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The sow

Micro Pig

I am a freelance journalist writing a story on the downside of breeding and selling these pigs. I would be grateful if anyone on this forum could contact me on lindafreelancejournalist@btinternet.com if any of the points below apply.

1, You have bought a micro pig and it has grown much larger than you were told it would

2. You have bought a micro pig and it has died or suffered any serious illness within a year of buying it.

3. If you have any photos of micro pigs that have suffered ill treatment.

4. Have you got a pig that for whatever reason you have had to send back to the breeder - what happened, did they take it back.

5. If you have bought a micro pig, were you encouraged to buy two.

Finally is there anyone out there who owns one who lives in a house without a garden of any sorts.

Thank you very much for this help. Names will be kept confidential unless you are a sanctuary and you want you name published.

Linda
Shan

Hi Linda. To be fair, the majority of people on here would be keeping pigs to eat them.
The sow

I know shan, but there might be some person out there who thought buying a micro pig and contributing to the next generation of unwanted pets was a good idea that they are now regretting
Gervase

Not having heard of micro-pigs, I Googled.
Blimey. The agency story in the Daily Hate says it all, really.
Set 'em up as the latest sleb accessory, wait a few weeks and then come down on the idea like a ton of bricks.
All aboard the outrage bus. Ting ting!
Ixy

Funny how it says in the article that the breeder says they are so amazing she doesn't know why nobody thought of having them as pets before.....they did - potbellies. That didn't work out either Rolling Eyes

Pigs are so destructive anyone would be mad to have them in the house!
The sow

I am not too sure how to take your reply gervase, but I am surprised you haven't heard of them as there are 5 pages of micro pigs on River cottage, of which you parcipate. Those in the know have been watching the rise of the micro pig with horror. The story in the nationals is unbalanced and giving the public the wrong idea about owning them. I am trying to balance that view as in the main people don't understand what is behind keeping them. I know it is highly unlikely that someone on here will keep them, but I am posting everywhere to try and get feedback. If you go to the moneywise forum, you will see a couple of pages of comment, sensible may I add on the keeping of these poor pigs.
Gervase

Sorry - I did have a vague memory of seeing something freakish on the BBC website, and so consciously didn't read any of the micro-pig threads on the River Cottage site.
On here, though, I know most of the pig people, so someone posting about micro-pigs was unusual enough for me to open the thread, and one thing led to another...
Gervase

Actually, Google throws up an interesting counterblast to the original story here
chicken feed

Very Happy i think this survey is being done rather late in the season you would have been better placed going to some of the shows where the micro pigs have been and asking perspective buyers, buyers, owners & the breeders as previously said on this post most of us using the livestock/pig section keep them for meat or breeding.
i personally keep pigs for meat, chickens for meat & eggs and a micro pig is no more than a fad/designer pet.
The sow

Its not actually a survey, but an article for a national newspaper. As a pig breeder myself, you don't tend to find people at shows that own these pigs, so that would not have helped. I think I mentioned that it was unlikely for people on here to have these pigs, however, it might be likely that someone knows someone else.
chicken feed

Very Happy the micro pig breeders had static stands at a few shows this year to advertise these pigs i must say whenever passing the stands you could not get near they were always busy. they had taken a couple of sows and a litter of weaners, so would have been a perfect place to get your information from
bodger

Small pigs have fallen foul of money makers for years.

First of all, it was Vietnamese Pot Bellied Pigs that were all the rage. They were exchanging hands for astronomical prices at first, but in more recent times they havent been worth a bean. As far as practicality goes, they are useless. Ten years ago, I was offered a full litter of virtually full grown pigs free for slaughter. I refused, I like some meat with my fat.
The people who joined the gravy train early on made quite a bit of money out of selling VPBs to the unsuspecting.

I can hear howls of objection already but this is how I also view Kune kune pigs and the latest fad to hit the scene, micro pigs. Designer pets .
Tavascarow

I have never kept or eaten kune kunes but from what I've seen of them they don't look like they will run to fat like a pot belly.
For someone with limited space they may be ideal for home pork & bacon production. Also maybe ideal for someone off grid without freezer space or with small families.
As far as micro pigs are concerned I fear that greed & lack of knowledge will cause genetic problems in their breeding much the same as for many of our 'toy' dog breeds.
The sow

Which shows were they at? I went to 9 shows this year, most of them major and I didn't see any micro pigs.

Tavascarecrow, I agree. But they are already suffering genetic problems, it is not something that will happen, it already is.
Jamanda

I saw some kune kunes at another DSer's recently. They certainly weren't pets, and were destined for the freezer, the benefit being that a smaller amount of meat is more manageable for a small family. This seems very reasonable to me?
chicken feed

Very Happy i can tell you which shows we attended this year just cant remember where they were as the shows are always busy for us i just remember seeing the banners on our evening walks and crowds during the day time.

leicester
oakham
newark
lincoln
east of england
royal norfolk
waylands
great yorkshire
east of england autumn show

they were at the last show for sure. we have at least 3 breeders within 30 mile of us.
bring me sunshine

My KKs are tasty tasty! Just right for the two of us Smile Though I have given up on the idea of selling to strangers - too many people who want a pig for their garden so long as it doesn't poo, pee, dig or make a noise Mad

I know a few city folk who are oohing and aahing over the idea of micro pigs.

And one smallholder who was thinking of getting one for his daughter but, in his words, the breeder he started speaking to "has lost it". Don't know what that's about!
bodger

It would be interesting to see how they they rated the meat compared with other rare breed pigs and also what their thoughts on the effort involved to meat ratio.

The bubble may have burst a little price wise where Kune kune pigs are concerned with the latest craze being micro pigs but I can get 'ordinary' weaners for £25.00 a piece, I wonder what the asking price for kune kune weaners is ?
bring me sunshine

Bodger, the bigger the pig, the more efficient it is, cost wise, in terms of a conversion to meat. I'm the first to admit that and that's something I knew when I started with KKs.

I kept a couple of Welsh xs before getting KKs and only ever intended to keep a pair of KKs as, well, just to have them, and then get a porker in every so often for the meat. But the KK breeder I first spoke to mentioned eating them ... so I did!

Just seen the time, need to dash, but I'll add more later. No idea about prices, though there's a huge gap between pedigree and unregistered. And I mean a HUGE gap.
Shan

We also keep KK's for meat. I'll let you know in a few months how they taste. The reason we are doing it is the as 'Bring Me Sunshine'. Smaller carcass and more manageable for us.
Tavascarow

bring me sunshine wrote:
Bodger, the bigger the pig, the more efficient it is, cost wise, in terms of a conversion to meat. I'm the first to admit that and that's something I knew when I started with KKs.

That isn't neccesarily true.
Quail are a fraction of the size of broilers & turkeys, but their meat to feed conversion rate is higher than any of them, infact if what I've read is true higher than any livestock.
The more I post & read this thread the more I'm thinking kune kunes would be ideal for me.
Size would also mean home slaughter wouldn't be such an ordeal.
Killing & butchering a dead kune kune would certainly be a lot easier than a GOS or saddleback & the money you would save on the abatoir costs would certainly pay for the extra feed they may need to reach killing weight.
bodger

Bred for the job mate. thumbup
Ixy

kune kunes are eaten in new zealand are they not?

I think small pigs are fine - It doesn't run true that big = efficient. The farming industry gets told this by people who sell feed, because big animals need a lot of feeding. It's handy having many smaller animals rather than one big one for things like freezerspace, and keeping the meat 'on the hoof' until you're ready for it.

We had to eat a young piglet recently who got a terrible hernia - it felt sad, she had a name and we were going to keep her on for breeding, but on the plus side a whole ham fit in our teeny oven!! I definately think there's potential there for people with limited space who enjoy keeping pigs and want to know where their meat's coming from, and process garden waste.

BUT, I would like to hope they would be not be kept in the house, and would be bred carefully so they didn't get too fat to be any use and suffer from the genetic things that crop up when you start trying to breed tiny animals!
bodger

You're kidding yourself. Kune kunes were bred in primitive conditions by people who at the time were also primitive.
As far as I'm concerned, this link says it all as far as keeping the breed as practical producers of meat.

http://www.specialbreeds.co.uk/kune-kune-pigs.html
bring me sunshine

Ok, I take the point in general about size. I'm operating on a severe lack of sleep atm, brain not expressing itself properly.

For the amount of meat vs the length of time you keep them vs the 'effort' (as Bodger put it earlier), my KKs haven't give as a good a return as my two Welsh Xs. A bucket of water is a bucket of water, no matter how much the joint will end up weighing.

That said, I love em, they're bloomin tasty, they're a delight to keep, and I can manage them on my tod. And the amount of meat I get back suits my freezer and family size!

But they're not house pets (well, one thought he was but that's another story) and my blood runs cold at the thought of pigs (or any animal) being treated as fashion accessories.
The sow

This article is purely about micro pigs which does not include KK which are a breed in themselves. Micro pigs are bred runt to runt and are a hybred.
bodger

No escaping the fact that all three breeds mentioned were brought into the country for the same reason. Thats for the people breeding them to make big money by selling them. The micro pig is simply the next must have designer piggy pet.
The sow

Micro pigs aren't a breed and they weren't brought into this country. I could be wrong but I thinkl Pennywell down in Devon started the trend by breeding runt to runt from pedigree breeds such as tamworth, GOS a few years ago. When we had a stand at the Royal five years ago, someone came up and asked us if we sold handbag pigs. We thought they were winding us up but I know now this is the pig they were on about. These pigs have been specifically bred for the pet market. True KK have been marketed as suitable for pets, but they are also used for meat. A few of our customers have them specifically for meat.
bodger

Whether they were brought into the country or created here, makes very little difference. The VPB pig was brought into the country to be a "handbag" pig.
How many of your KK customers have them as pets rather than freezer fodder ?
The people who are cute enough to get in at ground level are always the ones tomake the money. We've seen it with ostriches, we,ve seen with all sorts of animals, even snails. Very Happy people spend large amounts of money on stock and then realise that the only market that they have is finding other mugs to buy from them.
The sow

whats a VPB pig, never heard of them - am I missing something. I agree it is all about money, which is why I have been commissioned to write an article, to expose this side of things. But at the same time I don't think we can let emotions rule, we have to get the facts right.
mochyn

Vietnamese Pot Bellied, sow.

Here's a micro-pig who is genuinely OK for a handbag:
http://forum.downsizer.net/viewtopic.php?t=47118&highlight=

She's house broken, costs very little to keep, and exttremely cuddly!
The sow

oh sorry, didn't even think. very embarrassed. Embarassed
Ixy

The people you're calling primitive are akin to what we'd call peasants. No reason KKs can't work in a 'peasant' (smallholding/ds/self sufficency) set up here. Smaller pig = less food, less space, less water. smaller joints, smaller freezer, less electric, no abattoir fees etc etc etc. Same as small cattle, and smallholders just lurve dexters - so what's different?
Jools

I'm going to put my hand up and say that I'd love KK's as pets, but not *micro pigs*.

*Micro pigs* are made for the dumb market and unfortunately, if posh and becks have bought into the spiel, so will loads of other people and that's what worries me.

Pigs, from what I've read on forums, are intelligent creatures, which is why I would love to have some.

I couldn't eat them if I had them for two reasons, the first being that I don't eat meat (other than fish) and the second being, if they're intelligent like dogs and you enjoy their antics, how can you then take pig to slaughter and eat them?

I'm not trying to cause an argument, just curious about how people who are aware of decent animal husbandry can eat the animals that they've named.
Chez

Personally, I like to eat meat and I would rather eat something that I know the provenance of than something that might have been factory farmed or badly treated.

I don't name things I am going to eat, though - once they have a name they are a pet, not a meal, to me, anyway.
GSHP

We raise our own animals for meat, as many here do. Knowing that the animals have been well cared for and fed well sits easier with us than eating annoymous lumps of meat bought from the shops.

For pork we buy in a batch of weaners a year. They are named but usually end up being called the girls.

For lamb we have a couple of ewes, in effect I guess these are 'pets' but their offspring are for the freezer. They are also named. When asked 'what's for tea?' the reply is often George (or whoever)

All the animals are loved and respected and in the end their lives are justified by providing us with food for our table.
Chez

GSHP wrote:
... their lives are justified ...


I think that that's an important point when looking at the issue of raising small quantities of livestock that are essentially pets, names or not, and then eating them.

I understand from vegan friends of mine that 'proper' vegans don't keep pets, in addition to not eating or using animal products / by-products. If humans didn't farm animals, on a large scale or a small scale, not nearly so many, or so many varieties would exist.

It's an interesting ethical dilemma, however you come at it.

Why do you eat fish and not flesh, Jools? Interested in your standpoint. A fish is still sentient - how and why do you differentiate?

I would add - I was vegan for a while because I felt that if I was prepared to eat an animal then I should be prepared to kill it. Now I am not vegan, because that is what I do.
Porky

Evening all,
i feel i must come to the defence of those who imported the Kunekune into the UK in the early nineties;
Kunes were almost extinct in NZ - the last 18 were found in the seventies and a breeding program was set up . It was the same people who arranged and set up this breeding program who were responsible for the export of the kune to UK.

This project was undertaken not to line pockets but to establish herds of kunes elsewhere in the world in order that the breed would never again be threatened with extinction.

They were not marketed as pets when they came over but as viable smallholders pigs who were good to eat and not as destructive or difficult to handle as some larger breeds can be.

I have the original articles from Smallholder magazine to this effect.
Chez

Porky wrote:
They were not marketed as pets when they came over but as viable smallholders pigs who were good to eat and not as destructive or difficult to handle as some larger breeds can be.


After talking to Bring Me Sunshine about hers, I am keen on the idea of keeping them for this very reason.
bodger

Am I odd? I raise small batches of pigs, dexters and chickens for food and they are not 'essentially' pets.

Porky, are you saying that KKs didn't exchange hands for large amounts of money when they first came to the UK ?

Seems like they are still a tad on the pricey side.

http://www.preloved.co.uk/fuseaction-adverts.showadvert/index-1032121666/251d795c.html

How much do you reckon a pork chop off one of these would be ? Laughing
Jools

Thanks for your replies.

At the age of 11 back in 1974, a friend and myself decided to try being veggie for a weekend for ethical reasons, ie, we didn't feel it was right to kill an animal for food when you could get all your nutrients elsewhere. We had no idea about the ethics other than that at that time.
She only lasted the w/end, but I carried on, with a caveat from my mum that I would eat fish, eggs and cheese. And so I have and now I'm one of those *vegetarians* who aren't, really, cos I eat fish.
But in those days and still now a lot of times, if you went out to eat, the veggie option was a cheese salad or omelete. Nom nom!

When I had my first baby, I didn't bring him up as a veggie. I felt that it was something that he should decide, like religion. And my other children have been brought up the same way (their fathers were meat eaters).

My hubby loves his meat and thanks to Hugh F-W, it's a lot easier to buy good welfare meat. And that ticks my boxes. I have no problem cooking meat (except rabbit...that looked too much like a human!) and my roast dinners are the talk of the town (well, not the town, but amongst the people who have had one!)

I've even tried meat from time to time. The last time was when my friend cooked a goat curry a few months ago. I'd never had goat when I ate meat so I tried it.
I was disappointed. It tasted like meat (of course!) and a bit like lamb.

I find it interesting though, when I'm cooking, and also frustrating, that I can't taste the food if it has meat in, so I rely on memory and smell.

I hope this has given you an insight into my way of thinking! (Possibly too much!)
Porky

they did exchange hands for a large amount of money - about £500 i believe but then there were only 8 in the country!

Nothing like the price micro pigs are going for and there's plenty of those around,
bodger

Fools and their money. Very Happy Its just another in a line of fads thats here today but will swiftly be gone tomorrow.
chicken feed

Very Happy i could not agree more with bodgers above comments.

but i do not understand how two runts( as per sows comment) can breed micro pigs has anyone got ant ideas Question i was of the understanding that these micro pigs came over from germany after years of breeding minauure vpb and then crossing them with other breeds. and in my years of experience any runts reared correctly can and more often do grow to a normal size and weight. Wink
bring me sunshine

All mine have names. They'd end up with names anyway, though the names would be descriptions (I think we did this one on a thread about sheep?).

Jools, you're more than welcome to come over to meet mine, so you can see what they're like in the flesh, especially in the wet with all this rain!
The sow

Unfortunately, they may be gone tomorrow, but we are left with the fallout of unwanted pigs, just like the pot bellies. Don't confuse the german micro pig with these fashion accessories. Certainly these micro pigs that are being bred and have been in the news recently are being produced by breeding runt to runt. As we all know, if it isn't an established breed, you will get throwbacks, therefore there is no guarantee that a micro pig will not grow bigger. A fact that perticular breeders fail to mention!!! These micro pigs are being bred from GOS, tamwoth and KK.
chicken feed

Very Happy i do understand that these micro pigs have kk, gos,etc in the breeding as well as vpb i live less than 15 miles from little pig farm i have some contact with the couple so i do know what i am saying.
bring me sunshine

Going back to the original question, one of my friends recently posted on her Facebook page that she "really wants a miniature pet pig". She's lovely but is a ditzy, flighty city-dweller who, thankfully, later conceded that while she loves the idea of a cute pig running about her London apartment the idea is preferable to the reality.

But how many will confuse the appeal of the idea with the reality?
Tavascarow

I suppose the upside is when they get tired of them or realise they are not a practical pet for an inner city appartment they are just the right size for the barby.
bodger

The Sow.
I see that you describe yourself as being a free lance journalist but from your signature, its also apparent that you are connected with a fairly well known 'piggy' company.
I might be being cynical here but you have already named and shamed two people in these pages who are not in a position to defend themselves. Are you quite sure that your motive in starting this post isn't just to gain ammunition inorder to have a side swipe at a group of people who are your rivals in what you consider to be your niche market.
Its unfortunate if this offends but it is how it comes across to both myself and to other people.
The sow

Sorry, I don't mean to offend. I have for some time been working as a journalist as well as owning Bidgiemire, many of my articles appear in the smallholding magazines as well as glossy magazines and I don't just write on pigs. I feel very strongly about this and just because I am writing an article does not mean that I can't pass my opinion which is separate to the article. The article will be factual and unbiased where these posts are emotional and how I feel. I decided to write an article after talking to other poeple who were keen to have the other side of the story told. The micro pig breeders are in no way our rivals. There are not in our niche market which is traditional breeds. So our paths would never cross unless of course they wanted an ark Laughing I would never consider selling micro pigs, as you know we sell arks and the larger proper pigs Very Happy I have connections with people rescuing these pigs and therefore I am hearing first hand what is going on with these poor pigs,I am hearing that these micro pigs are ending up in terrible places so I think everyone who is connected with pigs should be concerned and worried.

That aside, in my research for this article. I have found out from RPA that you can obtain a CPA number even if you live in a flat. Surely this is worrying because it means that these pigs can end up in a flat as indeed they have done.

Bodger, it is not only me who questions the selling of these pigs, it is quite a major worry amongst breed societies and of course the sanctuaries who are already seeing them ending up there.
chicken feed

Surprised i would have thought you would have known how easy it is to obtain a cph being a campaigner for urban pig keeping Exclamation so why the surprise
The sow

No there would be no reason to know that as we never sell to usuitable places, like a flat. This has been a surprise as I am sure it is to most people Very Happy Very Happy
Rob R

'Landless' smallholdings are nothing to be alarmed about- I had one for years and many people do. I also know of plenty of 'farms' that don't have land. Abattoirs, markets and collection centres are all 'holdings', so for all these reasons you can't practically exclude people from getting holding numbers, but at least when they have a number they can be inspected.

Back to micro-pigs though, I'm suprised once-bred gilts have not been mentioned. Once it was thought that this would be the future of commercial pig production- breeding a gilt once and then sending her for bacon. The problem came when weights started to drop progressively with the generations and the idea was dropped (I don't know of anyone doing it now, anyway). Has the once-bred gilts system been revived for micro breeders? If not, they're missing a trick there.
ruby09

I watch this forum regularly although because I don't have any animals yet I feel unable to contribute in a worthwhile way. However I want to tell you a story about a micro pig that I had the misfortune to come across. The pig had been bought from a person who breeds them (I daren't say the name) but they have been in the media quite alot recently. Anyway the pig was sold as a micro pig to a family with young children, they lived in an urban area although they did have a garden. They got a cph but didn't I learned later, knew about getting herd numbers, they weren't told apparentely. They kept the pig for two years in which time it grew and it grew until this micro pig was as big as a big kune kune. In the meantime, it destroyed their garden and bit their youngest child twice and generally made a nuisance of itself. When they bought this pig, they were told a) it would stay small b)at no time were they encouraged to buy two even though pigs need to be with at least one other, and c) the money had to be paid before they saw the pig. Now I am no expert but in my opinion this micro pig thing has totally got out of hand and I feel that the only reason for breeding these is for the money. You tell me how someone can charge over £600 for these pigs when pigs that provide meat and have a reason for being bred sell for I believe around £60. This is pure greed and these people who sell these pigs can dress it up all they want, it is a load of rubbish, greed and that is the only reason. Is there anyone here that agrees with puppy farms, well to any sane person, its the same. Breed them as fast as you can, and sell them as fast as you can to line your pockets. All the fancy websites in the world for these pigs don't dress up the fact that this is a form of puppy farming. I personally think we should all make it our business to stamp on this once and for all. The BPA have a hard job as it is educating people on keeping pigs. I should think this is their worst nightmare come true. Oh and the pig that grew and grew ended up at a sanctuary along with 7 other micro pigs that had been abandoned. Their story needs to be told. Mad
Jamanda

Thanks for signing up to join in Ruby. I'm sure the Sow will be very interested in your story.

I hope you'll hang around and join in some of the other threads too.
Rob R

Jools wrote:
At the age of 11 back in 1974, a friend and myself decided to try being veggie for a weekend for ethical reasons, ie, we didn't feel it was right to kill an animal for food when you could get all your nutrients elsewhere. We had no idea about the ethics other than that at that time.


I was vegetarian for two years but stopped when I was about 10 because I didn't like to think that an animal had given its life to feed me. Then when I thought about it (being from two farming families) it didn't add up. I liked keeping animals, and without eating them I couldn't afford to keep them, so that left crops [and I was never going to make an arable farmer; when about the only crop I was interested in growing was... grass]. I also realised that animals don't stop being killed when we stop eating them- the chemicals, poisons and other vermin controls are all about killing and are central to almost every vegetarians diet [and since then I have realised that producing meat from grass involves a lot less killing than growing the equivalent protein in a field pulse crop, it's just that the bigger the animal, the more easily you can look it in the face & feel guilty]. At that point I had to concede that being vegetarian was pointless, and I started off on the route I have taken since, i.e. producing good food with benefits for all stakeholders in the foodchain.
The sow

Rob R wrote:
'Landless' smallholdings are nothing to be alarmed about- I had one for years and many people do. I also know of plenty of 'farms' that don't have land. Abattoirs, markets and collection centres are all 'holdings', so for all these reasons you can't practically exclude people from getting holding numbers, but at least when they have a number they can be inspected.

.


I am like you Rob, although as you say there are holding numbers for abattoirs etc, I would have thought when it is obvious that a pig is going to be kept for a length of time then the minimal welfare requirements for that pig eg garden, two pigs rather than one are adhered to. If an owner feels it is ok to keep a pig on its own in a house, then I worrry as do other breeders, they will feel it is ok to give it meat etc. Although we can't blame pet owners for starting foot and mouth, I feel there is clearly a risk potential .
ruby09

Thanks Jamanda, I see you are in North Devon, I'm in Devon. I would like to join in but as I have no animals, I feel it is only my humble opinion. I will be pming the sow if I can work it out Very Happy
Ixy

The sow wrote:
Rob R wrote:
'Landless' smallholdings are nothing to be alarmed about- I had one for years and many people do. I also know of plenty of 'farms' that don't have land. Abattoirs, markets and collection centres are all 'holdings', so for all these reasons you can't practically exclude people from getting holding numbers, but at least when they have a number they can be inspected.

.


I am like you Rob, although as you say there are holding numbers for abattoirs etc, I would have thought when it is obvious that a pig is going to be kept for a length of time then the minimal welfare requirements for that pig eg garden, two pigs rather than one are adhered to. If an owner feels it is ok to keep a pig on its own in a house, then I worrry as do other breeders, they will feel it is ok to give it meat etc. Although we can't blame pet owners for starting foot and mouth, I feel there is clearly a risk potential .


But you can have a holding number for a flat or as was my case, a terraced property in town, and then keep your livestock on land down the road, which doesn't belong to you and doesn't have an address in it's own right. Stopping giving holding numbers to landless properties would be a disaster for some.
Tavascarow

ruby09 wrote:
Thanks Jamanda, I see you are in North Devon, I'm in Devon. I would like to join in but as I have no animals, I feel it is only my humble opinion. I will be pming the sow if I can work it out Very Happy

Don't be put off.
There are many people here who have neither land nor livestock.
& welcome from me down 'ere.
Smile
The sow

The RPA woman did say that people with holding numbers in a town often had land a few miles away and I think this should be encouraged, people in towns keeping a piece of land for growing veg, raising animals. It the people who keep animals whether it be pigs, goats etc in places that comprise their welfare that shouldn't be allowed cph's, so minimal checks should be in place at the very least. I am contacting trading standards on Monday to see what their take is on keeping a pig in a totally unsuitable place such as a gardenless property. I would be interested in what checks are carried out or whether once you have a cph, you can get away with murder.
Shan

Jools wrote:
I'm going to put my hand up and say that I'd love KK's as pets, but not *micro pigs*.

*Micro pigs* are made for the dumb market and unfortunately, if posh and becks have bought into the spiel, so will loads of other people and that's what worries me.

Pigs, from what I've read on forums, are intelligent creatures, which is why I would love to have some.

I couldn't eat them if I had them for two reasons, the first being that I don't eat meat (other than fish) and the second being, if they're intelligent like dogs and you enjoy their antics, how can you then take pig to slaughter and eat them?

I'm not trying to cause an argument, just curious about how people who are aware of decent animal husbandry can eat the animals that they've named.


I name my pigs and yes, I give them affection and yes, I have every intention of eating them. I want them to have a good fullfilling life. Who says that an animal destined to become meat, should not have attention or even affection? Surely, it is crueler to buy some anonymous lump of meat?
Ixy

Jools wrote:


Pigs.....are intelligent creatures.....I couldn't eat them.....if they're intelligent like dogs....how can you then take pig to slaughter and eat them?



I'm just wondering if this just applied to pigs with you, or other intelligent creatures too? To be perfectly honest, from my work training cattle I would put them as intelligent, if not moreso, than a german shepherd and certainly as intelligent as a pig. Mine have learnt things in a fraction of the time it took the dog to learn a comparable trick. They are also as affectionate with me as the pigs - they love a belly/back rub as much as the pigs do and will come away from the rest of the herd to get one.

One easy example for me is that of the pigs we have in outdoor pens behind an electric fence. It seems that once they have got used to the fence, we can't possibly get them over the line where the fence was for love nor money. It takes forever to convince them, and no matter how much they look or how much we cross the line, or put food out or whatever, they just don't seem to learn, even though they are moved every week or so.

Whereas when I first started paddocking the oxen behind an electric wire, when the fence came down the first time and I attempted to lead them over the line, they hesitated but when they saw me cross, obviously assumed it was fine and followed - not even a food bribe involved.
bring me sunshine

Ixy wrote:
One easy example for me is that of the pigs we have in outdoor pens behind an electric fence. It seems that once they have got used to the fence, we can't possibly get them over the line where the fence was for love nor money. It takes forever to convince them, and no matter how much they look or how much we cross the line, or put food out or whatever, they just don't seem to learn, even though they are moved every week or so.


I'm not jealous.... I'm not jealous....
GSHP

Hi ruby09 Welcome from another Devonian, you don't need animals to join in Smile
Ixy

bring me sunshine wrote:
Ixy wrote:
One easy example for me is that of the pigs we have in outdoor pens behind an electric fence. It seems that once they have got used to the fence, we can't possibly get them over the line where the fence was for love nor money. It takes forever to convince them, and no matter how much they look or how much we cross the line, or put food out or whatever, they just don't seem to learn, even though they are moved every week or so.


I'm not jealous.... I'm not jealous....


no, you're really not! Or if you are, next time we have to move 'em, you can give it a go!! Laughing
GSHP

When we applied for our CPH number and herd number we were visited as a matter of course by someone from the state veterinary department. They inspected where we were going to keep and house the pigs, took samples of food and advised on present regulations.Do these insepection not happen elsewhere.
Ixy

GSHP wrote:
When we applied for our CPH number and herd number we were visited as a matter of course by someone from the state veterinary department. They inspected where we were going to keep and house the pigs, took samples of food and advised on present regulations.Do these insepection not happen elsewhere.



No! Definately not - I got my CPH number no fuss. Never saw an official bod - to this day. I rang THEM to see when they needed to see me about...well, anything really and they told me I'd get a letter in january (2010) to tell me that they'd be wanting to come see me in August. I'd got my holding number january 2007 Shocked

Then I moved in with Rob so in all the time I had my own holding, they never once came to see me or it, or the livestock I processed through it, which, given that most went for human consumption struck me as a bit slouchy, but whenever I rang they seemed very unconcerned about it all.

Which I don't mind, but it does make you wonder what others get away with!
GSHP

They didn't worry when I first applied for the CPH and flock number for the sheep but as soon as I applied for the pigs they turned up for an unexpected visit. That was three years ago and I had another this year. I know it is common practise in this county, CIG also keeps sheep but as soon as she kept pigs had an inspection.
Porky

surely it is the land that has the holding number not the person?
if you live in a flat and keep your pigs on someone's land down the road, the owner of the land will have a holding number that applies to that piece of land.

As far as i can see, when people apply for a holding number, a few questions need to be asked and inspections need to be made of not all, but some of the applications - the dodgy ones.

on a seperate issue, i'm with you Ruby and well done for saying it like is.
i voiced my opinion on the Daily Mail website after all the little pig farm publicity and was publicly flayed alive by jane croft on facebook. her banner on facebook read 'Wendy S, Saint, pig rescuer and TW*T'
there can be no reason for the pushing of micro/mini pigs other than financial, unless of course its so that all the people who think piglets are cute can be happy now Laughing

while i'm here, i have to ask - how in the world would bidgiemire be in competition with micro pig breeders????
bodger

Both the purveyors of piggies.

Do you and Ruby know each other ?
Ixy

Porky wrote:
surely it is the land that has the holding number not the person?
if you live in a flat and keep your pigs on someone's land down the road, the owner of the land will have a holding number that applies to that piece of land.



Not always - what if the land doesn't have an address? what if you rent it from someone who doesn't have a holding number? what if you rent grazing on a seasonal basis - if the holding number went with the land you'd have to transfer your flock/herd into somebody else's name every time you moved. That would give rise to a number of 'interesting' ownership 'issues' I can imagine...

You can even have 2 separate holdings on the same piece of land, with 'shared facilities'.

How do you distinguish 'dodgy' applications from 'nromal' applications, given you're just filling in a form?
Porky

i don't think we know each other,

don't think bidgie and LPF are after the same market though
Ixy

Rob's just pointed out that if you live in a flat, there's no rules to stop you buying land!
Porky

even if the land doesn't have an address, if it has ever been used for agricultural purposes it should have a CPH

not sure what you mean about renting on a seasonal basis and transferring etc. - surely the only use of the holding number would be on licences moving animals to and fro? am i being thick??

its the herd mark that identifies you to your animals isnt it?

i understand the next bit - we have 460 acres with 3 holding numbers as it is used by seperate tenants and of course if it were on one CPH we would constantly be putting each other on standstill.

when i said 'dodgy' i was meaning if someone fills a form in , puts '0' in the acreage box and then states that they wish to keep livestock
Ixy

Porky wrote:
even if the land doesn't have an address, if it has ever been used for agricultural purposes it should have a CPH

not sure what you mean about renting on a seasonal basis and transferring etc. - surely the only use of the holding number would be on licences moving animals to and fro? am i being thick??

its the herd mark that identifies you to your animals isnt it?

i understand the next bit - we have 460 acres with 3 holding numbers as it is used by seperate tenants and of course if it were on one CPH we would constantly be putting each other on standstill.

when i said 'dodgy' i was meaning if someone fills a form in , puts '0' in the acreage box and then states that they wish to keep livestock


Not all land has been used for ag. purposes though so pieces could exist that don't have holding numbers - woodlands for example.

You need a holding number before you get a herd number - if holding numbers only went to landowners, everyone else would not be allowed a herd number.

If you have cattle, you have to have passports and they stay with the KEEPER not the OWNER and the movements are noted in there. So you'd merrily fill in the passport to denote that the cattle were on so-and-so's land - hey presto, they just gained themselves free cattle! How can you prove they are yours if the landowner's name/number is the one in the passport, and they are the one with it in their hand? With other livestock, what would go on the eartags? Who would do the paperwork? If something bad was found to be going on, who'd take the flack in the eyes of the law?

If you have multiple holding numbers on one property, you are all subject to each other's standstills if you 'share facilities' (shared grazing, buildings etc).

Anyone who rents land would be classed as 'dodgy'.
Rob R

It may be useful at this point to take a look at the RPA website

RPA wrote:
How do I apply for a CPH number for land in England?

* Ring the Customer Service Centre on 0845 603 7777.
* Choose the Customer Registration option.
* Choose the next option based on the type of registration you require.


Explain to the Customer Service Centre operator why you need a CPH number. They will check to see if we already have your details. If we do not, they will ask you for some information to check whether or not you need a CPH number and what type of CPH number you require. We will write to you when this has happened and tell you what the CPH number is. If you need the number urgently for moving animals we will ring you to let you know the number as well as sending you a letter.

What information do you need when I apply for a CPH number?
When you ring the Customer Service Centre we will ask you for:

* SBI (if you are already registered with us)
* Organisation Name
* Land Location - Postcode or OS Grid Reference(s)
* Tenure (e.g. owner, owner/occupier, tenant 365 days or more and tenant 364 days or less)
* Activities (e.g. cattle keeper)
* Contact Details


We will also ask you to give any other information you think is relevant and which may affect the CPH allocation.

Do I need / can I have a CPH number for horses?
You don’t need a CPH number specifically for horses but, if you are a horse owner who wishes to claim the Single Payment Scheme you do need a CPH number. If you want to register a horse then you need to contact the relevant breed society.

What is the 5/10 mile rule for CPH allocations?
The five mile rule applies to all sheep and goat keepers and simply means all land within a five mile radius of the main Place of Business is covered by one holding number, it doesn’t need a separate CPH number. The five mile distance is measured as a straight line from the main site and any outlying land that is within five miles of the main site (either fully or partially) is all considered to be the main holding. Only land outside this boundary needs a separate CPH number.

The ten mile rule applies to all livestock keepers, excluding sheep and goat keepers. The ten mile rule works the same way as the five mile rule.

Animal Health / trading standards / BCMS say that I need an additional CPH for temporary grazing, but the 5/10 mile rule suggests I don’t, so what do I do?
If you claim SPS and have extra bits of land you use for temporary grass keep that would fall within the 5/10 mile rule, then you will need a temporary CPH number. This is for cross compliance purposes.
We would assign you a CPH number from the 7000 series to cover this temporary grazing.

I keep animals on someone else’s land, do I need my own CPH?
Yes you do, if you are responsible for the animals. The CPH will link your record to the animals and the land area.
bring me sunshine

Ixy wrote:
bring me sunshine wrote:
Ixy wrote:
One easy example for me is that of the pigs we have in outdoor pens behind an electric fence. It seems that once they have got used to the fence, we can't possibly get them over the line where the fence was for love nor money. It takes forever to convince them, and no matter how much they look or how much we cross the line, or put food out or whatever, they just don't seem to learn, even though they are moved every week or so.


I'm not jealous.... I'm not jealous....


no, you're really not! Or if you are, next time we have to move 'em, you can give it a go!! Laughing


Ha! I left the fence off for what, an hour and a half this afternoon? Came back to find my young boar grazing on the wrong side, looking very pleased with himself. Luckily the piglets didn't follow him Laughing
bring me sunshine

Porky wrote:
her banner on facebook read 'Wendy S...'


Is it wrong that I thought I recognised Buzz in your profile pic?
BadgerFace

And to cloud the CPH matter further, I found this on DEFRA's web guide to Pig Identification...

Quote:
Paperless registration of pet keepers

There are increasing numbers of people who keep one or two animals as pets, for example pot bellied pigs, who find they need to comply with animal movement legislation and therefore require a CPH number. In the past they have had to go through the same procedure as our other customers to register with us. However this has now changed.

For those customers who are only keeping animals as pets and do not take part in any of the schemes administered by the RPA or for which RPA make payment, registration can be completed over the phone and a CReg 01 will not need to be completed. This new procedure started on 1 August 2008.



So it seems if you want to keep a pet pig one simple phone call is all it takes ? Shocked
Porky

well done badgerface, pity you didn't come up with that one a bit earlier ! Very Happy Very Happy

must learn how to do that quote thing on this forum - can anyone give me a quick lesson?

no, you didn't recognise Buzz on my profile pic, that's me and Sue


We are definitely not subject to standstill on the other CPH no's on our land, i've had loads of paperwork checks over the years and its never been a problem

[/quote]
Porky

must learn how to do that quote thing on this forum - can anyone give me a quick lesson?

just worked it out!
Rob R

Porky wrote:
must learn how to do that quote thing on this forum - can anyone give me a quick lesson?



Just ensure that anything you want to quote is
Code:
[quote]written between the two quote functions, like so[/quote]


If you press the quote button in the 'Post a reply' window it puts the start quote function in [quote ] and an asterisk appears on the button, press it again, the asterisk disappears and it puts the end quote function in [/ quote]

If you type in ="the name of the source you wish to quote" after the word 'quote' into the start function, it will add their name in, as below:

Code:
[quote="Rob R"][/quote]


Edit: well done!
Ixy

Porky wrote:


We are definitely not subject to standstill on the other CPH no's on our land, i've had loads of paperwork checks over the years and its never been a problem



do you share facilities?
Porky

not sure what you mean -
we have a farm, 15 acres of its mine with my holding number,
4 acres of it is rented by a bloke who has a holding number for that bit and the other 430 odd acres are farmed by another bloke under another holding number.
bring me sunshine

Porky wrote:
no, you didn't recognise Buzz on my profile pic, that's me and Sue


Embarassed
Jools

bring me sunshine wrote:

Jools, you're more than welcome to come over to meet mine, so you can see what they're like in the flesh, especially in the wet with all this rain!


I would love to. Thanks. Smile

I'll pm you.
Jools

Shan wrote:
Jools wrote:


I'm not trying to cause an argument, just curious about how people who are aware of decent animal husbandry can eat the animals that they've named.


I name my pigs and yes, I give them affection and yes, I have every intention of eating them. I want them to have a good fullfilling life. Who says that an animal destined to become meat, should not have attention or even affection? Surely, it is crueler to buy some anonymous lump of meat?


I quite agree with you. It's just that I think I'd become too attached to them. You know, in my head it all makes perfect sense, but my heart would over-rule my head! Laughing

Ixy wrote:


I'm just wondering if this just applied to pigs with you, or other intelligent creatures too? To be perfectly honest, from my work training cattle I would put them as intelligent, if not moreso, than a german shepherd and certainly as intelligent as a pig. Mine have learnt things in a fraction of the time it took the dog to learn a comparable trick. They are also as affectionate with me as the pigs - they love a belly/back rub as much as the pigs do and will come away from the rest of the herd to get one.

One easy example for me is that of the pigs we have in outdoor pens behind an electric fence. It seems that once they have got used to the fence, we can't possibly get them over the line where the fence was for love nor money. It takes forever to convince them, and no matter how much they look or how much we cross the line, or put food out or whatever, they just don't seem to learn, even though they are moved every week or so.

Whereas when I first started paddocking the oxen behind an electric wire, when the fence came down the first time and I attempted to lead them over the line, they hesitated but when they saw me cross, obviously assumed it was fine and followed - not even a food bribe involved.


Nope, not just pigs. I'd feel the same with any animal. That's interesting about how the two different animals reacted to your moving the fence. Smile

To be honest with you, I don't think that I'd eat meat even if I did sort out my head and heart. Mum said I was never very keen on meat when I did eat it (which is probably why I found it so easy to give it up) and the few times I've tried little bits since then, I didn't like the taste nor the feeling it left in my mouth afterwards.
But, as I said, I'm quite happy to cook it for my family, so it's important to me that it's good meat and I'm so glad that more people are rearing animals in a good environment.
Chez

Jools wrote:
I quite agree with you. It's just that I think I'd become too attached to them. You know, in my head it all makes perfect sense, but my heart would over-rule my head! Laughing


It's hard to start with, but you get used to it. And it helps if you have an arrangement with someone where they help you with yours and you help them with theirs. Moral support and all that. And a big freezer means that you can leave the bits for a few months and don't then think 'Oh, we're eating Mable'.

I think that if you get to the point where it's enjoyable you are probably a bit psychotic.
mochyn

Chez wrote:
Jools wrote:
I quite agree with you. It's just that I think I'd become too attached to them. You know, in my head it all makes perfect sense, but my heart would over-rule my head! Laughing


It's hard to start with, but you get used to it. And it helps if you have an arrangement with someone where they help you with yours and you help them with theirs. Moral support and all that. And a big freezer means that you can leave the bits for a few months and don't then think 'Oh, we're eating Mable'.

I think that if you get to the point where it's enjoyable you are probably a bit psychotic.


Do you know, it's never worried me in the least. I know my pigs/chickens/ducks have had good lives and I look after them right up to the end. The chaps at the abbatoir are a good bunch: I wouldn't take animals there if I didn't trust them. And if we don't eat rare breeds no-one will keep them and then no more Tamworths. A sadder world.
bring me sunshine

mochyn wrote:
Chez wrote:
Jools wrote:
I quite agree with you. It's just that I think I'd become too attached to them. You know, in my head it all makes perfect sense, but my heart would over-rule my head! Laughing


It's hard to start with, but you get used to it. And it helps if you have an arrangement with someone where they help you with yours and you help them with theirs. Moral support and all that. And a big freezer means that you can leave the bits for a few months and don't then think 'Oh, we're eating Mable'.

I think that if you get to the point where it's enjoyable you are probably a bit psychotic.


Do you know, it's never worried me in the least. I know my pigs/chickens/ducks have had good lives and I look after them right up to the end. The chaps at the abbatoir are a good bunch: I wouldn't take animals there if I didn't trust them. And if we don't eat rare breeds no-one will keep them and then no more Tamworths. A sadder world.


Indeed. Whenever I finish a meal made from one of my lot, I always thank them. And yes, I am quite flippant about it ("sosage de Harold, anyone?") but that's not being callous, or at least it's not meant to be. Knowing which cut etc comes from which pig means that they're not reduced to being the same anonymous lump of meat you get in the supermarket. And I want to enjoy the meal: what's the point of rearing them and making sure that they're happy and content if I'm going to be miserable eating them?
Rob R

That advantage doesn't have to stop if you buy your meat either- small producers might only give them numbers, rather than names, but you should be able to ask them about the animal that it came from. Interestingly supermarkets could do too- they just don't tell you it on the label. Mad
bring me sunshine

Rob R wrote:
That advantage doesn't have to stop if you buy your meat either- small producers might only give them numbers, rather than names, but you should be able to ask them about the animal that it came from. Interestingly supermarkets could do too- they just don't tell you it on the label. Mad


A good point. I'm trying to persuade a friend to go halves on some beef in a box ... If so, I expect to be told all the details Wink
Rob R

Ooh-err, thanks, how much is too much information? Very Happy
bring me sunshine

I can live without dates and diagrams Laughing Laughing
Rob R

Meet the parents? Laughing
bring me sunshine

Shocked How big are the boxes?!

Baby photos, a lock of hair, souvenir from their first holiday ... that ought to do the trick Laughing
Rob R

Check. Laughing
bring me sunshine

BTW, can't seem to load the beefinabox website from your sig...
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