| Archive for Downsizer For an ethical approach to consumption |
| roobarb |
Making a living - downsizing to a country smallholdingHello, I'm a newbie downsizer-in-the-making. Hoping for a bit of useful advice on my situation.My wife & I have recently sold our flat in London (luckily just avoiding the recent market downturn) and we're now renting a smaller place while we look for somewhere in the country. That was the plan, anyway. Our current position is that we've found a smallholding in south Wales (4 acres) that would hopefully be enough for us to be fairly self-sufficient in veg and some meat. The trouble is that bills will need to be paid, fuel, seeds and feed need to be bought, etc., so getting some kind of income is essential. That's where it gets tricky. Neither of us have many skills outside of marketing/web development and I doubt that these are going to be much in demand in rural Wales! My wife is a keen gardener (or was, until we lost the garden when we moved) and I've been learning beekeeping. We have no debts or children (and no plans for either) and enough cash in the bank to buy the smallholding and get ourselves started. Plus plenty of enthusiasm. Are we crazy to be attempting something like this? Has anyone here been through a similar experience, and how did you manage financially? We don't just want to cross our fingers and hope for the best. We don't want to be the cliched townies making a hash of things in the country. We want to be sure that it's a viable plan. Any advice greatly appreciated. |
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| RichardW |
If you dont mind what sort of price are they asking for the place? How big is the house? Any out buildings? On a main road (for free advertising / passing trade)? Near a big town (more customers)? Year round trade potential or just in season?
VSS offer a planning service for just this very situation. Oh & welcome to the site Justme |
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| Jamanda |
And it will come in floods on here 
There's quite a few in your situation, even quite close geographically! I'm not a smallholder, but I'm fellow soon to be beekeeper. Welcome to the forum - have a good poke around the different sections and the articles. |
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| jocorless |
And I'm a Beekeeper already but would love to be on the point of being a Smallholder
Welcome to the site |
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| gil |
Hi there, and welcome to Downsizer 
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| Penny |
Hello and welcome.
Running a smallholding to make an income is just like running any business I would think. Perhaps you should do a business plan if you've not done one already, with all the costs you are going to incur and the income you are likely to need, then see how you can bridge the gap? |
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| Mary-Jane |
Re: Making a living - downsizing to a country smallholding
 Rolls around in hysterical laughter...
Are we crazy to be attempting something like this? Absolutely and utterly. Has anyone here been through a similar experience, and how did you manage financially? Yup, we have. We're broke. We don't want to be the cliched townies making a hash of things in the country. You will be - just like us. We want to be sure that it's a viable plan. Yeah - we tried that too. Any advice greatly appreciated. Have a sense of humour. Be prepared to ask favours - a lot of them. Be prepared to send yourselves up and have the p*ss mercilessly taken out of you. It's back-breakingly hard work. You will lose money hand over fist. You will make a complete balls up many times over. You will have to change your plans at least 6 times in the first two years. You will row with each other in the middle of a field several times and everyone for a 5 mile radius will hear you. You will lay in bed, worn out, exhausted and wonder why anyone ever said to you that downsizing was for quality of life. You will develop aches and pains. You will become obsessed with the weather. You will talk about nothing except feed prices, land management and livestock. The social highlight of your year will be the village hall New Year's Eve party. The social highlight of your weekends will be moaning and groaning on Downsizer about your spuds/beans/fruit bushes etc. You will be constantly asked by your friends from your 'previous life' why you were so insane to do it in the first place. Sometimes you will wonder yourself why you did it... Then one morning, as you're tramping across your few acres just as the sun is coming up, and you breathe in the fresh air, smell the grass and lean on the fence and watch your sheep, or chooks, or ducks, or pigs, or just the early birds...you'll know why. And you'll know that you can never, ever go back to how you were before. I wish you luck. You'll need it. |
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| Gervase |
You'll most definitely need an income for at least the first three years of smallholding, unless you're going to be growing drugs and have trousered a few 'get out of jail free' cards. | ||||||
| sean |
Haven't you got some spare chickens you could let them have to get started with? | ||||||
| Mary-Jane |
He's my husband by the way... 
Oh, and welcome to the site!
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| Mary-Jane |
Shove off Sean. |
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| Penny |
Now come on dear - you really shouldn't hold back,
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| Mary-Jane |
Well, these bright young things should know the truth...that was us 4 years ago...
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| sean |
Were you young four years ago then? | ||||||
| Bebo |
really? |
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| Mary-Jane |
Look - do you want a poke in the eye? |
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| Penny |
*snigger* | ||||||
| roobarb |
Thanks, and hello to everyone on here.
We negotiated the price down to Ģ280k. It's a three-bedroom property (so some possibility of doing B&B) and is in need of updating. There are a few small outbuildings. It's not on a main road but not completely out in the sticks either (about 2 miles from the nearest villages). The nearest large town is about 13 miles away. At the moment we're not ruling anything out. I'm not convinced we could run a commercially viable smallholding off 4 acres (the original plan was just to grow our own food and possibly sell any surplus). At this stage it's difficult for us to estimate how much we'll need to live on. There are too many unknown factors! |
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| Jamanda |
You mentioned web development. We have at least two members who do that for themselves. Fee and Barefoot Andrew spring to mind. It might be worth talking to them about how they started off. | ||||||
| AnnaD |
I'd love to do what you're planning, but sadly can't. I look forward to hearing how you get on though
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| sally_in_wales |
hey Roobarb, I'm one of our South Wales contingent, where is your nearest biggish town, might help with ideas for backup work. Sounds though that some of your IT skills could be used as part of a online business, so maybe some scope for freelance work there. | ||||||
| kevin.vinke |
Welcome to the site 
Definitely an additional income helps as a buffer. All of what MJ said. Despite being what you want to do itīs still quite a shock to the system changing your way of life like this. Donīt expect it all to fall into place, being able to adapt is very important. Go for it! |
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| Treacodactyl |
Hi roobarb, there's some old threads that might be helpful and there's plenty more ideas if you have a rummage, good luck.
http://forum.downsizer.net/about20593.html http://forum.downsizer.net/about15445.html http://forum.downsizer.net/about8985.html |
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| roobarb |
I think that being flexible in what we plan to do is going to be crucial. I'm not underestimating how difficult this is going to be, but perhaps I'm being a bit too pessimistic about our ability to earn an income by other means. My wife is a market researcher so some scope there for part-time home working as well.
Neither of us come from farming or smallholding backgrounds. I'm a real townie born and bred. But we've both had an urge to do this for a while now. If we don't do it, we'll go through the rest of our lives wondering what life might have been like if we'd had the courage. It's great to be on this forum and hear what you have to say. If we were doing this 10-15 years ago we would've felt much more isolated. I think we're going to be regulars on this forum! We'll update you all on how it progresses. (I should point out that we haven't yet bought this place, just put an offer on it.) |
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| Mrs Fiddlesticks |
please do. DS is all about helping each other especially over the isolating bits! Welcome to the site! 
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| colour it green |
welcome Roobarb.
you will always kick yourself if you dont give it a go. and thank goodness for t'internet.. you wont be alone.. and somewhere to ask questions.,. |
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| VSS |
will you have to pay a mortgage?
makes a huge difference to the level of income you need. if you have no mortgage, no kids, etc, and plan to produce a large quantity of your own food then you outgoings will be pretty small anyway - so less need for alternative income streams. Web design is something you can do from anywhere. if you have to make those monthly mortgage repayments though, you are talking about a completly different ball game also when you say viable, do you mean in the sense that you get your produce at a reasonable price, and that the holding esentially runs at break even, or do you expect to get an income from it? |
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| gil |
Downsizing with two of you is a lot better than doing it on your own. Even if you row in the middle of a field.... A sense of humour and of the ridiculous is essential.
What others, particularly Mary-Jane, have said. |
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| Fee |
Hi roobarb, and welcome to the site
I set up my web design business 2 years ago, and I don't regret it for a second. However, it took around 18 months before I might be able to pay the mortgage from my takings regularly, rather than my husband having to pay for absolutely everything. Saying that, I don't rip people off like a lot of web design/dev places, I could be charging a LOT more than I do. Regards location, I have customers all over the place, location really isn't important, though I have found that non word-of-mouth customers tend to be local. Our plan is for my business to be settled and bringing money in regularly enough that it might pay for a mortgage on a smallholding, but that's a little way off yet (it's in the 10 year plan though!). However, there are plenty of freelance web development websites, that I'm sure you know about already, might be worth a look to see what the current situation is there. Also, is it possible to become freelance with your current company? All the best on the offer! |
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| cassy |
Welcome to the site and best of luck with the purchase
You've probably thought of this as you are already downsizers but reducing outgoings seems to be the way forward. As in, "a penny saved is better then a penny earned". There are lots of friendly and helpful people here! |
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| Stacey |
Just to add, you don't have to be from the town to 'mess it up'. My husband and I are 'countryfolk' and we rent a 5 acre smallholding and we're totally and utterly penniless atm. I don't think you can be self sufficient on 5 acres - despite what John Seymour and his army of free help might have stated
Oh, and welcome
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| Mary-Jane |
Absolutely agree with that Stacey my deario!
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| judith |
And seconded. My first suggestion to anyone thinking of moving to a smallholding is normally to throw away their copy of that bl**dy book! |
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| Treacodactyl |
Possibly a topic for a different thread but I think it could be possible if you have a well insulated house and don't include council tax, insurances etc. Edit to add as I don't currently have a smallholding and they other people do then please ignore me.
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| judith |
Exactly. But you can't exclude them, can you? Probably best not to forget pension as well. |
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| gil |
If you haven't already tried these things, and have time before you make the move (given your current lack of garden), you might find it useful to practice various skills/activities between you, and see whether you enjoy them :
Growing herbs / 'cut and come again' veg in pots / tubs Making jam / chutney Making bread Making beer (even from a kit) [wine takes too long, I would think, for your timescale of moving, and you don't want to be transporting 'wine in progress'] Getting your clothes from charity shops Knit or sew something useful (even a dishcloth) Don't necessarily expect a 'traditional' division of labour - find out what each of you is good at. |
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| Treacodactyl |
Difference between wishful thinking and real life. If there's no mortgage to pay then it's certainly worth totally up other expenses as they can be quite high. |
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| Stacey |
I really don't think it's possible tbh. We struggle with 5 acres and have to graze our neighbours' fields as well. It might be possible if you're vegan, dunno 
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| gil |
Acquire DIY, building and car mechanic skills | ||||||
| Mary-Jane |
Ooooh yes indeed. What I think most people don't realise is that the cost of living is not substantially different 'in the country'. The main costs are exactly the same - car tax, insurance and fuel etc, mortgage, house insurance, household bills, blah, blah, blah. Things that are cheaper tend to be luxury items or services that you don't often have anyway - such as haircuts, meals out...that sort of thing. The more you can 'do' stuff yourself the better - Gervase can now virtually rebuild the Land Rover himself! What threw us the most was the amount of savings we had to dig into just for the very basics - even when I was working (albeit badly paid). I would certainly advise people to find local jobs a.s.a.p. - even if they're part-time shelf-stacking jobs - just to keep the finances topped up. Income can always increase, but once you start eating into your capital, when it's gone it's gone. And that's something we lived to regret... |
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| gil |
Ditto. |
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| mochyn |
Do you have any kids? If you don't I'd try really hard not to have any for a good few years!
It's been said before: if you don't go for it you'll spend the rest of your lives saying "I wonder what we'd be doing now if we'd bought that smallholding?" We bought ours 6 years ago and have never looked back. Alright, the old chap works for someone else, but he enjoys his work and giving up was never in the equation. And we have a mortgage. But I'm here all the time, on my own, and so busy you wouldn't believe it! Pigs, ducks, chickens, bees, sewing/knitting/crochet, cooking, then the old chap comes home and does the gardening in the evenings and at the weekend. It's hard work, but we both love it. I'd say: go for it. |
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| earthyvirgo |
Re: Making a living - downsizing to a country smallholding
I think you may have it wrong there. It's (web development) one of the few services/businesses you can run from pretty much anywhere ... as long as you can get a decent connection/broadband of course. We (Veg Plot and I) have successfully run a web dev/design business in North Wales for the past 13ish years and so do several other Downsizers across the country. So some 'freelance' work to keep things ticking over wouldn't be an impossibility. How rural do you consider rural? EV |
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| colour it green |
I dont think anyone can be 'self sufficient' and pay the bills. you either have to run it like a business and sell produce, or have other jobs.
Personally I have a lot of time for J Seymour.. but his other job was selling books. pension? did someone mention pension? ha! dont have one of these and I have a job! we are part time playing at it.. have 2 acres and 2 jobs. its a compromise. there has to be a compromise.. its just a matter of finding yours. |
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| Blacksmith |
Welcome to the forum, I envy you, Give it a go.
Plenty of advice on here, pretty much 24/7 if you need it.
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| guyandzoe |
Oh how refreshing to find negative comments about that seymore bloke. Its quite a lot of hoey mixed with some very bad advice.
4 acres in Wales wont give you a 'living' as in a conventional 'wage'. Unless its drugs as suggested above (see that lovely film with brenda Blethin - cant remember the name). You will however be able to grow all your own meat, and most of your vegetable needs. You may be able to sell some stuff. But it wont make much at all. Our hens are our simplest enterprise they cost us about Ģ1.80 per dozen eggs sold. We sell them at Ģ2.50. So a very simplistic 70p per dozen. 50 birds, say, 30 dozen sold at 70p gross profit ............ and they really arent worth it. Similarly sheep we grow our own meat. It works out about 50p cheaper per kg than I could get in Tescos. Hardly worth the effort Pigs are a different matter if you can tap into a good niche market for well reared rare breed meat. Grown fast (and thats important for turnover and profit) they can sell well and at a good profit. But you need the high priced market. What you do get is good food that you have grown (smug feelings all round) and the cost is spread pretty much around the year. It feels a cheaper life, but probably isnt. You wont be buying Mr Tescos stuff any more and you'll dislike food that comes from supers because Mr Smug wont let you enjoy it anymore. You get a healthy outdoor life, land to look after, a challenge, no bosses!!! Do you have enough working capital - you'll probably need to consider machinery, fencing, livestock, feed. It all costs and it all costs a lot before you ever see any return. But then you wont be paying Mr Taxman for quite a while as your capital allowances are likely to give you a negative taxable income. Which can be a good thing if you are in a position of claiming tax credits because it comes off other family income and the government gives you even more other folks taxes. Living in the country is more expensive that living in town. Everything is too far away, fuel is more expensive, food is more expensive. Other work is farther away. You will get used to using mail order firms because their postal charges are likely to be cheaper than the real cost of driving to town for a box of screws. Get good advice on Tax. If you are on a low income claim everything the Government wants to give you. Claim every farm oriented and environment oriented grant/subsidy thats going. Seriously consider registering for VAT. As a farmer youll produce zero rated goods and buy VAT rated inputs. Theyll always owe you money. Even if its just tuppence. Take advice on forums with a pinch of salt (!like seymore a lot of folk may give well meaning bad advice)) and ask DEFRA etc for the real story. There are simple rules for everything involved in farming and getting them wrong could cost you dear. The rules and paperwork are daunting to begin with but they are sensible and, well, the laws the law and it can bite hard if you ignore it. Similarly with animals - they are not pets and you need to get the most out of them for the least input. But you dont want to starve them or make them unhappy or ill or feed them inappropriate diets - seek lots of good professional advice to temper what well meaning forums tell you. And just enjoy it all. You wont regret it. |
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| katie |
I have to say something in defence of John Seymour. Yes, a lot of what he wrote was optimistic or plain inaccurate but he inspired people to go out and have a go for themselves in a way that a million DEFRA pamphlets would never do, (Imagine  !) There's a need for both.
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| Rob R |
I know nothing of this Seymour chap you're all referring to, but one book I would highly reccommend to anyone considering taking the plunge is the following:
You Can Farm: The Entrepreneur's Guide to Start and Succeed in a Farm Enterprise Yes, I know it's an Amazon link, but they're the only ones on the net I could find who stock it in the UK. |
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| roobarb |
Wow, so many responses while I've been away! Thank you all so much for your words of wisdom and encouragement. We have a lot to think about.
Just to answer a few of your questions: we threw everything we had into paying off our mortgage, which we've now done. We're currently living in (cramped) rented accomodation. We've got some capital saved up for the life change, although it remains to be seen whether it's enough to get us started. Fixing up the property will cost us a small fortune. No children and definitely no plans for any (hooray for modern surgery!) So we've downsized about as much as we can living in the Great Wen. We live pretty frugally (no foreign holidays, no car) and are in the process of de-junking our lives. That's a toughie for me - I find it hard to let go of stuff! We've also been improving our downsizing skills: making bread, chutney and jam, growing some veg (before we moved), foraging for wild food, mending and making do, buying clothes from charity shops. We've more-or-less weaned ourselves off the consumerist impulse, which was easier than I expected. Our initial plan was to just grow our own food and possibly sell any surplus. We're currently vegetarian but that will probably change because we'd have to fertilise the land somehow, and it sure ain't all going to come from humanure! I'm surprised that several people here have said that you can't grow all your own food on 5 acres. I guess it depends on the number of animals you have, and whether you've got children or other dependents. As for the income, it's heartening to hear from Fee and earthyvirgo that web development work is still a viable option. Plus my wife could possibly do some market research work from home. My main worry is the long-term viability of this type of work. On the subject of pensions, I used to think that they were something that everyone should pay in to. Now, though, we've all-but stopped them. Frankly, I think most pensions are going to be worth diddly-squat by the time we're in a position to draw them (I'm 37, my wife is 34). But that's for another thread. In any case, I'm half expecting the severity of the work to have finished me off before that point! |
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| colour it green |
I think with 5 acres.. you could grow an awful lot of your own food.
agree totally re pensions. |
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| Stacey |
Depends if you want to run livestock on it, what type and how many etc. |
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| Treacodactyl |
Depending on soil & location growing food for two vegetarians should be possible on less than 5 acres. However, what about fuel? Also I think people are referring to self sufficiency from the land to also include selling enough to pay insurance and taxes. |
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| Mary-Jane |
Aye Stacey...nodding sagely in agreement. |
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| RichardW |
Having no car whilst cheap will cause problems.
Justme |
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| Rob R |
Don't be so sure, Yarrow would be the chap to ask about this, he is pretty convinced that agriculture without animals is sustainable. |
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| Stacey |
What sort of veg can we grow in this country that will sustain people all year round? | ||||||
| VSS |
good stuff though it is (when thoroughly composted), you would struggle to provide enough for 5 acres 
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| gil |
Reckon you'd need to read up on appropriate crop rotations (veg rotations contained within a wider rotation involving grass pasture [which you mow and compost]; green manures; legumes and other nitrogenous crops). Also useful to read might be material about organic 'stockless arable' rotations, and the controversy as to whether or not these are sufficient / sustainable longer-term. Composting would be of great importance too. |
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| RichardW |
Lots. Most root veg will store over winter, as will dried pulses, salads in poly tunners, some veggies still grown year round too. Ok the diest will be limited but with carefull planning storage you should be ok. We (as in the human race) used to do it before the world got smaller metophopricly speaking. Meat consumption was minimal.
Justme |
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| Stacey |
None of ours has ever stored particularly well Must be doing summat wrong.
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| roobarb |
And there's the feedback loop of more humanure <--> more food intake. Perhaps we should live on pulses and then at least we can heat our home through natural gas. Better start knitting some special pants
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| Treacodactyl |
You don't have to have your own animals though, aren't many people giving farm manure away? A method of collecting it would help. |
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| Jonnyboy |
Would have thought so, horse manure seems to be easy to come by, even if you need to compost it first. |
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| gil |
how could I have forgotten to mention this ? Some to apply now, some to mix and compost for later. A couple of presents from the farmer next door that arrived yesterday. As much as I want, whenever, delivered. He's a splendid neighbour. Good neighbours can be really important. And being a good neighbour yourself. |
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| Yarrow |
Yeah, a well designed polyculture can provide a lot of the nutrients necessary to keep land healthy year after year. Of course practically no system operates without some outside influence, after all 'all systems are part of a system'... Don't know if it's been mentioned but as well as Seymours' Self Sufficient Gardener, I'd recommend Whitefields' 'Earth Care Manual', the basic permaculture text for temperate climates.
A little bit of foraging can yield a great amount of earthfood- leafmould from roads, comfrey, and apparently most any green plant will add power to a fertiliser... |
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| mochyn |
You'll also need to join Freecycle, your local LETS scheme, Liftshare etc.
Does the area you're moving to have any public transport? If you've no car that's going to be vital. |
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| dpack |
hi ,welcome .
good luck |
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| roobarb |
Yes, there's a bus route along a road not too far from the house. We have no car at the moment because we live in London so there's no need for us to have one. That doesn't mean that we won't have one in Wales. It might be essential. Yarrow - we've got Seymour's Self-Sufficiency and Patrick Whitefield's book. One day I must find the time to read them! |
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| suomi |
Welcome Roobarb
Go for it and enjoy..... everything that Mary-jane said is absolutly true! but boy will you have full,fun,frustrating,rewarding, life ahead of you. we have done the same as you although we are in Finland! and an added "extra" is learning the language! yes its tough,hard work but ultimatley very rewarding and the learning never stops...ever..ever..ever...! we are lucky that we have been able to get part time work teaching English ( bloody difficult language! you suddenly realise just how complicated it really is!) anyway GOODLUCK
oh yes I also have to agree on some of the negative comments on John Seymore, although he does state its also for" Realists and dreamers" some of its a little too idealistic! but still a good read. |
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| mochyn |
OK. Have you checked how often the buses run, though? We have one a week in our village... At least it's on market day, though. My old chap has a small Peugeot for work: low consumption, pretty good little car. I have a short wheel base Landrover for mucky stuff and for towing the pig trailer. You'll need to consider the length of the journeys you'll be making the most often. You could try doing without a car to start with and review the situation in a few months. |
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| Blue Peter |
Provided the land is good enough to grow green manures, I can't see why putting some of the plant material through animals is essential for fertility. Surely if you took all the herbage from what animals would otherwise eat and made compost from it, you'd get even more than from manure? Peter. |
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| JB |
I remember Seymour's self sufficiency guide advocated keeping livestock or you would have to import manure or fertiliser to improve the ground. Not sure why that should be the case but it seemed to be advocated even if you were not going to use the livestock for meat. |
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| gil |
Seymour was probably writing before much work had been done on organic stockless arable rotations, for instance, and before the more recent emphasis on composting and green manures | ||||||
| Rob R |
The main difference is that stockless rotations will rely more heavily upon a human/mechanical input to build fertility and many of the highly portable constituents of fresh plant material are better utilised & stabilised by animals before being incorporated. Anything that promotes life in the soil will have a positive effect on long term fertility though. |