Northern_Lad
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Mixed wardsThere's a lot of ho-ha in the news about the "apalling scandal" that not mixed wards have not been "eradicated" from hospitals as a matter of priority. Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the priority should be to make sure they're clean, safe and get you better, not who you're wheeled next to.
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jocorless
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I think its about the dignity aspect especially amongst the older generation and ethnic minorities both of which have issues about mixing sexes - to be honest I totally agree with you - I don't really care whether I'm next to a woman or a bloke as long as the ward is safe and clean and I'm getting the correct treatment but I can see how that would really upset say my Mother in Law especially when you are effectively sat in bed in your pj's or nightdress
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Jamanda
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I have to disagree here NL. It is about dignity and privacy. Logical or not, I think a lot of people (particularly women) would choose single sex over clean. And really clean should go with out saying - the other is the policy decision.
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Snowball
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Call me greedy or an idealist if you like, but why can't we have safe, clean and dignified?
I remember when my mum was first admitted to hospital. There was a lady in her 70's desperate for a commode, but unable to move very much herself. The ward was criminally understaffed, so the nurse forgot to pull the curtains round the bed. When I walked in this lady had been stuck on there, with her hospital gown undo at the back and it was around her midriff. There were male patients either side and opposite her. Her distress still haunts, and angers me over ten years on.
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Brownbear
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I think it's reasonable that emergency admissions have to go into mixed wards sometimes - lifesaving comes before personal dignity. But for long-term patients it ought to be single-sex.
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Jonnyboy
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| Snowball wrote: | | Call me greedy or an idealist if you like, but why can't we have safe, clean and dignified? |
Agree.
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Northern_Lad
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| Snowball wrote: | | Call me greedy or an idealist if you like, but why can't we have safe, clean and dignified? |
Well, yes, but that's as likely to happen as Bush admitting that he's a war-monger with the intellect of a particullarly dim cucumber.
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Behemoth
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Call me a numpty...thank you...but apart from men being nagged into an early grave does illness and infirmity strike us all roughly equally and could a statistician at least have a stab at guessing that half the sick people will be males and half female and at least for general wards could be provided and staffed accordingly?
I'm sure a management consultant could tell me otherwise.
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Snowball
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Northern_Lad wrote:
| Quote: | | Well, yes, but that's as likely to happen as Bush admitting that he's a war-monger with the intellect of a particullarly dim cucumber. |
I don't have any research, but I would have thought that being stripped of basic human dignity while in hospital, would have a negative impact on the likely success of any treatment you receive.
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Northern_Lad
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| Snowball wrote: | | I don't have any research, but I would have thought that being stripped of basic human dignity while in hospital, would have a negative impact on the likely success of any treatment you receive. |
I'm in complete agreement with you there. However, in the case you gave, the lady in question would have been distressed no matter what kind of ward she was on. The treatment simply wasn't good enough.
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mark
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Well i spent a few days in hospital next to an old guy who seemed to spend most of his time trying to touch up the nurses..
I can't think a female patient without the ability to escape would have relished the experience.
Mind you i wished i could escape - he spent all night awake causing a rumpus!!!
mark
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Azura Skye
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| Northern_Lad wrote: |
I'm in complete agreement with you there. However, in the case you gave, the lady in question would have been distressed no matter what kind of ward she was on. The treatment simply wasn't good enough. |
okay so the treatment was terrible, but I think it was ADDED distress to have a mixed ward.
I know - it doesn't really make much sense - but when I was in hospital last year I was really relieved that it was an all female ward.
I felt a bit more comfy getting up and going to the bathroom, I wouldn't like it if I had to walk in my pj's feeling ill and having men look at ya go ! : D
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cab
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| mark wrote: | Well i spent a few days in hospital next to an old guy who seemed to spend most of his time trying to touch up the nurses..
I can't think a female patient without the ability to escape would have relished the experience.
Mind you i wished i could escape - he spent all night awake causing a rumpus!!!
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I think this is a very important post. Most of the time, for most patients, it isn't likely to be an issue. But you know, people are funny, and sick people can act funnier still. The impact of mixed wards when people are sick and at their most vulnerable can be unsettling, to say the least.
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mark
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possibly another issue is that in general men don't mind being on a mixed ward they are generally being cared for by female nurses anyway so what's the difference) whereas frequently women do.
mind you and i will probably get shot for this - i know the nurses who cared for me when i was in hospital for 3 weeks last year said they much prefereed the male bays and that the female only wards were hell to work on - as they got called loads more often to re-arrange the bed or move the flowers - or to sort something out - whereas the blokes tended to be a bit more stoical and undemanding and wait their turn
mind you i was in the trauma wards ful of active blokes who had sport or work injuries and the women were more likely to be older gals who'd "had a fall"
Mark
mark
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gnome
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it's true that a lot of older people would be more stressed by a mixed ward - feeling that it is embarrasing and an afront to their dignity.
but a lot of older people are also rather racist, (i know my parents are) and would feel the same sense of afront to their dignity if they were put next to a person of another race. so by the same arguement, should we have aparthied wards? from what i can gather, trying to manage non-mixed wards can be a logistical nightmare, and sometimes by necesity someone would have to be put into a ward of the opposite sex because of a space problem that could be more of a problem than a ward that is meant to be mixed anyway.
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wellington womble
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I think being in hospital is inherently very undigified, but the I spend a lot of time behind the curtains, so I suppose I'm not a very good judge. It's not to keep it behind the curtains though.
There are more women than men, so you would need more female wards. There are also more female staff, so that might be an issue too. On the whole, patients are completely incapable of judging all the important things that go on in hospitals, because they don't have the expertise, so they will use easy, objective markers to judge quality of care - cleanliness, dignity, food quality, etc. It's no measure of health care, but it's accessible to everyone to make a judgement on.
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Rob R
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| gnome wrote: | it's true that a lot of older people would be more stressed by a mixed ward - feeling that it is embarrasing and an afront to their dignity.
but a lot of older people are also rather racist, (i know my parents are) and would feel the same sense of afront to their dignity if they were put next to a person of another race. so by the same arguement, should we have aparthied wards? from what i can gather, trying to manage non-mixed wards can be a logistical nightmare, and sometimes by necesity someone would have to be put into a ward of the opposite sex because of a space problem that could be more of a problem than a ward that is meant to be mixed anyway. |
I was thinking the same thing. And on that note should homosexual people have yet another ward to themselves? It gets trickier the more you think of such respect as you go up the generations.
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gnome
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when you think about it, dignity is the first thing to fly out of the window when you go into hospital - and you expect that. there can be little more undignified than having a total stranger stick their hand up your jacksie, or probing your insides with a camera - if you can face that you can surely face having to share a ward with a dozen people of mixed gender / race / sexual preference.
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Jamanda
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| gnome wrote: | | when you think about it, dignity is the first thing to fly out of the window when you go into hospital - and you expect that. there can be little more undignified than having a total stranger stick their hand up your jacksie, or probing your insides with a camera - if you can face that you can surely face having to share a ward with a dozen people of mixed gender / race / sexual preference. |
No. I would not be comfortable trying to sleep in a room with a strange man in the next bed. Any tests or treatment you receive is one thing, but the other 23 hours of the hospital day need not be any more unpleasant than is necessary.
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Marionb
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| Jamanda wrote: | | gnome wrote: | | when you think about it, dignity is the first thing to fly out of the window when you go into hospital - and you expect that. there can be little more undignified than having a total stranger stick their hand up your jacksie, or probing your insides with a camera - if you can face that you can surely face having to share a ward with a dozen people of mixed gender / race / sexual preference. |
No. I would not be comfortable trying to sleep in a room with a strange man in the next bed. Any tests or treatment you receive is one thing, but the other 23 hours of the hospital day need not be any more unpleasant than is necessary. |
Totally agree.
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Rob R
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| Marionb wrote: | | Jamanda wrote: | | gnome wrote: | | when you think about it, dignity is the first thing to fly out of the window when you go into hospital - and you expect that. there can be little more undignified than having a total stranger stick their hand up your jacksie, or probing your insides with a camera - if you can face that you can surely face having to share a ward with a dozen people of mixed gender / race / sexual preference. |
No. I would not be comfortable trying to sleep in a room with a strange man in the next bed. Any tests or treatment you receive is one thing, but the other 23 hours of the hospital day need not be any more unpleasant than is necessary. |
Totally agree. |
Me too.
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Jonnyboy
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Me three, as mentioned earlier. Dignity, cleanliness and decent care don't have to be mutually exclusive.
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Jamanda
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| Jonnyboy wrote: | | Me three, as mentioned earlier. Dignity, cleanliness and decent care don't have to be mutually exclusive. |
I think they are mutually inclusive. At least you can't really have the last without the first two. Not outside emergencies and childbirth anyway, and even then the cleanliness should be there.
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toggle
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| Jamanda wrote: | | gnome wrote: | | when you think about it, dignity is the first thing to fly out of the window when you go into hospital - and you expect that. there can be little more undignified than having a total stranger stick their hand up your jacksie, or probing your insides with a camera - if you can face that you can surely face having to share a ward with a dozen people of mixed gender / race / sexual preference. |
No. I would not be comfortable trying to sleep in a room with a strange man in the next bed. Any tests or treatment you receive is one thing, but the other 23 hours of the hospital day need not be any more unpleasant than is necessary. |
There's a difference between having a doctor do stuff that is 'undignified' and having to do that stuff in front of random strangers.
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gnome
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er Rob - you are male, so if they had seperate sex wards, you would have to sleep next to a strange man - unless by some chance you knew him. i think the whole point of it is that they can't afford to continue to have same sex wards anymore - so if it is a toss up between mixed wards or cutting down on the cleaning staff - which will you choose?
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Jamanda
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For me that would be a hard choice. I might choose not to go to hospital at all.
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Rob R
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| gnome wrote: | | er Rob - you are male, so if they had seperate sex wards, you would have to sleep next to a strange man - unless by some chance you knew him. |
Exactly.
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sean
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| gnome wrote: | | i think the whole point of it is that they can't afford to continue to have same sex wards anymore - so if it is a toss up between mixed wards or cutting down on the cleaning staff - which will you choose? |
'They' can. You could do away with coronary care units for a start. And an enormous number of machines that go bleep. And then you could still have cleaning staff.
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Grimnir
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| gnome wrote: | | there can be little more undignified than having a total stranger stick their hand up your jacksie. |
You should try being a shy 16 year old male, in hospital with a bust leg, and having 2 student nurses (both pretty if memory serves) ask you which one you would prefer to give you an enema. I didn't know whether to sink through the floor or just die with embarrasement at the thought of choosing which girl had to stick their finger somewhere no finger had gone before!
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Becki
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My Mum nearly had 40 fits when she was on a mixed ward after her knee OP. She's in her 70's and she felt very unconfortable.
When I had a long stay back in the late 80's they were single sex. Because I was a minor on an adult ward I had to have a side room.
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Jonnyboy
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| gnome wrote: | | i think the whole point of it is that they can't afford to continue to have same sex wards anymore |
No, the whole point is that mixed wards exist and they aren't moving to single sex wards fast enough.
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mark
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i gues like everything there are positives and negatives
what is important is that patients are happy and unstressed. a stresse patient heals slower and has a supressed immune system and is more likely to need to stay in hospital longer and contract infections.
For me thre last tie i was i hospital the biggest stress was noise at night - when i was woken in the middle of the night i could not get off to sleep again - because of the pain
I personally would not have minded a mixed ward - i enjoy mixed company and have never been much of a fan of the single sex thing - and as i was more or less stuck to my bed for 3 weeks far from home and friends i might have been nice to see the odd woman beside the nursing staff occasionally
but i think if anyone feels stressed by a mixed sex ward everything should be done to respect their dignity and reduce heir stress to promote healing.
Because I was stuck in bed and unable to walk i had to use a bottle to take a pee. It's actually quite hard to do that quietly - its bad enough trying to do it quietly when its visiting time - but i guess in the middle of the night a lady in the next bed might not appreciate the sound effects of me peeing in a bottle.
I don't real get embarrrassed by much myself so usually laugh these things off but i do know some people who just would not be able to do the necessary in those circumstances.
basically its to do with respect for the person - and not suddenly expecting them to change the way they live and what they feel comfortable with because they got ill and were forced to go to hospital.
However it is good to have a flexible attitude - at one stage when i was in hospital we all got moved because the proportion of male and female changed so all the blokes needed to move into a differnet bay to maintain the separation of the sexes. That was a bit of a pain and a disruption - so a guess there will always be a judgement made as to whether its worth putting patients through the hassle of moving beds to keep the sexes segregated
mark
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lottie
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I am what is euphemistically called a lady of a certain age and probably an earthy sort of person but I'd probably be happier cutting my throat than using a bedpan or having some kind of personal examination with only a curtain/bay wall between me and a strange man----it certainly wouldn't help my recovery
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marigold
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I'm pretty stoical about the indignities of essential medical procedures, but I'd loathe being in a ward with Other Ill People full stop and I absolutely dread having to stay in hospital. I vote for nice quiet, sparkling clean PRIVATE ROOMS with plentiful supplies of cheery staff who are paid properly and don't have to work stupidly long hours, access to whatever drugs and treatments are necessary without an exhausting fight, and a nice view of rolling hills and the sea in the distance. It would also be quite nice if all the staff spoke English in a way that I don't have to struggle to understand...
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Ian33568
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In this debate we musn't forget those who are in Psychiatric care. Mixed wards cause multiple problems for both men and women. Caring for emotionally vulnerable people is rarely compatible with a mixed sex environment.
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jema
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| marigold wrote: | | I'm pretty stoical about the indignities of essential medical procedures, but I'd loathe being in a ward with Other Ill People full stop and I absolutely dread having to stay in hospital. I vote for nice quiet, sparkling clean PRIVATE ROOMS with plentiful supplies of cheery staff who are paid properly and don't have to work stupidly long hours, access to whatever drugs and treatments are necessary without an exhausting fight, and a nice view of rolling hills and the sea in the distance. It would also be quite nice if all the staff spoke English in a way that I don't have to struggle to understand... |
I'd really like to see a world wide study that looked at the true actual cost of care in good conditions compared to bad. I really wonder what the results would be when you take into account shorter stays, better recovery, lack of MRSA and so on.
I have fortunately only had one NHS stay, and I was there because of bad diagnosis and I was less than impressed with the care, between the filth and the haphazard nature of the treatment I counted myself lucky to get out and not go back.
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marigold
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| jema wrote: | | marigold wrote: | | I'm pretty stoical about the indignities of essential medical procedures, but I'd loathe being in a ward with Other Ill People full stop and I absolutely dread having to stay in hospital. I vote for nice quiet, sparkling clean PRIVATE ROOMS with plentiful supplies of cheery staff who are paid properly and don't have to work stupidly long hours, access to whatever drugs and treatments are necessary without an exhausting fight, and a nice view of rolling hills and the sea in the distance. It would also be quite nice if all the staff spoke English in a way that I don't have to struggle to understand... |
I'd really like to see a world wide study that looked at the true actual cost of care in good conditions compared to bad. I really wonder what the results would be when you take into account shorter stays, better recovery, lack of MRSA and so on.
I have fortunately only had one NHS stay, and I was there because of bad diagnosis and I was less than impressed with the care, between the filth and the haphazard nature of the treatment I counted myself lucky to get out and not go back. |
Yeah, surely it would save a LOT of money (and misery and stress) if people were treated promptly instead of waiting months for a diagnosis (during which time their condition becomes harder to treat), if people didn't catch something worse than their original ailment during treatment and staff could spend their time exercising their skills instead of filling in arse-covering forms. Etcetera.
It would be nice too, if people took more responsibility for their own health and, for example, didn't get so pissed on a Saturday night that paramedics and A&E departments have to waste resources on rescuing them from their own stupidity.
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mark
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Oh yes privatising and contracting out the NARS (National Alcohol Recovery Service) might save the NHS a lot of money!
Mind you you would look after and sober up the hospital staff then??
Mark
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Rosemary Judy
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I think the huge number of veiws expressed on here reflect the veiws of the population in general - some people would rather die ( and that is actually the choice they are making ) and others are actually okay with mixed sex wards.
I would rather be treated by skilled and expert staff in whatever condition I have - so if I have a heart attack I want to be on a Coronary Care Unit that is properly equipped and staffed- and doesn't have to send MY NURSE to the mens CCU cos it is short staffed today......
I work in an Eating Disorders Unit that has just become part of a Womens Unit - so what are we to do with the men with advanced anorexia nervosa, whose lives we used to save ?
We are in the process of getting permission from the regulating body to admitt men again - but we also have single rooms, lots of staff, and a fantastic cleaner and a very good chef !
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mark
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I may be wrong think coronary care and intensive care are exempted from the single sex ward targets...
As far as I can see no-one is asking for those to be single sex.
Anyway like i said i don't mind mixed sex. But PLEASE do segregate me from any patients who have visitors with out of control children....
Mark
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Marionb
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I get the impression that whilst men wouldnt mind being on a mixed ward, women, on the other hand, would prefer to be on a same sex ward.
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Northern_Lad
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So, men are inclusive, tollerant people, women are irrational isolationists?
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dpack
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i will happily share a ward with warthogs if we get good medicine
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Jamanda
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| Northern_Lad wrote: | | So, men are inclusive, tollerant people, women are irrational isolationists? |
Which is probably the thought pattern behind the thinking of the people who made the decisions to have mixed wards in the first place.
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Rob R
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| Marionb wrote: | I get the impression that whilst men wouldnt mind being on a mixed ward, women, on the other hand, would prefer to be on a same sex ward.
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Nope, I want a room to myself, preferably with a view. Failing that, as long as they keep to their side of the curtain I can respect most people.
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bernie-woman
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| dpack wrote: | | i will happily share a ward with warthogs if we get good medicine |
I agree - I was put onto a mixed ward when last in hospital which was a few years ago and quite enjoyed it  but I can see why some people would find it uncomfortable and also why on some wards there ought to be single sex accommodation
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mark
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| Marionb wrote: | I get the impression that whilst men wouldnt mind being on a mixed ward, women, on the other hand, would prefer to be on a same sex ward.
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Ithink you need to understand the different menbtal processes that go on in men and women when they hear the words "mixed ward"
MEN: mixed ward = beautiful babe in next bed to me who will think I am am handsome and wonderful despite fact I am on death's door.
WOMEN mixed ward = some old geyser in the next bed to me who will fart and belch all night and keep the telly tuned into the football and sport , and hog the remote control.
and on the remote chance I do end up next to a gorgeous hunk I definitely don't want him to see me with no make up and hair dishevelled first thng in the morning !!
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Marionb
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| mark wrote: | | Marionb wrote: | I get the impression that whilst men wouldnt mind being on a mixed ward, women, on the other hand, would prefer to be on a same sex ward.
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Ithink you need to understand the different menbtal processes that go on in men and women when they hear the words "mixed ward"
MEN: mixed ward = beautiful babe in next bed to me who will think I am am handsome and wonderful despite fact I am on death's door.
WOMEN mixed ward = some old geyser in the next bed to me who will fart and belch all night and keep the telly tuned into the football and sport , and hog the remote control.
and on the remote chance I do end up next to a gorgeous hunk I definitely don't want him to see me with no make up and hair dishevelled first thng in the morning !! |
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Rob R
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| mark wrote: | MEN: mixed ward = beautiful babe in next bed to me who will think I am am handsome and wonderful despite fact I am on death's door.
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Men that have some fantasy view of being in hospital.  That's what doctors/nurses are for. 
Last time I was in hospital it was a mixed ward & it was akin to being in a hotel.
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Behemoth
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| Rob R wrote: | | Last time I was in hospital it was a mixed ward & it was akin to being in a hotel. |
I didn't know you'd been to Khazakstan.
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Chez
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| lottie wrote: | | ... I'd probably be happier cutting my throat than using a bedpan or having some kind of personal examination with only a curtain/bay wall between me and a strange man----it certainly wouldn't help my recovery |
Here too.
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Rob R
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| Chez wrote: | | lottie wrote: | | ... I'd probably be happier cutting my throat than using a bedpan or having some kind of personal examination with only a curtain/bay wall between me and a strange man----it certainly wouldn't help my recovery |
Here too. |
Here too. 
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mark
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| gnome wrote: | it's true that a lot of older people would be more stressed by a mixed ward - feeling that it is embarrasing and an afront to their dignity.
but a lot of older people are also rather racist, (i know my parents are) and would feel the same sense of afront to their dignity if they were put next to a person of another race. so by the same arguement, should we have aparthied wards? from what i can gather, trying to manage non-mixed wards can be a logistical nightmare, and sometimes by necesity someone would have to be put into a ward of the opposite sex because of a space problem that could be more of a problem than a ward that is meant to be mixed anyway. |
ok so i are single sex toilets or changing rooms apartheid?
I can't believe you can come up with such an inappropriate analogy
or so trivialise the real evil of rascism by comparing it with the widely accepted need to privacy between the sexes when attending to personal needs .
I f i go to the supernmarket i get single sex toilets, if i go to a youth hostel they can organise single sex rooms! Even the swimming baths organise some privacy for changing. Why this should be beyond the whit of the NHS is beyond me.
And don't give me any bull about funding. I have enough knowledge of working with public bodies to know that NHS projects always seem have more funding than council or social services and carry higher rates of pay.
When the consultants and the hospitawl managers and the politicians agree to share single sex facilities only then do they have credibility in asking the same of their patients
Mark
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Rob R
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| mark wrote: | ok so i are single sex toilets or changing rooms apartheid?
I can't believe you can come up with such an inappropriate analogy
or so trivialise the real evil of rascism by comparing it with the widely accepted need to privacy between the sexes when attending to personal needs . |
Originally it was put forward that it was to do with the older generations wishes, the above comments rather take that out of context.
And some people believe sexism & racism are on a par in terms of evilness.
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lottie
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| Rob R wrote: | | mark wrote: | ok so i are single sex toilets or changing rooms apartheid?
I can't believe you can come up with such an inappropriate analogy
or so trivialise the real evil of rascism by comparing it with the widely accepted need to privacy between the sexes when attending to personal needs . |
Originally it was put forward that it was to do with the older generations wishes, the above comments rather take that out of context.
And some people believe sexism & racism are on a par in terms of evilness. |
I can't really see that not wanting mixed wards on grounds of modesty or personal dignity is in any way sexist---objecting to sharing a ward with someone of the same sex because of their race, creed or colour is definitely objectionable
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Rob R
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That is only because we live in a society that believes segregation of the sexes is acceptable in that way. It's a question of perspective. If our society viewed race in the same way you wouldn't see any problem with racially seperate wards- and some people still don't.
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lottie
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I'm quite happy to share a dormitory and toilet facilities with a mixed sex group---just not when I'm possibly having embarrassing or intrusive stuff going on---sexism is a different thing altogether
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Rob R
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Then it's an issue of how that ward is managed, not wether it is a mixed ward or not.
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mark
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| Rob R wrote: | | That is only because we live in a society that believes segregation of the sexes is acceptable in that way. It's a question of perspective. If our society viewed race in the same way you wouldn't see any problem with racially seperate wards- and some people still don't. |
The major difference is that apartheid is the powerful decreeing that they don't want to share their facitlies with the poorer and weaker and less powerful.
The call for single sex wards largely comes from women who feel sexually vulnerable when forced to by medical necessity to be exposed in the presence of strange males.
The "power balance" is entirely different
Possibly the reason why many men can't see the problem is that we we do not feel similarly vulnerable in those circumstances.
The dynamics of sexuality and racial segregation are quite different.
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lottie
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Put so much more elegantly than me Mark but that was exactly what I meant.
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Rob R
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| mark wrote: | Possibly the reason why many men can't see the problem is that we we do not feel similarly vulnerable in those circumstances.
The dynamics of sexuality and racial segregation are quite different. |
No they are not, the way you view them are different, it's the same reason.
In certain situations, yes there is a sexual element & those cases should be treated differently, but on the whole it is all about personal perception & management. Some people in our society still have that personal perception about race, which was the point that was picked up on.
Personally, as a man, I would feel a loss of dignity if I was treated as poorly in front of a strange woman or a strange man, sex or sexuality is not the issue & I have no inbuilt differentiation between the two. This is not a case of not seeing the problem, it's a case of actually seeing the problem from a different angle.
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Jamanda
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It's not just about being treated poorly. The only time I was ever in hospital I was in an obs and gynae ward and then a maternity ward which were by definition all female. I was treated perfectly well, though some of my treatment was a tad undignified, it didn't bother me unduly. If there had been a strange bloke possibly peering through the cracks in the curtains it would have be exponentially worse.
And as I said earlier, I would feel very vulnerable at night in a mixed ward. Drips and catheters make you feel very vulnerable too. This is not about poor treatment. It's about the bits in-between the treatment too.
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lottie
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I Just love the ones where you have to put on a hospital gown which fastens down the back and some sadistic nurse has carefully selected the one suited to a midget and then expects you to walk with your nether regions on display past a mixed group of other patients to the room where you are having the procedure. 
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Rob R
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They should come under specialist areas though, surely.
If there was any possibility of a strange bloke peering through the cracks at me I would feel equally worse as some strange women peering. I don't care which sex you are, certain procedures should not be carried out in such circumstances and there shouldn't be cracks in the curtains (that's really the kind of thing that constitutes part of being treated poorly) during treatment, else I would complain (being a very private person myself and maybe my view is slightly different because I've been in hospital more times than the average person, though all of it what I would term non-gender specific reasons).
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lottie
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I've had more ops than the average---both gender specific and general----I am not in the least a prissy person--but I feel vulnerable enough being in hospital and feeling a loss of control----at it's most basic some people can become confused when ill and I'd rather be confronted by a confused woman at 3 in the morning when I'm hooked up to a drip than a confused bloke----ideally of course I don't want either.
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Rob R
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I think the level of management required goes up extremely quickly the more diverse the group becomes. The last mixed ward I was on was very well managed, and patients of either sex were not thrown in any old how. There should still be adequate provision of single sex wards & private rooms in any hospital, though.
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mark
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| Rob R wrote: |
Personally, as a man, I would feel a loss of dignity if I was treated as poorly in front of a strange woman or a strange man, sex or sexuality is not the issue & I have no inbuilt differentiation between the two. This is not a case of not seeing the problem, it's a case of actually seeing the problem from a different angle. |
That is because you like me are a man .
women see things differently - please read the womens posts here - nearly all the women say they don't want mixed wards though the blokes say they don't mind.
i guess what is racist is when white men tell black people what they should want and assume we know best and don't listen to what they actualy want.
in one way you are right - it is the same with women - men telling them they are being stupid for wanting their privacy
I work with deaf peole - they usually say they don't want integrated mainstream schooling - because they know they get teased and picked on and teachers don't respect and use their language (sign language) as they do English.
But some people thing division is wrong so deaf kids end up in an environment where they are left out, bullied and bottom of the pile - and can't communicate with their peers
In Tibet the Chinese don't listen to the fact the the people of Tibet want to manage their own affairs. We are all one they say. Why should you want to have this racist segregation,
Mark
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Chez
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I think (and this is a *sweeping* generalisation) that many men do not appreciate how threatening it can feel for many women to be in a situation with men one doesn't know. This is exponentially worse when one is ill and one is more vulnerable.
Feeling threatened like this is cultural and it would be good to break out of it. But it doesn't mean that for many women it isn't true. When one is ill isn't the time to be addressing those kind of deep-seated social fears.
My Pa has been on a mixed ward recently. But the ward was divided in to bays with proper walls, four same-sex patients to a bay and separate-sex facilities. A good compromise, I thought.
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Rob R
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| mark wrote: | | Rob R wrote: |
Personally, as a man, I would feel a loss of dignity if I was treated as poorly in front of a strange woman or a strange man, sex or sexuality is not the issue & I have no inbuilt differentiation between the two. This is not a case of not seeing the problem, it's a case of actually seeing the problem from a different angle. |
That is because you like me are a man .
women see things differently - please read the womens posts here - nearly all the women say they don't want mixed wards though the blokes say they don't mind.
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No, you haven't read my posts, I've agreed with most of the womens comments on here thus far, I feel the same as the women you've referred to, not differently. My point is that I don't get the option, because I'm a man.
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Jamanda
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No Rob - You have said you would feel equally bad if a strange man or woman saw you in a compromising situation. Most of the women have said it would be bad enough if a woman saw them, but worse if it were a man.
Did you understand what i said about the sleeping thing? It would be less than ideal for any of to sleep next to a stranger, but for women it would be worse if that stranger was a man.
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Rob R
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| Chez wrote: | | My Pa has been on a mixed ward recently. But the ward was divided in to bays with proper walls, four same-sex patients to a bay and separate-sex facilities. A good compromise, I thought. |
Compromise? I've only ever been in hospitals set out like that- don't tell me there are still some out there with the Carry on style wards of the sixties? 
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Chez
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| Rob R wrote: | | No, you haven't read my posts, I've agreed with most of the womens comments on here thus far, I feel the same as the women you've referred to, not differently. My point is that I don't get the option, because I'm a man. |
About being treated poorly in front of strange men, you mean? I think that just makes it worse - of course losing ones dignity in front of *anyone* is horrible. It took me five years of marriage and a crummy pregnancy before I was comfortable throwing up in front of Arvo  . I think it's the base-level of vulnerability, even when one is *not* ill that chaps sometimes find difficult to empathise with. Although, I am making an assumption there that as a man you don't have that, which might be completely incorrect.
Gender politics is all so pointless - moving towards a society were we all just see each other initially as people rather than defining ourselves by our twiddly bits would be great. I think we're getting there - but we have all this legacy to deal with.
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Chez
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| Rob R wrote: | | Chez wrote: | | My Pa has been on a mixed ward recently. But the ward was divided in to bays with proper walls, four same-sex patients to a bay and separate-sex facilities. A good compromise, I thought. |
Compromise? I've only ever been in hospitals set out like that- don't tell me there are still some out there with the Carry on style wards of the sixties? |
Some of the geriatric wards various of my relatives have been in during the last decade have been like that. I think you're right though, they are being phased out. And possibly, geriatric wards aren't given as much funding as medical ones?
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Rob R
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| Jamanda wrote: | | No Rob - You have said you would feel equally bad if a strange man or woman saw you in a compromising situation. Most of the women have said it would be bad enough if a woman saw them, but worse if it were a man. |
That's true, sorry, the women would feel better if it is a woman who compromises their privacy, whereas I don't have that same feeling if it were a man, fair point.
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Jamanda
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| Rob R wrote: | | Jamanda wrote: | | No Rob - You have said you would feel equally bad if a strange man or woman saw you in a compromising situation. Most of the women have said it would be bad enough if a woman saw them, but worse if it were a man. |
That's true, sorry, the women would feel better if it is a woman who compromises their privacy, whereas I don't have that same feeling if it were a man, fair point. |
I think you just turned what I said upside down
Ideally we would all get private rooms of course. If that's not possible, would it make any difference to you what gender the person in the next bed was?
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Rob R
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| Chez wrote: | | Some of the geriatric wards various of my relatives have been in during the last decade have been like that. I think you're right though, they are being phased out. And possibly, geriatric wards aren't given as much funding as medical ones? |
Possibly, we don't treat old nearly as well as we should in this country 
I remember the transition from being in children's wards/clinics to adult ones was quite a shock, there seemed to be hardly anyone anywhere in the middle.
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Chez
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| Rob R wrote: |
I remember the transition from being in children's wards/clinics to adult ones was quite a shock, there seemed to be hardly anyone anywhere in the middle. |
And for a young woman going on to a mixed ward, that shock would probably be even more disorienting.
Hypothetically, would you want your sixteen year old daughter to be in bed next to a fifty year old bloke, with her gown not doing up at the back?
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Rob R
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| Jamanda wrote: |
I think you just turned what I said upside down
Ideally we would all get private rooms of course. If that's not possible, would it make any difference to you what gender the person in the next bed was? |
Nope, just a different angle
Gender wouldn't bother me per se, state of health might concern me more, ordering the beds appropriately & not just sticking you in the next available space. I'd expect a high level of privacy, particularly if I was in a particularly vulnerable state.
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lottie
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Hospital situations are unfortunately like the rest of life---when my O.H was still at work he used to go for a walk every lunch hour---either along the riverbank to the left or the wood on the right---he was aware that when he encountered women walking/jogging/walking dogs they were wary/uncomfortable etc---so did his best to not be close when passing,try to look unthreatening etc---he wondered if he was being hypersensitive until a female member of staff came back upset from a riverbank encounter[ not with him--I hasten to edit]---the fact is women do very often feel vulnerable rightly or wrongly and that's what matters
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Jamanda
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| Rob R wrote: | | Jamanda wrote: |
I think you just turned what I said upside down
Ideally we would all get private rooms of course. If that's not possible, would it make any difference to you what gender the person in the next bed was? |
Nope, just a different angle
Gender wouldn't bother me per se, state of health might concern me more, ordering the beds appropriately & not just sticking you in the next available space. I'd expect a high level of privacy, particularly if I was in a particularly vulnerable state. |
That's what the thread's about Rob. It would bother most women immensely.
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Rob R
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| Chez wrote: | | Hypothetically, would you want your sixteen year old daughter to be in bed next to a fifty year old bloke, with her gown not doing up at the back? |
No, but how do you know about my daughter?
I wouldn't expect such a poor organisation of beds or gowns, but that also brings in age as well as gender to the equation...
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Rob R
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| Jamanda wrote: | | That's what the thread's about Rob. It would bother most women immensely. |
Yes, but the point was made that it should be because it bothers a particular generation more, which is the point at which other divisions could also affect those generations. I didn't disagree with these points, I just pointed it out.
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Chez
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I don't think age makes much difference - except, I suppose, the more elderly people are the more they are likely to be suffering from some kind of dementia. Pa's ward was incredibly noisy with all the shouting at night and the chap opposite him kept attempting to get his trousers off and flail his equipment around in the fresh air.
I do think that it's impossible for most blokes to understand how women feel - we are going round and round here, aren't we? . We are all saying 'women feel vulnerable around men, more so when they are sick' and you are saying (pretty much) 'well, I feel vulnerable in hospital when I am sick, too, that's the same'. And then we are saying 'it's not the same, you don't understand' .
Of course there are loads of other factors - age, type of illness, management of dignity, etc. etc. that need to be taken in to account as well. But the feelings and needs of 51% of the population shouldn't be disregarded because the other 49% don't feel the same way - we need a lowest common denominator that makes everyone happy. And it's not as if blokes feel uncomfortable on single-sex wards the way women do on mixed-sex ones.
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Rob R
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With all due respect you don't know how I feel in that situation, yet often it is automatically assumed that it can't be as bad because of my gender & a long standing stereotype.
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Chez
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| Rob R wrote: | | With all due respect you don't know how I feel in that situation, yet often it is automatically assumed that it can't be as bad because of my gender & a long standing stereotype. |
Oh yes, absolutely - I think I tried to make that point in my first post. I'm sorry if that didn't come across. I am completely aware that I am talking in generalisations and stereotypes here and I really hope I haven't offended you.
I think that's why the entire subject is such a difficult thing to address - a certain number of assumptions HAVE to be made by the NHS about what is best for people. And everyone is an individual with their own specific needs and feelings.
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Rob R
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No not at all, I didn't think you meant it like that, it's just the way we're all conditioned to think about the gender roles. In many cases it may be true, but in many ways that makes it even more difficult for certain issues to be dealt with by/about men, they are expected to behave in a certain way & often they do, not always in their best personal interests. It maybe doesn't come across very clearly from my posts, because it is hard drawing that comparison that isn't generally accepted. I'll stop this post now, I'm even confusing myself thinking it through exactly what I am trying to say.
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Jamanda
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I think I understand Rob. No one is saying men have fewer feelings or can't be dreadfully affronted by the indignities they might have to suffer in hospital. In fact the lack of dignity might well be worse for some men.
But women do still have all that, plus an extra layer of feeling sexually vulnerable.
Hence, while for everyone a private ward would be ideal, a single sex ward at least alleviates one set of worries for women.
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Chez
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I think I get a sense of what you are trying to say. It's also very hard to have this kind of discussion when there are no voice or visual cues to help get across what one is trying to.
I also think that more and more, men, particularly younger men, are more sensitive to the feelings of those around them - men and women - and that makes things easier in any kind of vulnerable hospital situation, mixed ward or same-sex ward.
And of *course* there are women that would make one feel uncomfortable in that situation, too.
But generalisations is all this kind of thread can deal in - and is the whole basis of the gender-stereotyping rubbish, too.
I am in bed and Betty has just brought in a live shrew and let it go in my pile of clean laundry, so I think I'll have to leave the thread here, too .
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Rob R
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I think you almost understand, let me think, I guess I am not sure how I am supposed to feel in that situation. It's that extra layer of feeling sexually vulnerable bit, I know that is true in many many cases, and I can relate to the evolutionary reasons why that has come about, but it seems to get in the way so much of women relating to men & vice versa. It makes me wonder how many men feel that way but are so conditioned by society that we assume a gender stance without evaluating the person. I see it in so many things, not just hospitals & wonder about that.
Anyway, back to the point, I don't think a mixed sexed ward is always appropriate, and where it is it requires an increased level of management (I wasn't aware at first that the old style wards are still in operation) and in any case a high level of privacy should be maintained throughout.
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Jamanda
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Fair enough.
I think it is almost always appropriate, especially if if it involves overnight stays. But I can see where you are coming from.
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Rob R
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| Chez wrote: | I think I get a sense of what you are trying to say. It's also very hard to have this kind of discussion when there are no voice or visual cues to help get across what one is trying to.
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Exactly right. It's quite difficult to do it without making oneself seem like a pillock (to both genders, for different reasons).
I'm afraid I have no shrew, but I needn't add further.
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Jamanda
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Can I say this has been a lovely thread to engage in? Two different view points, but complete respect on each side for the other's point of view. And no multiple quoting.
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Chez
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Yes, what Jamanda said.
You can have my shrew if you like, Rob .
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Rob R
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It has.
Edit: Aww thanks, I love shrews, prefer them out in the field though.
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gnome
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there is a simpe sollution, and all it takes is a little thought. hospital beds are on wheels - correct? if each ward had a moveable partition (not a great technical or expensve requirement) then it would be a simpe matter to seperate a ward into paritoned male and female sections, and put the bed where it is required. if there is not enough room for aother bedn - move the partition.
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Rob R
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Sounds sensible, coupled with ensuring that those who feel most vulnerable are not simply stuck in the next available space.
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gnome
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as long a they arent just left in a corridor and forgotten
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