on in the rest of the flock by doing this. It also improves the odds of hatching if the egg is the right shape and size. The priority then is picking off any sickly ones - after hatching the worst tend to do the job for you, then as they grow watch for any that aren't thriving, aren't growing so well and kill them. Don't help any to hatch, there's obviously something wrong with them. Don't waste the feed. You should now have a good healthy group and can look for the finer details such as shape. Now I'm getting to the next stage that allows me to select for longevity - of my older hens it looks like so far only one is making the grade to stay on - she will be very valuable because she has it all: health, laying ability and longevity. This is the hen I was looking for and there's no shortcut in getting to this point. |
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| Castle Farm |
Firstly forget pure bred breeds, as they never did and never will make big table birds.
There were different sizes of cockerels bred for table use which started off as 1lb birds called petit poussins (still very popular in France). The next weight up was 'Asparagus chicken' bred and marketed around June- July and graded up to about 2 1/2 pounds. Spring Chicken went up to 3 1/2 lbs. Country Chickens up to 4 1/2 lbs. 'Surreys' were crate-fed and normally crammed up to 5 1/2lbs. Capons were castrated males up to 10lbs, but usually available around Christmas time,by then about 7-8 months old. You need a cross bred for hybrid vigour, as feeding pure breeds isn't cost effective. It can be done, but they put a framework together first,then onto the legs (dark meat) and if your lucky a bit of white meat on the breast and all this takes time.The cost of a pure bred table bird at 6lbs dressed works out around £26 depending how much feed and room to run around working the meat off you give it. I worked on table birds for years using different crosses and Indian Game has to enter the breed to make a worthwhile larger bird and thats why they came up with Ross-Cob and other factory types. I can take this further if anyone is interested and discribe my breeding system as long as no one thinks I'm trying to push my breeds and birds ..besides which I've started taking the breeding pens down for this year and have more or less stopped selling hatching eggs. |
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| GSHP |
I would love to know more about your breeding system if you wouldn't mind sharing your experience and knowledge. It would also be interesting to hear from other breeders to get differnet opinons and viewpoints. | ||||
| Chez |
Don't be daft - this is your expertise area and I'm d*mned sure that we can all learn a lot, if you're willing to share it. |
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| Nat S |
a pure breed may not make a roaster to rival the cobb, but spare cocks and end of lay hens can certainly give a *useful* carcass. That's the idea behind general purpose.
ETA - I put this because I'm only interested in dual purpose birds, IMO a bird purely for either eggs or meat is a false economy if we are trying to feed ourselves rather than relying on hendrix genetics. |
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| bodger |
Why do you think i've been trying to give away my LS cockerels ?
A useful carcasse is not something you have to pay an arm and a leg to produce. I'd much rather be feeding something thats been designed for the job. |
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| Chez |
I think that's a good point. From a general utility point of view, it is much easier to keep a single flock of birds that are reasonable for both purposes than have to keep two separate ones, one for meat, one for eggs. If that's what one is trying to do, I think that it's misleading to focus on mainly eating chicken roasted - for us, anway. We very, very rarely eat a roasted bird; but we do eat lots of things made from bits of chicken and lots of vegetables, use the stock in other things, etc. etc. It's getting the balance between growth and egg production that's the issue; and being sensible about what to expect. |
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| Chez |
I thought it was because you were a kind and generous philanthropist!
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| bodger |
No way Its because I'm being practical.
I'd rather keep two flocks that are fit for purpose, rather than one that isn't. |
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| Rob R |
Sounds like the same issue involved with shooting dairy bull calves. | ||||
| Nat S |
only problem with that system is the wastage. a hybrid lays 300 eggs a year. wonderful, but if you keep two you're getting 600 every year. maybe a large family would go through nearly 2 a day but people rarely stop at 2 hens so you'd be getting way more than you needed, but of course not being able to feed less. The offspring from hatched eggs would be useless too. For the eggy flock, what happens to surplus males? Remember that for most pure breeds you would need to feed them until they can be sexed = massive waste. If you wanted a sex linked cross it means keeping four different pure breed flocks - two to go into your sex linkers and two to create your terminal generation meaties. If you skip that all out and buy hybrids, YOU are not dealing with the wastage, but the industry IS. How do they do that? is it humane and environmentally friendly? also, we already rely on literally a handful of companies globally to supply ALL the commercial birds. They are swallowing each other at a faster and faster rate. Cobb is already 'joined with' sasso and hendrix genetics (who swallowed ISA/Hubbard). Who will eat who? My money's on hendrix genetics as they have swallowed so many already and they span most livestock species, not just poultry. So once all competition's removed for them (that's not just this country btw, that's worldwide), and pure breeds have been written off and ruined how cheap will our cheap hybrids be? what will our alternative be?
Also it's not really part of the whole self-sufficiency ideal, is it? |
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| Bebo |
I'm similar to Chez in that we rarely eat roast chicken, probably because I've always got a freezer full of pork and lamb for roast dinners. However, the OH is very fond of chicken stir-fries and home made chicken pies, as well as coq au vin, curry, casserole etc etc etc. LS or even hybrid cockerels are fine for that and as Ixy says, by the time you've fed them long enough to sex them you might as well keep feeding them until they are worth putting in the freezer.
I am, however, toying with the idea of trying to get hold of some sasso or hubbard chicks to raise and maybe keeping a cockerel and three hens to breed from to provide some roasting birds. |
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| Nat S |
Nooooo!
hubbard/sasso - money all ends up in the same place. I'm guessing they're keeping their original company names and using the term 'joined with' to create the illusion of choice in the market or get round competition/maybe tax laws? seriously though, if you do decide to do this, don't breed them to each other - their mothers were recessive dwarves. If you breed them to each other you will get a percentage of dwarves and they will all carry it. If you bred them to any pure breed however the gene will not be expressed. Be careful with what you then do with subsequent offspring though as they will all carry it and if bred to each other, some dwarves will appear. |
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| Bebo |
OK if I do it I'll maybe try a spare LS cockerel with sasso or hubbard hens and then just eat all of the offspring. | ||||
| ninat |
Ok so how does this sound?
I have 5 isa brown hens - good layers, rubbish carcasses. One always goes broody and she hatched 2 cuckoo marans for me, one of whom is male. I was planning to fatten up any hybids of these next year assuming Mrs Broody does her thing, but since the mothers are layers and not table birds ,does this mean I'm wasting my time?? or should I just go for it and see how they turn out. (I'm not looking for megamuscle- just something to give a family of 4 a meal) |
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| Tavascarow |
Sharing info is what this forum is about AFAIC.
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| Rob R |
Probably, as well as feed (see Ixy', Chez' & Bodger's comments on fit for purpose).
Depends how many of them are vegetarian?
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| Nat S |
Yeah that would be a waste of feed to be honest, spose it depends what meal you are making - might just about stretch to something like a stew. I'd stick to pure maran or if you like brown hens, why not rhode island reds? I got 8 portions out of an end-of-lay ixworth (pure) the other day - slow cooked it was tender as anything, as good as any younger roaster, and Rob pointed out that because it was slow cooked and the meat literally just fell off the bone, we made FULL use out of it, rather than having to pick little bits off a roasted carcass. |
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| colour it green |
we raised some hybrid x welsummer chicks - so not meat birds, and at 20 weeks there killed out at about 3 lbs each - to give you an idea |
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| Woodburner |
I agree with that. I don't have the space to keep more than three lines of anything, so couldn't really keep more than one breed going and keep vigour. No point trying to keep two specialist flocks going, if you can't check the new blood for problems before you integrate it imho. My LS are well past the 200 mark (now I've said that they'll go off lay!) so egg numbers are more than adequate. I can't say anything about eating quality yet, but give me (or rather, them) a few months . . .
I think me and Ixy have the exact same ideas and aims! I saw that book highly recommended once before so I went on Amazon and they had a couple at reasonable prices, but by the time I found my credit card, the only copies available were staggering prices, well over £50! I'll have to look again and jump faster
Edit: I don't think there's any point trying to get a decent meal from even a cross with a bird that was bred to be skinny! |
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| Castle Farm |
I have just returned from The Royal Welsh Show and the poultry show.
An Ixworth won champion Rare breed and it was the first time I have seen one up close and in the flesh. It's exactly the same as my Welsh Blacks even down to the comb,except it's white of course. Nice bird though but looked a bit...dare I say it.. light. |
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| bodger |
I both line breed and inbreed my chickens and the first thing that I'd say, is that to do it properly you've got to keep one hell of a number of chickens.
You need to keep meticulous records and be able to mark your birds so that there can be no mistakes over identification. I keep several lines of one family and at times breed very closely. I often breed father to daughter and mother to son. In my pens I have aunts and uncles, nephews and nieces, cousins etc. In starting your line of chickens, you need to start with the very best that you can get. The one thing with inbreeding is that if you have any shit in your original stock, it will certainly bring it to the surface. Its the one way of really getting to know what you have in your stock. You'll make mistakes in your breeding programme and the records that you keep will show you where you made the mistakes. You must be prepared to kill off these mistakes and the birds that produced them. By keeping the birds in the manner that i have suggested you will always have a fall back plan in the form of birds that you've kept from other lines of the same familly. I know of poultry keepers who have kept strains of birds without putting fresh outside blood into them for 20 or 30 years. By keeping records and by using a careful breeding plan, they've been able to keep their birds fresh and vigerous inspite of the continual inbreeding. Fresh blood can be a disaster to a line of chickens. A bird may be the same variety as the ones you keep but in reality it will have very little in common with it other than its outward appearance. If you have to put fresh blood into your birds, then the results must be monitored over a number of generations if all your hard work isn't to be undone. I'm suspicious of any new blood until I've bred it down to a thirty second or even a sixty forth. You can see now, why IMO line breeding and inbreeding is not really for the backyard flock keeper. To do it properly, even with one breed let alone numerous ones means keeping a huge number of birds. The best way for Joe public to breed good birds, is to simply breed from the best birds that they can lay their hands on. I got my LS locally and thankfully they have laid fantastically well. My coops are full, so i've taken the easy way out this year in trying to breed the next crop of replacement layers. I have a friend on my forum who also has what he reckons are good laying LS, so we've simply exchanged cockerels. Its far easier than having to go through what I've just described. Its one hell of a comittment. |
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| Nat S |
in a way I'm pleased an ixworth won but there's also the niggling thought at the back of my mind that popularity in the showring = the road to ruin for the breed, which was ALWAYS about production, never show. They are boring and not fancy for a reason...
I have to admit when i first saw your 'welsh black's' I thought 'it's a black ixworth?' which confused me as ixworths have stuck with the white colour and others were not created for their purpose - the table. One of the first things I read about ixworths was how 'deceptively heavy' they are, from andrew sheppey who I'm not a great fan of exactly but still: "Ixworths are quite deceptive to look at, being a great deal heavier and more solid than they appear. They are active hardy birds which do well on free range. They have been kept here at Cobthorn for most of the last 30 years and are the breed of first choice when I want a roasting chicken for the table. They are simply our best table breed." I think the looking light thing is down to keeping the bones fine for a better meat:bone ratio and not so much reliance on the indian game side of things which would also affect laying. I have to say, this hen I had the other day was a dainty wee thing when younger and many people told me that it was wrong to be breeding from her. I was not expecting much from her because she'd been indoors on ad lib layers for 18 months but in the last six weeks thrust out onto free range and made to grab a ration of feed once a day, I assumed that would mean weight loss but if anything she was fatty, and fed 8! end of lay ixworth |
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| bodger |
Home grown chicken has got to be the best.
I've got one lone Ixworth chick of about three weeks of age and its mother is protecting him or her as if they were the crown jewels. If it survives and its a good enough specimen, it may well star in my breed a meat chicken programme. |
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| Nat S |
trying, believe me i'm TRYING!? *stupid dongle...* 
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| Woodburner |
Could you shrink the pic please? That's one huge bird!
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| Woodburner |
Ooh that's clever! How did you answer my post before I posted it?
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| Woodburner |
From what I've been reading here and elsewhere there don't appear to be any safe shortcuts. What if his birds' genes don't combine well with yours? Apparently, just because you've both got good strains, doesn't mean the offsping will be good. |
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| bodger |
There's a risk in anything you do, but what i'm saying, is that for most people who want to breed their own replacements the best bet, because of time and space commitments is the straight cross.
This can be between two seperate breeds such as RIR and LS or a cross between two strains within a single breed. As I said earlier, mistakes will always occur whether you line breed or not, but that you've got to be able to recognise them and act accordingly. The best thing that you can do with a mistake in chicken breeding is to neck them and eat the lot. |
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| Chez |
And I understand with line breeding that you eat a *lot* of chicken, at least to start with .
I am really, really unhappy about buying new stock in as birds after my horrendous experience with disease this year; so a closed flock seems a sensible way forwards. But I want to do it properly. |
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| bodger |
What birds do you keep Chez ?
The best, is to get matey with someone who keeps the same sort of birds that you keep and do an exchange with them, either hatching eggs or stock. Quarentine quarters for new stockmis a good idea and you must always remember to feed and water them last. |
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| Chez |
Mostly barnevelders; I am concentrating on them and on cooking up some barnebars from the end of this season. I have actually found someone who is as interested in them as I am (barnies not barnebars - they seem very rare and only Wernlas have them that I can find). I sold her some hatching eggs earlier in the season.
She has offered me cockerels from four different strains that she has hatched this year. I am tempted to take them, then close the flock. I will have enough space for various pens when we get south, if I want to do it. I found this article a good summary of the difference between line breeding and a closed flock. |
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| bodger |
i've just read it and the bloke is totally confused. | ||||
| Chez |
Is he? In what way? Before I read it I thought that 'closed flock' and linebreeding were terms for the same thing - but he seems to think that they aren't? | ||||
| dpack |
my plan is to see what types of bird thrive in the chookmobileand breed from them but meat and eggs would be a good incentive to keep trying | ||||
| bodger |
Without going into detai and totally debagging the article. People keep closed flocks in the hope of keeping diseases and or genetic disorders out and line breeding is done to better the flock and a chieve a degree of uniformity by the selective breeding of closely related birds and does not necessarily revolve around one outstanding bird.
Whilst its nice to breed the odd outstanding specimen, I judge the success of my breeding programme by the general standard of my flock. |
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| Nat S |
I personally do not see the point in line breeding with anything other than an outstanding individual - you are creating many copies of those outstanding genes across your flock in the hope of raising the overall standard of the flock as david says:
"You will gradually be building up the numbers so that by the time the original champion goes off to the great free-range in the sky, you will have enough birds to switch to the rotational system above. This, with careful selection and some luck will be the foundation of a succession of future champions. The aim of breeding for the shows should not be a Holy Grail style quest for the perfect specimen, but rather many years of regularly being ‘in the cards’ at the shows." by linebreeding with a normal/mediocre individual you are simply compounding the mediocrity and not moving forwards? |
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| Woodburner |
For me at this stage line breeding is a way to check out the quality/suitability of an unknown bird.
By breeding back to the unknown bird for a few generations, and monitoring the offspring, I should have a much better idea of his quality, to make the decision whether there is likely to be anything to be gained from using him or rather, by that time, his offspring. I have birds from two sources which I intend to check out in this manner, then cross the best from each side, to start another line. |
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| Castle Farm |
Bodgers post says it all.
It's the same method I have used for years and the Exchequers have had no 'new' blood in for over 30 years.I wouldn't dare bring any in unless I used it in a second string, but I can't justify the amount of time and benifits I might get. That Ixworth today was a very nice bird and well presented On the other hand there was 2 Indian Game 1 cock and 1 hen.. There was no way those birds represented a good Cornish game. The legs were really short and the back of the hen was no way 'flat' so the cock could mount with legs that short. If exhibitors carry on breeding stuff like this some breeds are going to lose out big time. Not fit for purpose it should have said on the card, but it (cock) got a red card. |
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| Chez |
I think that sums up the difference between breeding for showing and breeding for utility 
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| Woodburner |
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| bodger |
There's no easy way. You've got to start somewhere but in purchasing your starter stock you need to go to a breeder whose birds best typify the qualities that you seek to produce in the future.
Take your time and buy the very best that you can. |
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| Nat S |
yup. the cock i lost out to at the national was a huge fat thing sat on its hocks most of the day, whereas mine was spritely, up and about and showing off, proving that he could get round a lot of hens, which is his reason for being  but size reigns supreme in the showring. saw orpingtons like turkeys and wyandottes like orpingtons!? why!?
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