jema
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management layersJust hearing on the news that a couple of BA executives have been shot for the terminal 5 fiasco and it got me thinking about places I have worked.
I don't think I have worked in the worst of places in this regard, I have worked in places with absurd numbers of relatively benign management layers, and I have worked in places with psycho management where you really had to be careful what you reported to them 
Combine the two and by the time you reach the top, you have managers who have been lied to, by people who have in turn been lied to, and down possibly half a dozen or more layers.
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Jonnyboy
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Well as far as the NHS in concerned you'll be pleased to know that RPA is doing away with swathes of management levels. In our trust HR, IT & finance are now woefully understaffed and have high levels of temp staff as well.
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Shane
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They want to be careful - they'll end up with less managers than the combined total of doctors, nurses, porters, cleaners, etc, and we can't be having that in the NHS!
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Nick
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The two guys from BA were told, repeatedly, openly, and loudly by lots of staff that the terminal would not function, that opening it all in one push was a very bad idea, that systems hadn't been tested, that tested systems were going wrong and that not enough training had been given. They decided to go ahead anyway. Clearly, this is anecdotal rather than hard fact, but it's the views of several senior cabin crew.
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Shane
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Also anecdotal are reports that the baggage handlers purposely went on a go-slow to make the previously highlighted problems even worse than they would have been anyway.
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marigold
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| Shane wrote: | | Also anecdotal are reports that the baggage handlers purposely went on a go-slow to make the previously highlighted problems even worse than they would have been anyway. |
And who can blame them if that is true? I'd be utterly astonished and amazed if any baggage handlers were actually asked to make suggestions or take part in any way to the new system design...
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Jonnyboy
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| Shane wrote: | | They want to be careful - they'll end up with less managers than the combined total of doctors, nurses, porters, cleaners, etc, and we can't be having that in the NHS! |
Facts please.
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kevin.vinke
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itīs all fairly typical of the goal orientated management system.
Senior management set a goal which if itīs not achieved means those junior have failed. This goes on down the line till it comes down to those who physically have to put that goal into action. When they raise issues they are often put down as being negative. If the issues do get sent back up to senior management they are often put in the best light and with unrealistic timescales in getting them resolved.
"Blinkers management"
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judith
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| kevin.vinke wrote: | itīs all fairly typical of the goal orientated management system.
Senior management set a goal which if itīs not achieved means those junior have failed. This goes on down the line till it comes down to those who physically have to put that goal into action. When they raise issues they are often put down as being negative. If the issues do get sent back up to senior management they are often put in the best light and with unrealistic timescales in getting them resolved. |
Plus the fact that the people who get to become "senior" management have generally concentrated their efforts throughout their careers on doing what it takes to move up to the next rung - rather than doing the job properly at the level they currently occupy. Consequently they have very little appreciation of what is needed to actually do the work satisfactorily.
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jema
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I was working on a software project once, where some years in I discovered that someone I had never heard of several steps up the ladder was supposedly responsible for it
Admittedly it only confirmed the knowledge it was all dooomed 
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jema
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| judith wrote: | | kevin.vinke wrote: | itīs all fairly typical of the goal orientated management system.
Senior management set a goal which if itīs not achieved means those junior have failed. This goes on down the line till it comes down to those who physically have to put that goal into action. When they raise issues they are often put down as being negative. If the issues do get sent back up to senior management they are often put in the best light and with unrealistic timescales in getting them resolved. |
Plus the fact that the people who get to become "senior" management have generally concentrated their efforts throughout their careers on doing what it takes to move up to the next rung - rather than doing the job properly at the level they currently occupy. Consequently they have very little appreciation of what is needed to actually do the work satisfactorily. |
When my project manager tried to object to "the little shit" being put in charge of our department, he was told "he's got to manage someone" A culture based around middle management careers with no regard for ability 
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vegplot
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At one place I worked the middle and upper management teams had gradually over the course of a few years decided that all staff who didn't have a career rocket strapped to their backs had to be got rid of.
Over time lab techs, dyed in the wool scientists and engineers were eased or forced out to be replaced by 'managers'. The output of the company plummeted and closed down. I left to work for myself before it did.
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Bebo
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Gulp.......I thought this thread was about dealing with hens when I read the title. 
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Northern_Lad
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| Bebo wrote: | | Gulp.......I thought this thread was about dealing with hens when I read the title. |
No, that would be Layer Management, not Management Layers.
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Bebo
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Either that of a missing : between the words
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orangepippin
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| Shane wrote: | | They want to be careful - they'll end up with less managers than the combined total of doctors, nurses, porters, cleaners, etc, and we can't be having that in the NHS! |
Having worked in a project management position in the NHS, I can say that when you need a doctor, you need a doctor. When you need a manager, you need a manager. People who are good at treating health problems are not always as good at organising things. However, I agree it is a common management problem to ignore the insight of the people actually doing the job, maybe some of that happened at BA.
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jema
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It is definitely a problem with management anywhere.
Promotion through the ranks may end up with technicians forced into management positions they don't like and can't do well.
But simply having "managers" means you end up with careerists who know sod all about what they manage and cannot earn the respect and cooperation of those they are foisted upon to manage.
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Jonnyboy
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| jema wrote: | It is definitely a problem with management anywhere.
Promotion through the ranks may end up with technicians forced into management positions they don't like and can't do well.
But simply having "managers" means you end up with careerists who know sod all about what they manage and cannot earn the respect and cooperation of those they are foisted upon to manage. |
Not specifically, but pay scales dictate that if you want to earn more you need to get into management.
We have an excellent 'hands on' comms& network guy here who will become management soon, because the lure of cash is outweighing his loathing of the potential job.
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vegplot
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| jema wrote: | It is definitely a problem with management anywhere.
Promotion through the ranks may end up with technicians forced into management positions they don't like and can't do well.
But simply having "managers" means you end up with careerists who know sod all about what they manage and cannot earn the respect and cooperation of those they are foisted upon to manage. |
Nicely put. We always seem to need managers don't we, or at least told we should.
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Jonnyboy
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Being called a 'manager' and actually 'managing' people are completely different. We have tons of people here called 'managers' who are actually doing quite specialised jobs.
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jema
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I used to me a "managing consultant" which I think loosely translated meant "techy we had better give a title to and pay well" as I don't recall managing very much at all
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orangepippin
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| Jonnyboy wrote: | | Being called a 'manager' and actually 'managing' people are completely different. We have tons of people here called 'managers' who are actually doing quite specialised jobs. |
Managers don't only manage people, they can manage jobs and projects.
Good managers make it happen, mostly down to good leadership, having a vision, not worrying too much about the details. It's a skill, some people have it and some don't. As has been said though, often people end up in "management" roles for no particularly good reason.
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vegplot
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| Jonnyboy wrote: | | Being called a 'manager' and actually 'managing' people are completely different. We have tons of people here called 'managers' who are actually doing quite specialised jobs. |
I've met 'managers' who can't manage and non mangers who make great managers but not very many 'managers' who are good at managing. I think we all have at some point.
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Fee
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Oh Lordy, I worked for IBM, where they assume everybody wants to become a Project Manager and forget about programming or designing altogether. The levels of management in that place are ridiculous, even after chopping out a load of senior management a few years back.
 I just realised it's almost exactly 2 years since I left!
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