| Archive for Downsizer For an ethical approach to consumption |
| Bebo |
My neighbour has offered me a cockNow wasn't that title a gift for NL and his cronies?!Our neighbours have a spare cock and have offered it to us for free. I like the idea of breeding my own chooks for replacement layers in the future and for meat. However, I have one problem. I'm a bit squeamish about plucking and drawing the bird myself. Anyone know if I can get this done at an abattoir or have any other advice on this? |
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| gil |
splutter | ||||
| Chez |
Can you find a friendly neighbour to do it for you and give them a couple of birds as a swap? I kill ours but I can't cope with plucking and dressing them - Arvo does that because he can't cope with killing them  .
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| Fee |
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| lottie |
Just gird yourself to do it the first time---telling yourself your birds have had a happier life than any you could buy---get a humane dispatcher---it honestly gets easier---and if you can't do it---do you feel comfortable eating meat someone else has killed?---that sounds sanctimonious but I honestly don't mean it that way---just the way I managed to do it the first time years ago | ||||
| lottie |
Sorry just realised you meant the preparation---me and my o.h. pluck together[hanging bird]---don't notice when you're chatting---if you are squeamish don't draw it till a lot later when it's cold---much easier than pulling warm innards if you're squeamish---I won't clean stuff hot from choice even now | ||||
| Nick |
Just swallow. |
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| Lorrainelovesplants |
I did the kill and prepare job for the first time 2 days ago with a child videoing it for a school project!!!
(RSPCA would have a field day) The young cockerels had all just started crowing and the noise was too much, so fed all sorts of delish goodies for a fortnight and read all I could on the web re despatch. Easy to wring neck? I think not. Think Ealing comedy.. Just when Ive geared up in a boiler suit, caught bird, taken round back, wrung it once...daughter tells me a customer has arrived. Ive a semi dead bird in one hand and she wont hold it, so I have to put head round hedge and say "Ill be with you in a mo" wrung neck again...its still blinking...get hoe and put bird on grass with hoe stick over neck and pull...almighty flapping of wings... "are you alright?" from the invisible customer "be with you dreckly" convinced bird is now dead(very purple head and floppy neck) I leave it on grass to deal with customer. Getting peace I eventually take bird into shed, hang upside down, cut throat (not much blood), take down, chop off head (still not a lot of blood), and then AS DIRECTED BY FRIEND EXPERT remove wings by twisting off and getting hand under skin remove skin on breast and pull breast meat from carcass. remove skin from rather meaty legs and cut off legs. All done in less than 10 mins, and boy do I need a cup of tea. Washed in cold water, put in fridge to rest overnight. Ate last night in a white wine sauce - lovely. Lorraine |
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| dougal |
My emphasis. |
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| Andrea |
Could someone explain to me exactly how a humane dispatcher works please? I've just googled them, but they just look like a pair of pliers to me ....
Thanks |
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| lottie |
put round neck under head and close---they break the neck and nerves and if you have the bird upside down they bleed into the neck----Solway feeders have some on special at the moment which will do from chicken up to goose and turkey | ||||
| Andrea |
So I wasn't far off thinking of them like pliers then! Thanks Lottie. |
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| VSS |
We have done lots of poultry over the years, and always pull the neck by hand (well the OH does it because my arms are not long enough). I have seen several instances of humane despatchers not doing very humane jobs, therefore although it sounds unpleasant, it is probably down to practice.
I ALWAYS pluck the bird as soon as possible after killing and then gut as soon as the plucking is done. Get the job finished. Just finished a batch of 11 ducks this morning. |
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| lottie |
Before I got a dispatcher we used to shoot them in the back of the head with an air rifle--as you know they stay still if held upside down then cut the head off immediately---prefer the humane dispatcher----I always pluck straight away but sometimes clean the next day---we tend to kill in the evening--having lifted them in the morning with just water in the day | ||||
| vanessa |
Our French neighbours offered to teach me how to do it all, so we took our 5 young coqs up a couple of weeks ago. MOH left after the first one was dispatched, but I stayed the distance.
They hung the birds up by their feet, stunned them with a blow to the back of the head, then bled them from the roof of the mouth. No idea how humane this method is? However, all but one bird died instantly and didn't seen to suffer at all. The one was an invicible bird anyway - had already survived a prolonged plucking-session by our dog!! Next time, I will be expected to participate ... I have already decided that, when doing them alone, I will start off by only doing ONE at a time ... so if I find it too tiring, I won't have to struggle on with half a dozen! |
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| Chez |
We both find it tiring - I kill (broom-handle method, surprising how much strength it needs, even with a lever), Arvo plucks and dresses. This time though I'm going to pluck as well and work up to dressing them out at some point in the future. |
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| fenwoman |
I cannot be blase about any animal suffering. If I wasn't 100% confident I could kill instantly, I wouldn't attempt to kill until someone had shown me exactly what to do. Personally I use decapitation. Calm bird, instant death no problem. The very thought of causing great pain and terror and death taking several minutes is just not acceptable to me. | ||||
| bodger |
A humane dispenser is a wee bit expensive for one bird.
The killing of the bird is all part of rearing the creature for the table I'm afraid. |
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| dpack |
pull n twist | ||||
| fenwoman |
Sure, how hard to pull, which way to twist? I know howand you know how, but trying to tell someone how to do it is a bit like telling someone how to drive a car. If they've never done it before, nor seen it done, almost impossible to understand instructions. Perhaps it might be a good 'sticky' to place ont he site here. People who can kill a chicken, offering their services as a teacher of how to do it and pluck and dress too. Perhaps a map with little marks where we all are? I am more than happy to demonstrate either neck pull or decapitation (my preferred method) within a 10 mile radius of my home. You will have to supply your own cockerel though. |
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| tahir |
Interesting idea, not sure if it's feasible |
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| vanessa |
Fenwoman, interesting you favour decapitation, as that's the method I'd pretty-much decided on ... until our neighbours got in on the act!! Is your chopper "weighty" as well as sharp? Is it a kitchen chopper or more of an axe? | ||||
| Bebo |
The new cock is now installed with his nine ladies. At the moment we don't have the time or inclination to incubate any eggs, but we probably will next year. The killing wasn't really the issue as I've got someone nearby who will show us how to do it - or we might just go down the decapitation route (I gather a bin lid to trap the bird and a swift chop finishes things quite efficiently). It was more the dressing (and to a certain extent the plucking) that I was worried about. | ||||
| vanessa |
Plucking is quite easy. Plunge the bird into boiling-hot water for a few seconds, and the feathers come out really easily. The hard ones round the wings and tail may be harder to pluck out. Drawing the bird ... get someone to show you, a few times. It's not particularly difficult, but there is clearly a knack to it. | ||||
| crofter |
Either will do.
Pliers. |
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| fenwoman |
I prefer to use a heavy cleaver as you have more blade length to work with. Less chance of missing. I have a sharpening stone and I sharpen it each and every time I use it for one bird. It's like a razor. Zero chance of anything going wrong like with the neck pull, "did I do it right?" "Is it dead or did I just dislocate it and cause it suffering". Head off=dead with no chance of it coming round, waking up,recovering etc. An old lady I once knew used to put the bird into a sack with a corner cut off the bottom. In goes the bird which immediately pops it's head out towards the light. Sack is tied so bird is immobile, lay neck on a bit of timber and wallop. Since the body is contained within a sack it cannot run off, thrash about too much and bruise the meat etc. For myself, I start with birds which have been handled so don't struggle. I built a chopping block using a large chunk of oak. I hammered 2 6 inch nails, an inch apart and tapered into a V shape.I made a loop of old coat hanger wire and attached to one nail which could be hooked around the other nail. It just holds the bird still. They don't struggle in any case if you take your time and work slowly. I place the bird in position with the neck between the 2 nails, and fasten the wire. I stroke the bird and talk to it to keep it calm, concentrate strongly on whare you will strike and , still talking to the bird, lift the cleaver and strike swift, hard and true. Takes some concentration and you cannot hesitate or change your mind. If I ever had a bird which struggled, I would use the sack method which is what I plan to use with the turkeys this year. If I am to cull bantam cockerels I put a breeze block in front of the chopping block as they only have short legs so need a lift. I found this rather useful site. http://www.themodernhomestead.us/article/Butchering-Killing.html |
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| lowri |
If it's young cockerels (lots of) or something for a stewpot, don't bother with plucking, skin them whilst still warm, much easier to dispose of the feathers, too, all in one piece. | ||||
| vanessa |
Thank you Fenwoman - excellent detail, that'll help no end. I must admit I like the sound of the sack method! Am now on the look-out for a sturdy sack!! 
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| crofter |
Another alternative is a large plastic container with a cone shaped top with the top cut to make a hole large enough for the chickens neck. |
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| fenwoman |
If you cannot find a hessian sack a good strong pillowcase would do. |
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| fenwoman |
I'm not sure this would work as you have to lay it down on the floor in order to place the bird's neck on the wooden chopping block. Killing cones are used for the stun/throat cut method but I'm always afraid that I won't stun properly hence my preference. |
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| Tradbritfowlco |
you do ducks via neck wringing? I usually use a broomstick for chickens and assumed this would work (i preferred the idea to the stunning with a hammer and throat cutting traditionally used in my family) but I didn;t have the stength even with the stick, let alone by hand alone  It was a horrible experience and the ducks in that batch are still in the garden! cant bring myself to try again!
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| dpack |
chooks can have strong necks
i have quite a good grip but would not try a big duck or turkey by hand my gran used a coat hanger as a crook then slid the big,sharp knife along the wire to remove the head in one sweep somwhere in the ds archive is a huge thread on chook dispatch with pictures and details of various ways with chickens i prefer when a cuddle gets lethal instantly as i suspect that when done well the pull n twist causes instant loss of consiousness due to damage to both the spinal chord but also to the medulla oblongata where brain meets spine whereas i have seen neatly severed heads that show signs of awareness for some time ,possible cos an undamaged brain is killed by oxygen starvation over time rather than mechanical trauma my thoughts on the industrial dangle and electricute are not suitable for a family site |
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| fenwoman |
Any so called signs of life are simply nerves. If the spinal cord (chord is something musical) is severed by a neck pull, then they are severed just the same by decapitation. Think about it. there is no evidence to suggest that the brain lives once blood stops flowing to it or blood pressure drops immediately the head is severed. It always bugs me when I hear the same nonsense trotted out about decapitation, brain being alive, bird being aware etc, by sane rational people, who don't stop to think that neck break or head severe, the result is the same, immediate stopping of blood flow to brain bringing immediate death or unconsiousness just like if you suffer a huge shock and your blood pressure drops, you pass out. If anything, I would worry about neck dislocation alone since I know several people (was born into a biking family, been around bikes and bikers all my life) who have had dislocated necks, broken necks and still live. I will carry on decapitating with my razor sharp axe, safe in the knowledge that death is instant no matter that the eyes may blink, the legs may paddle and the wings flap. All of those are simple nerves. |
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| Nick |
Actually, there's plenty of evidence and current medical thinking is the head remains aware and alive for around 13 seconds following decapitation. Early studies, generally poorly recorded and debated, started by the inventors and perfectors of the guillotine. Without fresh oxygen and blood, the brain has around 13 seconds of energy to survive, and will do. This is for a human head. I'm unaware of any studies on chickens. So, a chopped off head CAN think about it, although, not for long.
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| fenwoman |
So if the head is alive and thinking for 13 seconds when decapitated, how can this possibly be any different to breaking the spinal cord by neck stretch? I would like to see definative data proving what you just said. Medical thinking is simply thinking and however much I might 'think' that I am still pretty or that I am witty and intelligent, no amount of thinking will make this fact (I wish). There is no way it can be possible. Head severed, heart cannot pump blood to brain, immediate and devastating loss of blood pressure would not make it possible for the animal to be concious and thinking for 13 seconds let alone 3 seconds. Have you ever fainted? I have, lots, I suffered from very low blood pressure when I was young and the slightest thing like cutting my finger, knocking myself etc would cause a fast drop in blood pressure and I dropped unconcious like a stone. It never went so low as to be life threatening of course but enough to starve my brain of blood and oxygen and render me unconscious. Balance this argument with the fact that plenty of humans suffer broken necks and still survive although perhaps paralyzed. I cannot comprehend how it can be argued that broken vertebrae and blood vessels by one method will cause instant death but by a different method even though the vertebrae are still broken as are the same blood vessels, the animal can still be conscious and 'alive'. If someone can explain this to me with definative evidence rather than 'thinking', I will turn vegetarian. On a similar subject a few months ago, on countryfile I heard a scientist explain with conviction that fish do not feel pain as they have only small brains. If the size of the brain decides the ability to feel pain or not then most fowl should not feel pain, turkeys in particular. Of course we all know this is not the case but he sounded pretty convincing. Needless to say another scientist argued against this theory and sounded equally convincing. My 'A' level in human biology might be very old but the principles of the effects of blood pressure on brain activity surely has not changed in 35 years? |
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| Nick |
The remaining phosphate and cytochromes in the brain can supply energy for that time. It's nothing to do with blood pressure, in this immediate short term. This is amply demonstrated in every lab that grows cells in petri dishes (including nerve cells).
I wouldn't say it's any different to the affect of a neck break/decapitation. I wasn't arguing that, merely stating that death isn't that instant, even during decapitation. I have no idea what you learnt in biology in the early 70's, but I do know that our understanding of science has changed and improved dramatically since then. I'd still guess, however, that seperation of the head and body, either with a sharp knife, or lengthy dislocation, is the closest to instant death we have. And probably the most important bit is the minimisation of stress until that point (no chasing round the paddock for 30 minutes...)
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| vanessa |
Just to stick in my bit about decapitation and death in humans ... they knew this (the delay between decapitation and complete death of the brain) when they used the guillotine - so held the severed head up to show it it's body (insert puking smiley!).
HOWEVER I agree 100% that decaptiation has to be a cleaner death than (and in very experienced hands, as clean as) breaking the neck. I cannot imagine that either way, a chicken brain contains enough of the chemicals to sustain brain activity for as long as a large human brain ... |
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| Nick |
...or would, in any way at all, use as many chemicals as a much larger human head, of course. | ||||
| fenwoman |
Sadly there is no 'nice' way to take a life is there  We have to do what we think is the best way. As you say, chasing about beforehand is bad news and I have always maintained that my aim is to offer not only a pain free death (as far as I am able to tell) but a fear free one.
If the last mental thought of any animal in the seconds immediately before death, is one of terror, then quite simply I could never eat meat again. At least I know with mine that I am doing what I believe to be the best method, no mistakes, no "is it or isn't it dead", nothing drawn out or escaping maimed and afraid but still alive. One swift chop after first calming and kind words is the only way I can compromise between my need to kill surplus cockerels and my sentimental feelings. I rear all my own birds mainly in my study in incubators and brooders so they are fairly tame and don't panic when I pick them up and stand them in position.They have no reason to fear me. I sharpen the axe with a whetstone between each chopping and it is razor sharp. In my own mind I am confident that my method causes no undue suffering,pain or fear. I just hope I am correct. In the face of a lack of clear and definate data telling me otherwise I will accept this to be the case. It isn't a job I enjoy but I would enjoy even less, being a vegetarian and the alternative to my rearing and killing my own poultry will never be to buy poultry reared and slaughtered on an industrial scale as this is totally unacceptable to my belief in animal welfare. It's been an interesting discussion though. |
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| fenwoman |
this is not necessarily true. They held the head up to show the onlookers that it was off the body. I don't think scientists 250 years ago could be quoted with any confidence as knowing for sure that a severed head could actually see or was still conscious.
After hearing horror stories about humane killers crushing vertebrae and the bird still living, and hearing tales of birds being plucked and regaining consciousness and birds running away with the head bent right over and thinking to myself that in cases like this the pain and terror must be unimaginable, I came to the same conclusion as yourself. No errors, no what if, no oops, let's try again. Head off = dead with no recovery. |
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| VSS |
For gawd sakes, I wouldn't have thought a thread could go on so long about killing a chicken! Just wring their necks! Stretch - bend - pull. Job done. Decapitation is messy. forget it, unless you don't mind getting covered in blood while you're plucking. | ||||
| Cathryn |
The End. | ||||
| Bebo |
Didn't even start off about killing a chicken.............I was only asking about gutting and plucking. | ||||
| sean |
It's stayed remarkably on topic for a thread here. Does nobody want to post something gratuitously rude about Northern Lad? | ||||
| Cathryn |
What that sweet boy? They wouldn't... 
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| fenwoman |
I have never got covered in blood yet. At worst I might get a couple of drops on my wellies but that's it. I chop, tie legs, suspend from washing line, take out flight and tail feathers then leave to hang for 24 hours before plucking the rest. Any blood just drips on the ground. |
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| VSS |
Umm..I can't help but think that the whole grim business of the sack, the wire, the nails and the chopper are a macabre sacrifice ritual intended to make the operator feel better about it all. I don't suppose the chicken likes it very much!
In my experience (and I've got lots - self sufficient in meat for over 20 years!) the more you try to distance yourself from the act, by using mechanical aids, the more likely it is to go wrong. |
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| fenwoman |
And ripping neck vertebrae apart with your bare hands is somehow noble and the chicken likes it? In 30 years of keeping and killing spare cockerels I have never had anything go wrong.As far as the killing of my pigs and goats I let the abbatoir do the job legally, efficiently. I attempt to do the job as efficiently and fear/pain free as possible. The sole reason I use 'mechanical aids' imasmuch my chopping block and a sharp axe, is that I could not be certain to do the job efficiently using my bare hands alone. Since you abhor mechanical aids so much , can I assume that you rip out the throats of larger meat animals like sheep and pigs with your teeth?And are strong enough to use your bare hands alone to break the neck of a young bullock? |
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| VSS |
Ok, ok, calm down.
Let's just agree on one thing - minimum stress. That's why I slaughter my animals at home (legally) in their familiar surroundings, with the minimum of paraphenalia and rigamarole. (Oh, and I've got very strong hands...) |
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| fenwoman |
I'm perfectly calm. Are you not?
Well if you are able to legalls do it at home for your own personal use, which would mean in any case that you won't do more than a beast or two per year, and if you don't use mechanicals aids then fine. I can't understand how one could kill a bullock or sheep or pig without the use of a captive bolt pistol but I'm sure you will be happy to enlighten me. Since I personally am a very small old lady, I doubt very much that I would be physically able to restrain a goat or pig, then slaughter, even if I did have a captive bolt gun, and there is no way I could physically butcher such an animal and even if I could do all of the above, I'm sure one goats or pig would last me all year and a bullock for several years. I'm happy using my sharp axe to achieve a job I wouldn't have enough strength in my arthritic hands and wrists for. I know there is no stress or fear or pain and that death is as instantaneous as I can make it. The only reason I ever use a sack is when I have a large bird to control and keep still for a clean chop, like I will be doing with the turkey I plan on culling shortly. And I'm still calm
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