| Archive for Downsizer For an ethical approach to consumption |
| hedgewitch |
Local Council as landownerDoes anyone know how a local council takes decisions on use of the land it owns? I am not happy about how some land that is accessible to the general public is being managed by my local town council and want to find out if they/were they obliged to go through any consultation process with local people about how the land would be managed.I'd also like to know who local councils are answerable to - civil service, national government department? I don't usually get involved. But I think Downsizer is affecting me 
So I thought I could at least come and ask you all some questions  
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| Nick |
No actual idea, based on facts, and that, but I bet your Parish Council should be your first port of call. They're likely to be more sympathetic and know exactly who and what needs to be informed. | ||||
| sean |
I think you need to ask for a copy of the Area Plan, which should detail what they see as the area's requirements for retail/open spaces/housing/whatever. | ||||
| Behemoth |
Park a caravan on it and see who comes knocking. | ||||
| bernie-woman |
Generally land in a parish is either owned by the parish council (quite rare nowadays and usually only fairly small pockets of land), your district/borough council or county council. The clerk of your parish council will be able to tell you who owns it and who makes the decisions on how land should be used so it will either be parish councillors, district/borough councillors or county councillors. Where you live there will be parish, district and county councillors who represent where you live and again your parish clerk can tell you all fo this information.
In general terms it is unlikely that any of the above councils would have to put something out to public consultation as all of the council meetings at whatever level are open to the public (where you should be able to speak before the meeting starts to give your opinion on an agenda item, although you can write to them at any time or visit the councillors at their surgeries, if the have them) and the councillors on the councils should have been fairly elected to represent the community. Copies of minutes of all levels of council meetings are usually available at local libraries and/or the parish clerk will tell you where you can obtain them to find out what decisions have been made. As a member of the community you can ask whatever you like of your councillors and they must answer - oh and councils or local government are accountable to this government department http://www.communities.gov.uk/ 
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| hedgewitch |
Thanks!
Bernie Woman, I know the town council own and manage the land in question. Local government is new to me, but here we have a town council, then a borough council, then a county council. Not sure about a parish council? I'm assuming if we had one the parish council would be elected too and I've only ever voted for the town council members. A lot of people are unhappy with the way the council are managing this land and seem to be being given the brush off from the council clerk (which isn't, as far as I can see, an elected post) by basically being told "This is council land. The council have decided to manage it in this way. It's none of your business and there is nothing you can do about it." As you can imagine, this has irritated me just a little bit 
I want to at least be able to get the council to enter into a discussion, explain their reasons and then be able to state our case and at least have the decision questioned. I have mailed in asking about how I can see a record of how the decision was reached and have had a reply that says, basically, my objections will be raised at the next council meeting and I would receive a response in due course. Only problem with that is I didn't object to anything - I merely asked how I could find out more about the decision making process. 
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| Nick |
I'm pretty sure you can use the Freedom of Information act to simply request any details of any meetings about this land, it's use, and their plans. | ||||
| Behemoth |
Don't forget you local councillor is elected to serve you and should be able to do a lot of this leg work for you. | ||||
| hedgewitch |
Trouble is, I pretty sure one of my councillors is instrumental in the policy Mind you, that can't stop him from getting me the info I need.
Thanks Nick, I was wondering about the Freedom of Information Act. It was next on my list. |
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| bernie-woman |
Your town council is the same as the parish council so you are contacting the right people - the clerk is not an elected post and as such should have no right to say anything to you other than being helpful I would reply to the email from the clerk saying that you do not necessarily want your objection to be raised but you want to know on what date this was discussed and where you can get the minutes of the relevant meetings You will also have a councillor from the town council who represents your ward (area that you live) - ask who this is - your loacl library will tell you this if they have not got a website and contact him/her directly and tell them that you want to see them to discuss this issue - if there are a lot of people then get them all together or ask everyone to write to the councillor for that area - it is not good enough for you to be given the brush off at all and although the council are accountable to national government they are also accpountable to the people they represent - 
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| MarkS |
Freedom of information act request
they HAVE to respond and answer. look up on the council website who is on the commitee responsible for open spaces or whatever activity is taking place. You can sometimes get interesting info by checking the terms under which the council aquired the land |
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| bernie-woman |
Freedom of information is fine and should be used but even without it the minutes of council meetings have to be publicly available and will be placed somewhere where the public can access them
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| hedgewitch |
Thanks everyone. We have already encouraged people to email in and question the decision and state their objections, and that is gathering momentum.
I'm thinking the clerk is a bit above herself and as she is tipped as the main contact is taking it upon herself to be awkward. Asking around, this is her usual response on may different matters, so it's not anything to do with this particular issue. Part of the problem round here is that the local people are very polite and quiet and more than a little nervous of 'officialdom'. They are easy to give the runaround to if you are some jumped-up little Hitler. As I'm a bolshie incomer, I'm hoping I can help out and maybe pay back some of the kindness and wisdom that has been shared with me in the past by at least getting some answers. I've found the committee details and members contacts on the website and have emailed the chair of the committee my question too. Will draft a firm reply to the clerk stating I want information. Hmmm.... this taking an interest in local affairs could be getting interesting.....
'Course, what we really need is M-J to pay a visit 
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| Behemoth |
What's happening on the land?
If you see a wickerman going up, make yourself scarce. |
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| hedgewitch |
It's a couple of fields where people walk their dogs and kids play. The council are letting it out (£10 per month) as grazing land for horses. This hasn't happened yet, but signs have gone up saying dogs must now be lept on leads and livestock are grazing. The areas on either side of the two fields are owned by the county council and have no such restrictions. There are also a number of footpaths and advertised trails going through the land and a railway right next to it. There have been horses here before and there were a lot of problems - they were eventually removed when one of them was killed on the train line causing a lot of damage to a passenger train (and to the horse). There are very few places round here that are open spaces where anyone can run their dogs, and with the horses this will stop. As will the children playing- kids were chased by the horses when riding bikes etc. last time. Not good for the kids or the horses. There are many fields and stables in the area, but not so many open public spaces like this one. There has been now warning or public discussion, although there were lots of complaints to the council about the grazing horses last time. When the horse was killed by the train, they were removed and we assumed that was the end of the matter. It always seemed such a silly arrangement. Given the strength of feeling about the livestock grazing among many in the community, I was not at all happy that signs just went up without any consultation or explanation to the people who regularly use the area. And when people asked what was going on, they were basically given the brush-off. I think there should, at the very least, be some discussion and consideration of all views before a decision is made. This clearly hasn't happened. The general view from the council is grazing is good for the land and the area was horse-free only because they couldn't find an tennant willing to graze there. |
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| Nick |
Find some ragwort on the land. | ||||
| hedgewitch |
 You're an inspiration!
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| Nick |
Oh, you can do paperwork, and petitions, and the law, and stuff, but, you know... | ||||
| hedgewitch |
Yep - just hadn't thought of the right thing
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| Jonnyboy |
Try the national playing fields Association.
http://www.npfa.co.uk/ They are there for precisely this kind of thing. I know someone who used to work in their cymru offices, so if you don't get anywhere let me know and I'll try and get some contacts |
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| bernie-woman |
The government also produced a report on 'open and green spaces' which basically stated that there was not enough green and open space in the country for the amount of people living here and the result of this put immense pressue on local councils to stop selling land for development and to keep it as green space for teh public to access - i will have a trawl and see if I can remeber the exact title of the report - may give you some good defence quotes
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| bernie-woman |
This is a link to the guidance produced by national government for open space and recreational land - http://www.communities.gov.uk/index.asp?id=1144067 - there is a get out clause which states that actual policy should be set locally and should not be done nationally - in that your local council and it will be district or borough should have undertaken a study of all of the open space in the area and produced a report on whether there is enough or not enough and what furture plans are - it may be worthwhile asking what their green space or open space policy is
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| dpack |
if you delay them they will need to graze somewhere else
data protection act is good once you start interacting with them
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| Behemoth |
Don't you have to get a change of use planning permission for equestrian use, or is a grazing horse not equestrian until someone mounts it? | ||||
| bernie-woman |
Yes - you have to be actually using the horses for something other than grazing From the defra website 'planning permission is normally required for the use of land for keeping horses and for equestrian activities, unless they are kept as 'livestock' or the land is used for 'grazing'. |
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| hedgewitch |
Hmmm, this would explain why they are referred to as 'livestock' on the notices. On the old notices they were refered to as horses. The chair of English Nature is on this committee so they are well up on this kind of thing I'd imagine. Thanks again everyone - lots of stuff I can use now
I'll get to work on it next week. We've already got lots of people writing and emailing in and looks like the objections will be brought before the committee. Just as an aside, the bloody clerk told someone yesterday that they would have to wait to see the minutes of a general council meeting held in January until they were put up on the web site! I told them to get straight back on and demand to see the paper copy of the minutes, quoting Bernie Woman and throwing in the Freedom of Information Act as well for good measure.
This, by the way, was a totally separate issue to the one I'm pursuing. They're starting to make me quite cross. |
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| Helen_A |
For a horse to be considered livestock they must be 'wild' or 'unbroken'
If these horses are ever ridden then they are not livestock 
BTW - how much are the council charging for the grazing? That's extrememely cheap... what are the chances that as a group locally you could rent the land and then *not* graze it? You'd need to get someone round to cut the grass a couple of times (to maintain it as grazing would) but otherwise you'd be blocking it from having horses etc. on it until its status could be established. Helen_A |
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| hedgewitch |
Thanks for that info
I'm trying to check out the exact amount. Rumour has it the rent it £10 per month, but I don't know that for sure. To be honest, I don't think many horse owners would want to use it. My neighbour who has stables thinks they are mad as the land is open access and used a lot all day by dog walkers, hikers, kids. At weekends it's very busy as it lies on 3 heavily promoted local trails for toursists, including, ironically, one marking the mass trespass that was opened last week.
There are a core group of around 15 dog walkers who would be happy to chip in, and others who use the site but less often. A similar area has been designated a nature reserve recently, with cattle grazing in the late summer, and dogs can no longer run here. If this one goes too, I was wondering about getting an agreement with a local landowner for dog walkers to pay a monthly fee for access. All are locals, well known as responsible owners. I was thinking there might be some mileage in organising it like a angling club. It's a bit depressing that the local authority seems to be very anti dogs in general. This grazing on council land 'as part of the eco-system' is very trendy round here at the moment. It's a fashion - the entire area is sheep, cattle and horses so it's not exactly short on grazed pasture land. In fact, it's all there is. It's very hard to buy a vegetable of any sort
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